5 minutes ago, judunno said:

If Brady can do it... Hurts can do it. This is football after all.

Was Brady a major part of the running game as well?    Was Brady getting bodies thrown at him the same way that Hurts has?   Did Brady run the QB sneak with the same frequency that the Eagles did with Hurts... especially where EVERYONE in the country, even people who don't watch football, would know what was coming?   Or, was it more of an occasional thing?  

Eagles did it 32 times last year... 40 times this year.   That's 72 times in 2 seasons.  Brady ran 157 QB sneaks from 2001 to 2020.   19 seasons compared to what will basically amount to 4.   You don't see a difference?   That's nearly 5 times more frequent.  And how many times did Brady get helmet to helmet contact during the sneak because every knew it was coming?   And how many times for Hurts?  How many times did a player launch himself over the top of the pile like Vander Esch last year, or the offsides like we saw in the Giants game where the first thing contacted was the helmet by both players?

It IS football, but the game is all about QBs now more than ever before... the cost of having a top flight QB is higher than it has ever been before.  So, why do you want to take your most expensive, single most important player on the entire team... and expose him to punishment that could be avoided?  And it isn't just the sneaks... Hurts ran 165 times last year.   He ran 157 times this year.   That's too many times.   The punishment adds up.   Look back at the history... Steve Young was a 'runner'... who never exceeded 76 carries in a season.  Bobby Douglass held the record for most rushing yards by a QB in a season for over a generation.. and he had 141 carries that year, but never 94 in any other year (and its not like we want Bobby Douglass as our QB... he wasn't good enough back then, and wouldn't be today.). Fran Tarkenton was the all-time leader in Qb rushing yards for well over a generation, and he maxed out at 62 carries in a year.    Hurts and Lamar Jackson are in the Cam Newton level of carries... And Cam's career was essentially over at the age of 29.  That's NFL RB level of longevity.   Is that really the goal here?   Get a QB... get him beat up for 7 years and then move on?   Seems rather short sighted.   We need better options.   Tom Brady ran sneaks... and never exceeded 49 carries in a single season... and those carries INCLUDES kneel downs at the end of games.   Not really comparable between Hurts and Brady, is it?

19 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Another question that has bothered me all season is the fact that everyone on the planet knows when we are about to do the brotherly shove so no need to even try to disguise the play.  Why haven’t they tried it with a RB lined up so that Hurts doesn’t risk injury?  

Because none of the RBs are big enough.  

14 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

If it’s a play or two a game, no big deal - I’d actually promote something along the lines if I were a coach.  Now if it’s the majority of plays - that would be a huge issue, imo. 

Only if its done in smart ways in smart moments.  The TD to Brown was a boneheaded decision and nearly cost them the game.

6 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

The passing precision isn't there, so the battering ram, RPO, frequent QB draws are necessary to keep defenses off balance (doesn't always work, but still need to do it) to render the passing game more effective.

It started out as a unique offense.  Once the gimmicks fizzled out and teams realized our pass attack was inconsistent, teams realized they can just blitz, crash around the LOS to win the war at the trenches, and our offense would generally do bad things like misfire or turn it over.

Of course... which is why the offense needs a complete overhaul with better coaching.   The players are here... I think... but the coaches aren't.  And if Hurts can't run an offense that doesn't rely on his legs, then this team is in big trouble.  

Remember that Nick called that bomb on 3rd and short to get a DPI penalty

I have no proof of this but I believe that the OC and DC were Sirianni's hires and that Patricia was forced on him. It turned out that the front office was right about Desai not being up to the job but very wrong that Patricia - the veteran - would be an improvement. I don't know why Fangio was not hired as the DC but my theory is that Sirianni didn't want him and viewed him as a threat. A person I know worked for a firm and her boss had a pattern of hiring incompetent men so that they weren't a threat to him. Everyone kept saying he was so smart; well, he was by comparison to the clowns he hired. He eventually got shitcanned but he did a lot of damage before being shown the door.

