UK_EaglesFan89 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, Gannan said: He has done nothing over the last 3 years...and I mean nothing (including last year's super bowl run) to indicate he's an NFL head coach. No one else was interested in him. He's always been an offensive assistant under offensive head coaches. He never called plays before he got here and clearly couldn't handle it when he did, so he had to give it to Stieken. His "scheme" is the same 6 plays run out of different formations. Last year he had good coordinators and only had to beat Daniel Jones and a team with no QB to get to the super bowl. I mean look I think that is going too far. This team exceeded all expectations last year and was very close to winning the Super Bowl. We can pick at Sirianni and we can look at his overall body of work and say he has done this or hasn't done that but I think saying he has done nothing is too much. It was his messaging, it was his culture and his team that did what it did last year and then continued to get results this year. If we are going to hammer him for this current mess then we need to give him credit for being a part of a very successful period in this teams history in terms of the results. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannan Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, UK_EaglesFan89 said: I mean look I think that is going too far. This team exceeded all expectations last year and was very close to winning the Super Bowl. We can pick at Sirianni and we can look at his overall body of work and say he has done this or hasn't done that but I think saying he has done nothing is too much. It was his messaging, it was his culture and his team that did what it did last year and then continued to get results this year. If we are going to hammer him for this current mess then we need to give him credit for being a part of a very successful period in this teams history in terms of the results. He had a stacked roster and an easy schedule. That "culture" he's fostered looks like one of quitters. I see a soft team that doesn't tackle, doesn't run out plays, and just wants the season to be done. If you want to say his flower speech is a major accomplishment... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Gannan said: He had a stacked roster and an easy schedule. That "culture" he's fostered looks like one of quitters. I see a soft team that doesn't tackle, doesn't run out plays, and just wants the season to be done. If you want to say his flower speech is a major accomplishment... Dude we can't lambast him now and not recognise the tear this team went on. Yes I think his messaging has now fallen flat and yes I do think he needs to go but he needs to go with the recognition of what he did in his 3 years here. It has turned bad but he was a part of turning around a damn bad team that was left and taking them to the SB in 2 years. And then despite the SB hangover they responded well early in the year and jumped out to 10-1. It was a flawed 10-1 and it has been exposed but he has still done more than a lot of coaches. Lets not forget he lost just 1 more game than the NFL favourite Shanahan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerolithe_Lion Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Matt Canada was the worst coordinator any team had this season. Even Worse than Brian Johnson, believe it or not. Are the Rooney’s bad owners? Does New England have an ownership problem with what’s going on there? Have you seen Seattle’s decline the last few years? They’re winning less than us! Do they have an ownership problem? Greatness is defined by relativity. Michael Jordan is the greatest because no one could do what he did. If there were 10 guys who did it as well or better than Jordan, no one would remember who he was. But there wasn’t… so we do. Relativity. Every longterm owner in the salary cap era has had problems whether they be GM’s or HC’s or coordinators or roster mismanagement or player development droughts. Multiple bad seasons consecutively or even mistake QB contracts. How it averages out over time is what defines the hierarchy of ownerships. Out of 32 current NFL owners, Lurie is unquestionably top 10 and very probably top 5. You can’t take a struggling defense, give them a different DC who requires a completely different install and expect us to be great. Patricia may or may not suck, but the results wouldn’t have been much different regardless of who we put back there. Had he intervened and flipped all the coordinators midseason we’d still be in the same situation, but people would be blaming him for meddling and say that’s why he’s a bad owner. But now he’s not meddling and that’s why he’s a bad owner. When "good enough” is the Mendoza line, Lurie is more than good enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, MF POON said: Because we saw it with Pederson when they dictated who would be on his staff, and it's already been confirmed that they berated him over running so much, when they desired to see the team pass more. He wouldn't comply and got fired. Word has gotten around that it was Lurie/Howie that made the decision to demote Desai, and we'll see this offseason if they choose Nick's OC/DC replacements as well. I don't think that's Nick's playbook we're seeing at all. I think he's taking the blame as a good yes man would, and Johnson would simply be a scapegoat. I mean, he's not even calling an offense he designed. What do fans want from the GM and owner regarding accountability though? If all the fans want the OC fired because he stinks (Groh, BJ) and the head coach wants to be loyal to him but the GM/owner say you need to fire the coordinator and get someone else...isn't that what fans want? Accountability? Fans always talk about having a GM who is a football guy who dictates the scheme and philosophy and then hires coaches to fulfill that philosophy and holds them accountable. Yet, if Howie or Lurie do just that: hold the coach accountable to make necessary changes they argue it's meddling. I do agree a head coach needs to hire his staff and do his thing, do the job he's hired to do. But when things are going badly an owner and leader will demand change and results. We can debate where the line is drawn, but I don't think any organization