3 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

You raise some good points.

Russia has seemed like an aggressor in many of these conflicts that have arisen since the fall of the Soviet Union.  And before that, it was the Cold War.  So Western Civilization has grown accustomed to viewing Russia as "The enemy" and this has been going on for 3-4 generations.  "It's all we know" in a sense. 

But during WWII - Russia was the one that was invaded by Hitler and the NSDAPs and it was Russia that helped Europe and The U.S. secure victory over Hitler in Europe.  

So although you raise valid points in assuming that "Russia will just be at it again in a few years" - maybe so - maybe not - that still shouldn't stop Ukraine and its allies from seeking peace.  If something happens in 5 years - it happens and it will be dealt with them - but from now until then, hundreds of thousands of lives and billions in resources could be saved.

And who knows - with the right type of leaders in place (like the ones you mentioned, who had successful relations with Russia) it could last much longer than that. 

 

You are of course right that Russia was invaded by Germany in WWII, but Russia wasn’t some peace loving nation during that time. Before the invasion, both countries signed the Hitler/Stalin Pact, which allowed them to divide up Polen between the two countries. Hitler broke the treaty and invaded Russia. In his view, he basically wanted to beat  Stalin to the punch, as war between both sides would eventually happen anyway. Stalin and Hitler were on the same level of evil. 
 

15 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

You raise some good points.

Russia has seemed like an aggressor in many of these conflicts that have arisen since the fall of the Soviet Union.  And before that, it was the Cold War.  So Western Civilization has grown accustomed to viewing Russia as "The enemy" and this has been going on for 3-4 generations.  "It's all we know" in a sense. 

But during WWII - Russia was the one that was invaded by Hitler and the NSDAPs and it was Russia that helped Europe and The U.S. secure victory over Hitler in Europe.  

So although you raise valid points in assuming that "Russia will just be at it again in a few years" - maybe so - maybe not - that still shouldn't stop Ukraine and its allies from seeking peace.  If something happens in 5 years - it happens and it will be dealt with them - but from now until then, hundreds of thousands of lives and billions in resources could be saved.

And who knows - with the right type of leaders in place (like the ones you mentioned, who had successful relations with Russia) it could last much longer than that. 

 

And what do you mean when you say "seemed like an aggressor”? Is there any other way to see it when they attack / invade another country?

Just now, Frankfurteagle89 said:

You are of course right that Russia was invaded by Germany in WWII, but Russia wasn’t some peace loving nation during that time. Before the invasion, both countries signed the Hitler/Stalin Pact, which allowed them to divide up Polen between the two countries. Hitler broke the treaty and invaded Russia. In his view, he basically wanted to beat  Stalin to the punch, as war between both sides would eventually happen anyway. Stalin and Hitler were on the same level of evil. 
 

I don't necessarily disagree with that - I was pointing out that Russia has come to the aid of Europe/The West in the past - despite their vast differences; including their past leaders. Although not easy - it is possible to "work with" Russia - regardless of their leaders - in order to maintain peace (We did it for 50+ years through the Cold War without a single nuclear missile being launched)  - we should be able to do it now. 

Just now, Ace Nova said:

I don't necessarily disagree with that - I was pointing out that Russia has come to the aid of Europe/The West in the past - despite their vast differences; including their past leaders. Although not easy - it is possible to "work with" Russia - regardless of their leaders - in order to maintain peace (We did it for 50+ years through the Cold War without a single nuclear missile being launched)  - we should be able to do it now. 

Russia didn’t come to the aid of Europe - the west. They fought off NSDAP Germany and were aided by the US in form equipment/materials "lend/lease” to help fend off the invasion. As the tide turned, they pushed on until ending it in Berlin. Yes, it was a joint effort and accomplishment to rid Europe of the Imperialistic Germans, but not for the "come to aid of Europe/the west” you are suggesting.

2 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

And what do you mean when you say "seemed like an aggressor”? Is there any other way to see it when they attack / invade another country?

I wasn't speaking specifically of one event.  Obviously Russia was the aggressor when they invaded Ukraine. 

That said, not every conflict over the past 80 years is that simple - but we simplify the events because to us, Russia will seem like the aggressor and be at fault - regardless of the circumstances.  There are always two sides to every story/conflict etc - and although the other side may be wrong, we should always try to at least understand why?  How?  Their thought process, etc. 

Understanding why they did it could help in preventing it from happening again instead of just saying "they're bad guys, they've always done it and they'll do it again" - which won't solve anything, imo. 

23 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

Russia didn’t come to the aid of Europe - the west. They fought off NSDAP Germany and were aided by the US in form equipment/materials "lend/lease” to help fend off the invasion. As the tide turned, they pushed on until ending it in Berlin. Yes, it was a joint effort and accomplishment to rid Europe of the Imperialistic Germans, but not for the "come to aid of Europe/the west” you are suggesting.