I thought the Tampa game was over after the first play from scrimmage - a 20-yard pass right over the middle. This was the same problem we had seen over and over, and over, for two months and the coaches were helpless to fix it. The coaches were helpless and the players knew it. On offense, Tampa blitzed a lot, which was no surprise to anyone, and we couldn't block it. Reid used to say his job was to put his players in position to make plays. Our coaches couldn't do their jobs. Period.

2 hours ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Bring the turnovers down and get him a Goddamn offense that works and we’ll be fine

I’m not a Hurts hater, but there isn’t a statistic for throws not attempted to open receivers or misreads.

That is one of the biggest deficiencies I have seen raised here in the EMB with regards to Hurts.

30 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

You could probably get Kenneth Murray for $4M.  He'd be a Kyzir White sort of signing.  

I think to truly fix the LB you've gotta draft a guy; and I mean before pick 100.  Not a Davion Taylor project, either.  A plug-and-play LB

I think Kenneth Murray is a step above Kyzir White. He's still got tremendous potential. Now, you need good coaches to help him reach that and that's what the Eagles lack.

My recurring nightmare is Nick somehow selling Lurie and Roseman on bringing back Johnson by using Michael Clay as an example. Everyone wanted Clay fired after last year, Nick stuck by him, and the special teams delivered this year. 

43 minutes ago, judunno said:

Probably because the QB center exchange is more reliable with the QB. 

 

Yeah but that doesn’t hold water. 
 

Remember when Andy ran the wildcat dozens of times that one season here?  Eventually defenses caught up with and they stopped running it.
 

Andy still runs the wildcat maybe once every game or two.  He never completely abandoned it and kept it as part of his arsenal.  
 

We should have a half of dozen different variations of the brotherly shove - including running it with a RB and practicing it with a RB. 

2 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

My recurring nightmare is Nick somehow selling Lurie and Roseman on bringing back Johnson by using Michael Clay as an example. Everyone wanted Clay fired after last year, Nick stuck by him, and the special teams delivered this year. 

Yea but in all honesty Brian Johnson's responsibilities and Michael Clay's responsibilities are apples and oranges. No disrespect to Clay but

A) Jake Elliott is Jake Elliott

B) 80% of kickoffs are touchbacks

C) Covey has some nice returns but ZERO TD's all season long on punts.....the fake punt for the 1st down was cool....but let's not act like we had 3-4 special teams TD's

If Sirianni even tries to use this analogy, then you fire him. Sirianni needs to hit a grand slam in this meeting to keep his job - and I just don't think he has it. 

19 minutes ago, just relax said:

I have no proof of this but I believe that the OC and DC were Sirianni's hires and that Patricia was forced on him. It turned out that the front office was right about Desai not being up to the job but very wrong that Patricia - the veteran - would be an improvement. I don't know why Fangio was not hired as the DC but my theory is that Sirianni didn't want him and viewed him as a threat. A person I know worked for a firm and her boss had a pattern of hiring incompetent men so that they weren't a threat to him. Everyone kept saying he was so smart; well, he was by comparison to the clowns he hired. He eventually got shitcanned but he did a lot of damage before being shown the door.

I thought the Tampa game was over after the first play from scrimmage - a 20-yard pass right over the middle. This was the same problem we had seen over and over, and over, for two months and the coaches were helpless to fix it. The coaches were helpless and the players knew it. On offense, Tampa blitzed a lot, which was no surprise to anyone, and we couldn't block it. Reid used to say his job was to put his players in position to make plays. Our coaches couldn't do their jobs. Period.

Brian Johnson was the logical hire for OC.  He was the incumbent QB coach and Hurts' development to an MVP candidate is what has brought head coaching interviews for him.  I'm not that sure Fangio was ever coming to the Eagles as a full time DC.  The Dolphins offered him huge money and the ability to stay in Florida and live the semi-retired lifestyle he likely wants.  MIA might have won his services regardless of an offer from Howie.

Sean Desai was not nearly as inspiring as a DC hire, but he wasn't without qualifications.  He had DC experience in Chicago and had a title in SEA.  What happened with Gannon unexpectedly put the Eagles in a tougher position, and I think any ill will the Eagles had toward Gannon was him saying he wasn't interested in leaving, then taking a call from his friend in ARI and being gone -- just like that.