just sits back and watches a dumpster fire taking place and not have input and put pressure on the coach to make necessary changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoconoDon Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Lurie is a good franchise owner. The unknown issue that some have hinted at, is that the coaches are subservient to his son Julian Lurie, who runs the analytics department of the team. The fear is that the analytics department isn't just a resource for coaches to consider, but is actually driving game plans and pass/run ratios and the like. If that's true, nothing will change as Jeffrey isn't going to reduce the role of his 27 year old son and future owner. It would explain why they went from Doug, a half-way yes man to Sirianni, a 100% cheerleader and yes man. As a fan, I hope those fears are misplaced. While analytics can potentially enhance a strategy by revealing interesting points and trends for consideration, the human will cannot be measured. It can be tested, but not measured. That's why we call it an intangible. Football is driven by too many intangibles for analytics to take full control, and no one should let it, including the Eagles. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwinavega Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 10 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said: When "good enough” is the Mendoza line, Lurie is more than good enough. Thought your post really solid, but I don´t understand this reference. Could someone help me out please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwinavega Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Ah, ignore me. I didn´t know it was an actual thing (thanks, Wikipedia!). I understand now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, PoconoDon said: Lurie is a good franchise owner. The unknown issue that some have hinted at, is that the coaches are subservient to his son Julian Lurie, who runs the analytics department of the team. The fear is that the analytics department isn't just a resource for coaches to consider, but is actually driving game plans and pass/run ratios and the like. If that's true, nothing will change as Jeffrey isn't going to reduce the role of his 27 year old son and future owner. It would explain why they went from Doug, a half-way yes man to Sirianni, a 100% cheerleader and yes man. As a fan, I hope those fears are misplaced. While analytics can potentially enhance a strategy by revealing interesting points and trends for consideration, the human will cannot be measured. It can be tested, but not measured. That's why we call it an intangible. Football is driven by too many intangibles for analytics to take full control, and no one should let it, including the Eagles. I have to question this idea about analytics though. We've seen many stats that show the Eagles are failing in areas and they are doing nothing to improve it. If they are so dedicated to analytics, why wouldn't they implement things differently? Why wouldn't they be changing the route trees for receivers, throwing more RB screens and short passes to the middle of the field, pressing the corners, blitzing more, handling the other team's blitz, etc.? Analytics are a part of the game and every coach will consider them, for example going for it on 4th down situations. But I think the problem is coaching: play design, game plan, scheme and how the players are developed and utilized. There are too many mental mistakes, penalties, lack of discipline and fundamentals like basic tackling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 7 minutes ago, NOTW said: I have to question this idea about analytics though. We've seen many stats that show the Eagles are failing in areas and they are doing nothing to improve it. If they are so dedicated to analytics, why wouldn't they implement things differently? Why would they be changing the route trees for receivers, throwing more RB screens and short passes to the middle of the field, pressing the corners, blitzing more, handling the other team's blitz, etc.? Spot on here bud! If they could change it they would. If they could implement more screens or more routes or motion then they would. They haven't because they can't because the current offensive scheme clearly does not incorporate those things and trying to during the season will not work. They are hamstrung by their own scheme and the only way around it is for them to hope they can win next week based on talent on offense alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeM37 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, Gannan said: As bad as this season has turned out, and as much as I HATE, I mean really HATE Sirianni as the coach. The ownership is definitely top ten in the NFL. Look at how some other teams are run... Carolina hires Frank Reich and the owner forces him to take Young when Riech wanted Stroud. Then he promptly fires Riech after a handful of games because Young sucks. The Falcons draft high impact offensive rookies like London, Pitts, and Robinson, that don't seem to fit the HC's scheme because he refuses to use them. The Raiders gave Gruden an insane deal, had to fire him then hired McDaniels who clearly had no idea what he was doing. The Commanders lol There are really bad owners in this league. Lurie isn't one of them. He doesn't always approach things the way I'd want him to, but this is one of the better run organizations in the NFL. If that is TRULY the case with this team....please explain to me if it is Lurie or Howie or a combination of both who are running this team based on analytics..... I am not being sarcastic either....I really would like to know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeM37 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 25 minutes ago, PoconoDon said: Lurie is a good franchise owner. The unknown issue that some have hinted at, is that the coaches are subservient to his son Julian Lurie, who runs the analytics department of the team. The fear is that the analytics department isn't just a resource for coaches to consider, but is actually driving game plans and pass/run ratios and the like. If that's true, nothing will change as Jeffrey isn't going to reduce the role of his 27 year old son and future owner. It would explain why they went from Doug, a half-way yes man to Sirianni, a 100% cheerleader and yes man. As a fan, I hope those fears are misplaced. While analytics can potentially enhance a strategy by revealing interesting points and trends for consideration, the human will cannot be measured. It can be tested, but not measured. That's why we call it an intangible. Football is driven by too many intangibles for analytics to take full control, and no one should let it, including the Eagles. THANK YOU for saying this!! It is those frickin analytics that have driven this team into the ground.