Obviously Russia did it to defend themselves first and foremost but by doing that, they also aided The Allies in defeating Gernany in Europe.  They essentially annihilated the German Eastern front and dismantled Germany's military all the way to Berlin.   

Without Russia's involvement,  the war in Europe would have lasted longer and  continued until - sadly enough - Atomic Bombs would have been dropped over German controlled areas in Europe - causing hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of more casualties - with the aftermath and rebuild likely lasting years - possibly decades longer than it did. 

12 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

I wasn't speaking specifically of one event.  Obviously Russia was the aggressor when they invaded Ukraine. 

That said, not every conflict over the past 80 years is that simple - but we simplify the events because to us, Russia will seem like the aggressor and be at fault - regardless of the circumstances.  There are always two sides to every story/conflict etc - and although the other side may be wrong, we should always try to at least understand why?  How?  Their thought process, etc. 

Understanding why they did it could help in preventing it from happening again instead of just saying "they're bad guys, they've always done it and they'll do it again" - which won't solve anything, imo. 

We know why he wants to retake the Ukraine. It's not some mystery for Scoob and the gang to figure out. Stop trying to reframe this like Putin is just misunderstood. 

7 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

I wasn't speaking specifically of one event.  Obviously Russia was the aggressor when they invaded Ukraine. 

That said, not every conflict over the past 80 years is that simple - but we simplify the events because to us, Russia will seem like the aggressor and be at fault - regardless of the circumstances.  There are always two sides to every story/conflict etc - and although the other side may be wrong, we should always try to at least understand why?  How?  Their thought process, etc. 

Understanding why they did it could help in preventing it from happening again instead of just saying "they're bad guys, they've always done it and they'll do it again" - which won't solve anything, imo. 

Name one war that Russia has been involved in where they weren’t the aggressor. Just one. 

And let’s say that you want to understand their reasoning and thought process. How does it help you in knowing that their reasoning/thought process is to just take what they want and when they want? You’re giving these authoritarian dictators a benefit of the doubt and that’s the weakness they crave…

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

We know why he wants to retake the Ukraine. It's not some mystery for Scoob and the gang to figure out. Stop trying to reframe this like Putin is just misunderstood. 

I wasn't speaking specifically about Ukraine.  But since you are - why did Russia invade Ukraine, in your opinion? 

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

You raise some good points.

Russia has seemed like an aggressor in many of these conflicts that have arisen since the fall of the Soviet Union.  And before that, it was the Cold War.  So Western Civilization has grown accustomed to viewing Russia as "The enemy" and this has been going on for 3-4 generations.  "It's all we know" in a sense. 

But during WWII - Russia was the one that was invaded by Hitler and the NSDAPs and it was Russia that helped Europe and The U.S. secure victory over Hitler in Europe.  

So although you raise valid points in assuming that "Russia will just be at it again in a few years" - maybe so - maybe not - that still shouldn't stop Ukraine and its allies from seeking peace.  If something happens in 5 years - it happens and it will be dealt with them - but from now until then, hundreds of thousands of lives and billions in resources could be saved.

And who knows - with the right type of leaders in place (like the ones you mentioned, who had successful relations with Russia) it could last much longer than that. 

 

The Soviet Union also invaded Poland the same time Germany did. They had an agreement to carve it up.
 

The thing is western civilization stopped viewing Russia as the enemy during the 90s. They weren’t the bad guys again until recently. People like McCain and Romney got it, but nobody listened to them. 
 

And it’s not a maybe so, maybe not. They’re going to be. When someone tells you who they are, listen to them. 
 

Regardless, we do not have the right leaders in place right now. Any hope of anything is a pipe dream. 

 

Just now, Ace Nova said:

I wasn't speaking specifically about Ukraine.  But since you are - why did Russia invade Ukraine, in your opinion? 

Check the page count, we're at 900+ and counting. We've discussed it ad nauseum and the reason doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Blah, blah, blah, buffer zone with NATO countries, blah, blah, blah, former KGB officer wants reunification of Soviet empire, blah, blah, blah trying to save face and assert dominance on a global stage. 

The fact you think you're coming in here with some novel insight is hilarious if I'm being honest. Trying to talk to us like you understand the Ukrainian people better than anyone. Like I said, you're basically a child tugging on the sleeve of an adult trying to get attention. Do yourself a favor and get your information from somewhere else than Fox News or Tucker Carlson, not just for this topic, but for every other one. 

14 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Obviously Russia did it to defend themselves first and foremost but by doing that, they also aided The Allies in defeating Gernany in Europe.  They essentially annihilated the German Eastern front and dismantled Germany's military all the way to Berlin.   