Patricia was a Howie hire and I think there was at least strong suggestion to Sirianni from Howie that Patricia take over the defense.  I think that's what will save Nick in this, at least for the time being.  If Howie has integrity he goes to Lurie and says "Sorry, we screwed up" and takes partial accountability.  Tough to fire the head coach in this scenario a year departed from a Super Bowl berth.  Howie making calls on coordinators says to me Lurie likely told him "You guys screwed this up; you damn well fix it!"

The question if Sirianni stays is, what are the expectations on him for 2024?  Kelce and Cox likely gone, a complete overhaul on defense needed, but you still have a mostly intact offense that should still be a top 10 unit.  I think the expectation will be on Nick to win the division and at least hold the 11-win level, or he's likely out.  

 

Bo and Berman both think if Sirianni stays, Johnson stays.

Which would be insane. If for nothing else, how badly their 250m QB regressed under this duo. To keep status quo would be negligent.

This comparison of Hurts to Mahomes is laughable. There is not an GM in the NFL that would take Hurts over Mahomes.  

6 minutes ago, Maga301 said:

Yea but in all honesty Brian Johnson's responsibilities and Michael Clay's responsibilities are apples and oranges. No disrespect to Clay but

A) Jake Elliott is Jake Elliott

B) 80% of kickoffs are touchbacks

C) Covey has some nice returns but ZERO TD's all season long on punts.....the fake punt for the 1st down was cool....but let's not act like we had 3-4 special teams TD's

If Sirianni even tries to use this analogy, then you fire him. Sirianni needs to hit a grand slam in this meeting to keep his job - and I just don't think he has it. 

Add in laughing in Nicks face if he tried that approach lol

Well, Johnson did lead a Florida offense that scored 40 points per game. Maybe the league really is putting all of this on Nick?

 

1 minute ago, Mike030270 said:

Add in laughing in Nicks face if he tried that approach lol

If we thought the anticipation was killing us Monday/Tuesday.......I'd love to be a fly on that wall right about now. Somehow I picture Sirianni saying 1-2 retarded things that Lurie can't come back from. 

1 minute ago, vikas83 said:

Well, Johnson did lead a Florida offense that scored 40 points per game. Maybe the league really is putting all of this on Nick?

 

Keep in mind, Gannon got a head coaching gig because his defense ranked in the top 10 ... whether it actually was, or not.  Johnson is seen as developing Hurts, and the Eagles were actually 7th in scoring offense this season.  

37 minutes ago, just relax said:

I have no proof of this but I believe that the OC and DC were Sirianni's hires and that Patricia was forced on him. It turned out that the front office was right about Desai not being up to the job but very wrong that Patricia - the veteran - would be an improvement. I don't know why Fangio was not hired as the DC but my theory is that Sirianni didn't want him and viewed him as a threat. A person I know worked for a firm and her boss had a pattern of hiring incompetent men so that they weren't a threat to him. Everyone kept saying he was so smart; well, he was by comparison to the clowns he hired. He eventually got shitcanned but he did a lot of damage before being shown the door.

I thought the Tampa game was over after the first play from scrimmage - a 20-yard pass right over the middle. This was the same problem we had seen over and over, and over, for two months and the coaches were helpless to fix it. The coaches were helpless and the players knew it. On offense, Tampa blitzed a lot, which was no surprise to anyone, and we couldn't block it. Reid used to say his job was to put his players in position to make plays. Our coaches couldn't do their jobs. Period.

I agree.  I have reservations, concerns, and complaints about the players too.  But that's discussion fodder.  

I don't think the players are actually good enough.  BUT...I/we KNOW the coaches aren't good enough.  So the discussion may be controversial, but the *what to do* should be unanimous: give Hurts, the offensive personnel, the DL (while remaking the back 7) next year with new coaches to put them in better positions.

If we get similar to modestly improved results, then the aforementioned debate gains momentum.  If we revert to 2022, we all win.

3 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Bo and Berman both think if Sirianni stays, Johnson stays.