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoconoDon Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 6 minutes ago, NOTW said: I have to question this idea about analytics though. We've seen many stats that show the Eagles are failing in areas and they are doing nothing to improve it. If they are so dedicated to analytics, why wouldn't they implement things differently? Why would they be changing the route trees for receivers, throwing more RB screens and short passes to the middle of the field, pressing the corners, blitzing more, handling the other team's blitz, etc.? Analytics are a part of the game and every coach will consider them, for example going for it on 4th down situations. But I think the problem is coaching: play design, game plan, scheme and how the players are developed and utilized. There are too many mental mistakes, penalties, lack of discipline and fundamentals like basic tackling. My reason for bringing it up is that there have been rumblings it may be true. Why does Jalen throw almost everything to the outside whether short or deep? Is he incapable of throwing between the hash marks? I doubt that as he's done it before on a few occasions. Is that analytics showing through game plan, play design and play calling? I don't know, but it seems like there's something at work that doesn't make sense in a lot of areas. At the end of the day, I believe that the human element (for coaches and players) is the greatest factor in wins and losses. It can be estimated but not truly quantified. In any event, I hope the fears about too much power in the analytics department are misplaced. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TSM]_PimpDaddyPain Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I wouldn't go as far to say that he's a bad owner. He's made the Eagles a more valuable/respectable team than any time before in franchise history. But he definitely seems too loyal to Howie to the point of being detrimental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleVA Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 12 hours ago, Godfather said: Howie sucks at evaluating qb contracts Howie sucks at being a GM, good players can overcome the meddling of upper management, but because Howie can't draft worth a damn he must rely on FA to make up for his draft mistakes, this leads keeping vets around that should have been shown the door years earlier because there are no younger talent on the roster to beat out players in their mid-30s. Get rid of Howie the GM and everything will self-correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannan Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 51 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: Dude we can't lambast him now and not recognise the tear this team went on. Yes I think his messaging has now fallen flat and yes I do think he needs to go but he needs to go with the recognition of what he did in his 3 years here. It has turned bad but he was a part of turning around a damn bad team that was left and taking them to the SB in 2 years. And then despite the SB hangover they responded well early in the year and jumped out to 10-1. It was a flawed 10-1 and it has been exposed but he has still done more than a lot of coaches. Lets not forget he lost just 1 more game than the NFL favourite Shanahan. Coaches fizzle. It happens, especially when they're "gimmicky" or there's just not a lot of substance. For me this is Chip Kelly all over again except he isn't such a crap to his players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannan Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 16 minutes ago, PoconoDon said: My reason for bringing it up is that there have been rumblings it may be true. Why does Jalen throw almost everything to the outside whether short or deep? Is he incapable of throwing between the hash marks? I doubt that as he's done it before on a few occasions. Is that analytics showing through game plan, play design and play calling? I don't know, but it seems like there's something at work that doesn't make sense in a lot of areas. At the end of the day, I believe that the human element (for coaches and players) is the greatest factor in wins and losses. It can be estimated but not truly quantified. In any event, I hope the fears about too much power in the analytics department are misplaced. Throwing to the outside constantly is very "charlie college". I think both the coaches and Hurts have fallen back to it and can't seem to break the habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, Gannan said: Coaches fizzle. It happens, especially when they're "gimmicky" or there's just not a lot of substance. For me this is Chip Kelly all over again except he isn't such a crap to his players. OK so I agree with that. Coaches fizzle. I think Sirianni stumbled upon something here and built a really good culture and for a year / 2 years it worked. Now the messaging isn't getting home and I think we are seeing a team quit on each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawkins4prez Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 13 hours ago, wrestlevessel said: He is the reason Howie Roseman stays no matter what, and we are forced to have horrible coordinators instead of good veterans. Cowboys get Dan Quinn for years while we get inexperienced duds. It is so cheap. Are we on the verge of a Howie conspiracy theory? One where he builds a SB contender every half decade only to purposely undercut his HC immediately afterwards so they don't ever grow in power? As for Lurie, just stop it. This was a bottom tier franchise for half a century and a its been a top 5 franchise for 20+ yrs with