Without Russia's involvement,  the war in Europe would have lasted longer and  continued until - sadly enough - Atomic Bombs would have been dropped over German controlled areas in Europe - causing hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of more casualties - with the aftermath and rebuild likely lasting years - possibly decades longer than it did. 

The Soviet Union didn’t help us, we helped them. We gave them a metric F ton of equipment. Huge orders of magnitude of equipment.
 

And no it wouldn’t have lasted decades longer. In August of 45 everyone in Munich and Berlin would have gotten a huge sun tan and that would have been that. 

11 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Obviously Russia did it to defend themselves first and foremost but by doing that, they also aided The Allies in defeating Gernany in Europe.  They essentially annihilated the German Eastern front and dismantled Germany's military all the way to Berlin.   

Without Russia's involvement,  the war in Europe would have lasted longer and  continued until - sadly enough - Atomic Bombs would have been dropped over German controlled areas in Europe - causing hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of more casualties - with the aftermath and rebuild likely lasting years - possibly decades longer than it did. 

Of course they had their part in defeating NSDAP Germany and bringing the war to a faster end. That’s not my issue. My impression of what you were / are  suggesting is that Stalin’s Russia did it for the good of Europe and the west. They were aided first and foremost from the west (mainly the US) and that turned the tide of the war. 
 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

I wasn't speaking specifically of one event.  Obviously Russia was the aggressor when they invaded Ukraine. 

That said, not every conflict over the past 80 years is that simple - but we simplify the events because to us, Russia will seem like the aggressor and be at fault - regardless of the circumstances.  There are always two sides to every story/conflict etc - and although the other side may be wrong, we should always try to at least understand why?  How?  Their thought process, etc. 

Understanding why they did it could help in preventing it from happening again instead of just saying "they're bad guys, they've always done it and they'll do it again" - which won't solve anything, imo. 

The reason they did it is simple. It’s not complex. Russians love being under authoritarian rule going back to Peter the Great, and Russian rulers think they’re Peter the Great, and they want Russia to have the territories of Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics so that they have a smaller indefensible border to keep the Swedish and German hordes out because they think the world still works like it did in the 18th century. 
 

That’s it. There’s no 4D chess. There’s no complex thoughts. There’s no conspiracy. There’s no depth. They will keep coming as long as they think they can win. The only way to win is to make them think if they even try in the first place they will lose. That is accomplished by a: making them lose when they try, and b: making it obvious that if they try they will lose via a huge military deference.

 

Thats it, man. There’s no complexity to it. 

10 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

 

The character who put on the lipstick literally shot a guy later on in the film.

2 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

Name one war that Russia has been involved in where they weren’t the aggressor. Just one. 

And let’s say that you want to understand their reasoning and thought process. How does it help you in knowing that their reasoning/thought process is to just take what they want and when they want? You’re giving these authoritarian dictators a benefit of the doubt and that’s the weakness they crave…

See, this is where you and I disagree.   Do you know what authoritarian dictators respect?  Leaders/Ambassadors  that will talk to them face to face - man to man.  They regard leaders that are unwilling to talk to them as a sign of weakness.  

Look at Jesse Jackson - for example:

 In 1983, he traveled to Syria to secure the release of a captured American pilot, Navy Lt. Robert Goodman, who was being held by the Syrian government. Goodman had been shot down over Lebanon while on a mission to bomb Syrian positions in that country. After Jackson made a dramatic personal appeal to Syrian President Hafez al-Assad, Goodman was released. The Reagan administration was initially skeptical about Jackson's trip, but after Jackson secured Goodman's release, Reagan welcomed Jackson and Goodman to the White House on January 4, 1984.^[33] This helped to boost Jackson's popularity as an American patriot and served as a springboard for his 1984 presidential run. In June 1984 Jackson negotiated the release of 22 Americans being held in Cuba after an invitation by Cuban president Fidel Castro.^[34]

On the eve of the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Jackson made a trip to Iraq to plead with Saddam Hussein for the release of foreign nationals held there as a "human shield", securing the release of several British and 20 American individuals.^[35][36][37]

In 1997, Jackson traveled to Kenya to meet with Kenyan President Daniel arap Moi as United States President Bill Clinton's special envoy for democracy to promote free and fair elections. In April 1999, during the Kosovo War and NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia, he traveled to Belgrade to negotiate the release of three U.S. POWs captured on the Macedonian border while patrolling with a UN peacekeeping unit. Along with Serbian American congressman Rod Blagojevich, he met with then-Yugoslav president Slobodan Milošević, who later agreed to release the three men.^[38][39][40] Jackson's negotiation was not sanctioned by the Clinton administration.^[39]

 

 

Then the KENNEDY-KHRUSHCHEV exchanges that ended the Cuban Missile Crisis and potentially prevented WWIII.