Which would be insane. If for nothing else, how badly their 250m QB regressed under this duo. To keep status quo would be negligent.

Its not all that insane when you have just a few options.

Fire BJ and hire an experienced OC. They are basically in a position to save the HCs job or be let go with the rest of the staff next offseason. Is there a proven OC who is going to want to do that?

Fire BJ and bring in another new young coach to be OC and go through some growing pains again with a top tier offensive roster. Could end up working really well, or end up right back where they are now.

Keep BJ, bring in some experienced senior offensive assistants, sit down and fix this crap and see if he can grow. If not, clean house and bring in a more experienced coaching staff in 2025.

10 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Bo and Berman both think if Sirianni stays, Johnson stays.

Which would be insane. If for nothing else, how badly their 250m QB regressed under this duo. To keep status quo would be negligent.

 

Going to be Frabk Reich as QB coach, senior assistant HC and passing game coordinator or some other title as well.

47 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Remember that Nick called that bomb on 3rd and short to get a DPI penalty

I think Sirianni sometimes says things to lay down cover for his players.

5 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Well, Johnson did lead a Florida offense that scored 40 points per game. Maybe the league really is putting all of this on Nick?

 

If that was true then why didn't he go to his HC and challenge the stupid game plan? Offer some insight and say something like "maybe we shouldn't do that"

Shane obviously offered better insight and support than Brian

10 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Brian Johnson was the logical hire for OC.  He was the incumbent QB coach and Hurts' development to an MVP candidate is what has brought head coaching interviews for him.  I'm not that sure Fangio was ever coming to the Eagles as a full time DC.  The Dolphins offered him huge money and the ability to stay in Florida and live the semi-retired lifestyle he likely wants.  MIA might have won his services regardless of an offer from Howie.

Sean Desai was not nearly as inspiring as a DC hire, but he wasn't without qualifications.  He had DC experience in Chicago and had a title in SEA.  What happened with Gannon unexpectedly put the Eagles in a tougher position, and I think any ill will the Eagles had toward Gannon was him saying he wasn't interested in leaving, then taking a call from his friend in ARI and being gone -- just like that.

Patricia was a Howie hire and I think there was at least strong suggestion to Sirianni from Howie that Patricia take over the defense.  I think that's what will save Nick in this, at least for the time being.  If Howie has integrity he goes to Lurie and says "Sorry, we screwed up" and takes partial accountability.  Tough to fire the head coach in this scenario a year departed from a Super Bowl berth.  Howie making calls on coordinators says to me Lurie likely told him "You guys screwed this up; you damn well fix it!"

The question if Sirianni stays is, what are the expectations on him for 2024?  Kelce and Cox likely gone, a complete overhaul on defense needed, but you still have a mostly intact offense that should still be a top 10 unit.  I think the expectation will be on Nick to win the division and at least hold the 11-win level, or he's likely out.  

 

Interesting thoughts. I particularly like the comment above that I bolded.

This article suggests that Fangio expected to be the DC in Philly: 

Vic Fangio Hints He Would've Stayed With Philadelphia Eagles If Not For Jonathan Gannon Tampering - Sports Illustrated Philadelphia Eagles News, Analysis and More

1 minute ago, vikas83 said:

Well, Johnson did lead a Florida offense that scored 40 points per game. Maybe the league really is putting all of this on Nick?

 

Again, kind of apples and oranges. Joe Brady was immediately offered coordinator positions because everyone saw what he did with Borrow....his first gig in Carolina didn't workout well at all, he was fired, not retained. Now he is in Buffalo and is doing a pretty good job for still being NFL unexperienced IMO. 

I can believe that Sirianni overstepped Johnson on the play calling, but I cannot believe that Johnson is a diamond in the rough, yet. 

History shows it and the proof in the pudding shows it. Coaches don't leave college for the NFL without hitting some shellshock and hurdles before becoming successful. They are both different (college and NFL), and still changing with the evolution of running QB's in most college programs. I may sound old school on this but established NFL coordinators come from experience within the NFL, they have to gain that experience. Johnson just doesn't have that yet.