him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannan Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 14 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: OK so I agree with that. Coaches fizzle. I think Sirianni stumbled upon something here and built a really good culture and for a year / 2 years it worked. Now the messaging isn't getting home and I think we are seeing a team quit on each other. I mean they're gonna do what they're gonna do. If they really love him as a culture guy and leader of men, they can hire experienced coordinators. They HAVE to install a new offense though. If they try to run the same 6 plays next year, they are going to be the worst team in football. I would prefer to just cut our losses, admit our mistakes, and hire an actual innovator. This team could benefit from a Mike McDaniel type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Gannan said: I mean they're gonna do what they're gonna do. If they really love him as a culture guy and leader of men, they can hire experienced coordinators. They HAVE to install a new offense though. If they try to run the same 6 plays next year, they are going to be the worst team in football. I would prefer to just cut our losses, admit our mistakes, and hire an actual innovator. This team could benefit from a Mike McDaniel type. And I am right there with you bud. Fire Sirianni and change this whole thing because I don't think he can turn it around. I don't think they will do that but that is what I would do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Norseman Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Speaking of Lurie...I bet he's furious that this team threw away their potential for any home playoff games over the last two months. The amount of money lost to the organization here is immense. The impact of this implosion goes far beyond just upsetting fans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 47 minutes ago, PoconoDon said: My reason for bringing it up is that there have been rumblings it may be true. Why does Jalen throw almost everything to the outside whether short or deep? Is he incapable of throwing between the hash marks? I doubt that as he's done it before on a few occasions. Is that analytics showing through game plan, play design and play calling? I don't know, but it seems like there's something at work that doesn't make sense in a lot of areas. At the end of the day, I believe that the human element (for coaches and players) is the greatest factor in wins and losses. It can be estimated but not truly quantified. In any event, I hope the fears about too much power in the analytics department are misplaced. IMO, Siri and BJ were overconfident in their talent and expected that if Hurts can scramble with the threat of running, it will open opportunities for the receivers and he just needs to throw to them and they will find a way to make the grab. They also admittedly love the big play downfield. It seems they don't rely much on scheme and play design which are very basic, they rely on star players just making plays. And sometimes it works! So they keep trying it, AJ Brown will just muscle his way to make a catch and then run for yards after catch. Get the ball in Smitty's hands and he'll make it happen. Get a screen to Goedert and he'll just push his way to a 1st down. Throw those stupid bubble screens and expect the blockers to make it happen. If we can see with our eyes as fans on the couch what's working and what's not, how in the world are the "analytics" driving the decisions? I would think analytics would show failures and then the areas that need to improve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleVA Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: Woah hang on... I wasn't saying it is a good thing or that he is employee of the month and so that gives him a pass. I was more saying I think he seems like a good guy who would walk away if he wasn't able to get on and be HC. I think the issues we are seeing are because of him and that he isn't a good offensive coach and not because Lurie and Howie are limiting him. Story has it Lurie wants a mad bomber offense, deep balls all over the field, apparently Sirianni is giving him what he wants, everybody is running deep with no safety valves in sight. So no, Sirianni isn't walking away from Lurie's mad bomber mandate if the reports about what Lurie wants are true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
time2rock Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 11 minutes ago, NOTW said: IMO, Siri and BJ were overconfident in their talent and expected that if Hurts can scramble with the threat of running, it will open opportunities for the receivers and he just needs to throw to them and they will find a way to make the grab. They also admittedly love the big play downfield. It seems they don't rely much on scheme and play design which are very basic, they rely on star players just making plays. And sometimes it works! So they keep trying it, AJ Brown will just muscle his way to make a catch and then run for yards after catch. Get the ball in Smitty's hands and he'll make it happen. Get a screen to Goedert and he'll just push his way to a 1st down. Throw those stupid bubble screens and expect the blockers to make it happen. If we can see with our eyes as fans on the couch what's working and what's not, how in the world are the "analytics" driving the decisions? I would think analytics would show failures and then the areas that need to improve. I've been saying the same for months now (even when they were scraping by with Ws that likely could have gone the other way ... there was still plenty to be concerned about during many of those Ws where many of us were saying that will eventually come back to bite us in the butt), that the scheme on offense is nothing more than backyard ball riding on the athleticism of Hurts to make a play. When it finally did starting biting us Sirianni and BJ were unable to get creative to come up with new wrinkles to get things back on track. I don't really think that is a strength of either of them (certainly not the HC ... hard to really say with the OC as he is likely just doing what the boss tells him to do). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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