The Reagan - Gorbachov exchanges that were the catalysts for ending the Cold War

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

You are of course right that Russia was invaded by Germany in WWII, but Russia wasn’t some peace loving nation during that time. Before the invasion, both countries signed the Hitler/Stalin Pact, which allowed them to divide up Polen between the two countries. Hitler broke the treaty and invaded Russia. In his view, he basically wanted to beat  Stalin to the punch, as war between both sides would eventually happen anyway. Stalin and Hitler were on the same level of evil. 
 

Not to mention the Soviet invasion of Finland and the three Baltic states. 

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

I don't necessarily disagree with that - I was pointing out that Russia has come to the aid of Europe/The West in the past - despite their vast differences; including their past leaders. Although not easy - it is possible to "work with" Russia - regardless of their leaders - in order to maintain peace (We did it for 50+ years through the Cold War without a single nuclear missile being launched)  - we should be able to do it now. 

That’s not at all correct 

6 minutes ago, Bill said:

The character who put on the lipstick literally shot a guy later on in the film.

Yup, tracks with today’s left.

1 minute ago, Ace Nova said:

See, this is where you and I disagree.   Do you know what authoritarian dictators respect?  Leaders/Ambassadors  that will talk to them face to face - man to man.  They regard leaders that are unwilling to talk to them as a sign of weakness.  

Look at Jesse Jackson - for example:

 In 1983, he traveled to Syria to secure the release of a captured American pilot, Navy Lt. Robert Goodman, who was being held by the Syrian government. Goodman had been shot down over Lebanon while on a mission to bomb Syrian positions in that country. After Jackson made a dramatic personal appeal to Syrian President Hafez al-Assad, Goodman was released. The Reagan administration was initially skeptical about Jackson's trip, but after Jackson secured Goodman's release, Reagan welcomed Jackson and Goodman to the White House on January 4, 1984.^[33] This helped to boost Jackson's popularity as an American patriot and served as a springboard for his 1984 presidential run. In June 1984 Jackson negotiated the release of 22 Americans being held in Cuba after an invitation by Cuban president Fidel Castro.^[34]

On the eve of the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Jackson made a trip to Iraq to plead with Saddam Hussein for the release of foreign nationals held there as a "human shield", securing the release of several British and 20 American individuals.^[35][36][37]

In 1997, Jackson traveled to Kenya to meet with Kenyan President Daniel arap Moi as United States President Bill Clinton's special envoy for democracy to promote free and fair elections. In April 1999, during the Kosovo War and NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia, he traveled to Belgrade to negotiate the release of three U.S. POWs captured on the Macedonian border while patrolling with a UN peacekeeping unit. Along with Serbian American congressman Rod Blagojevich, he met with then-Yugoslav president Slobodan Milošević, who later agreed to release the three men.^[38][39][40] Jackson's negotiation was not sanctioned by the Clinton administration.^[39]

 

 

Then the KENNEDY-KHRUSHCHEV exchanges that ended the Cuban Missile Crisis and potentially prevented WWIII.

The Reagan - Gorbachov exchanges that were the catalysts for ending the Cold War

 

 

 

 

Oh lord, you seem very gullible if you believe that nonsense.

Reagan won the Cold War because he showed strength! He showed those Commies that he wasn’t going to sh.t from them.

 

You deal with bullies, even on the playground, through your own strength. You don’t just give in. They might still beat your a s s, but they will respect you. 

18 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Check the page count, we're at 900+ and counting. We've discussed it ad nauseum and the reason doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Blah, blah, blah, buffer zone with NATO countries, blah, blah, blah, former KGB officer wants reunification of Soviet empire, blah, blah, blah trying to save face and assert dominance on a global stage. 

The fact you think you're coming in here with some novel insight is hilarious if I'm being honest. Trying to talk to us like you understand the Ukrainian people better than anyone. Like I said, you're basically a child tugging on the sleeve of an adult trying to get attention. Do yourself a favor and get your information from somewhere else than Fox News or Tucker Carlson, not just for this topic, but for every other one. 

Don't watch Tucker Carlson other than the same clips most people see.  And not a ton of Fox News either.    Mostly News Nation if I decide to watch cable news, anyway. 

4 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Not to mention the Soviet invasion of Finland and the three Baltic states. 

Absolutely. Forgot all about them. See, that’s an ally from Sweden coming to the rescue 🤣✌️

10 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

Yup, tracks with today’s left.

Yeah, since conservatives became **** who won’t shoot someone who is attacking someone else. 

30 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

The fact you think you're coming in here with some novel insight is hilarious if I'm being honest. Trying to talk to us like you understand the Ukrainian people better than anyone. Like I said, you're basically a child tugging on the sleeve of an adult trying to get attention. Do yourself a favor and get your information from somewhere else than Fox News or Tucker Carlson, not just for this topic, but for every other one. 

Irony meters might never recover.