13 minutes ago, jwill2420 said:

Yeah the answer is to run it back with the guy who oversaw the biggest offensive collapse in NFL history. 

10 years of epic collapse vs 1…

2 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I don’t disagree with you on any of that. But when you have a chance to win a Super Bowl and there’s guys on that roster like Jason Kelce, who might be playing in his last game and everybody comes out the last two weeks and gives up that’s a problem. It tells me they’re front runners. When things are going well they’re all together and they’re going to go out there and compete. But when things started to go the opposite way, little by little, everything started to erode. And then they lost to the Cardinals and they didn’t even want to be playing.

You can’t tell me they did not give up the last two weeks. They gave up. I don’t care what other issues are on this team. The one thing you can control is how hard you play  and giving it your all. I watched the last two games and went back and rewatch it on the all 22. They are guys out there going through the motion or half assing. it tells me if things are not going well for a period of time next year, are they going to fall off a cliff again like they did or are they going to ban together and get the job done? No one can answer it until they are faced with the adversity again next year. But it’s very concerning with a majority of the core players back next year it could very well happen again. 

Everyone has their own point of view, but when I read what you just wrote it points me to a leadership issue among the players, more than a coaching issue.  Now, we both know it’s both — and the GM/owner can get rid of coordinators easier then getting rid of players with fat contracts.

When I say players, I believe in Kelce, Graham, Cox, Lane as long term guys whose motivation is beyond question.  My concern is the younger guys who are supposed to be taking over the locker room soon — AJ Brown, Hurts, Smith, Carter, Davis, Mailata, etc.  Are these guys up to the challenge of keeping a locker room together?  I’m still pissed at AJ Brown because from where I’m standing it looked to me like he quit.

10 minutes ago, Wentz_Era said:

10 years of epic collapse vs 1…

What are you considering collapse? I mean how great have BJ teams been since he’s been a coach

Edit: Brian Johnson has won nothing in Utah, Mississippi, Houston or Florida. 

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Sure, but going from Rosen to Murray is a lot of that context…

I wouldn’t want Kingsbury as a head coach and he doesn’t exactly excite me as an OC candidate, but I think he’s qualified for the role.  I’d still prefer an experienced OC like Carmichael 

The thing with the Eagles...they were one of the 3 worst teams in the entire NFL down the back stretch of the 2023 season.  Bottom 3, end of story.  We got the full collapse, but at the face value of an 11 win season with a playoff berth.  It's weird but 100% true.  The only difference between these guys and 2012, 2015, and 2020 was timing.  

I say that not to wax poetic about just how bad they are, but to draw attention to the giant burning sack of crap that is distorting evaluation of each roster component.  Some of these guys were a lot better than we saw in 2023...and were dragged underwater from this.  Others were along for the ride in 2022 and did the dragging in 2023.  Not so easy to set them apart.  Look at history:

1998: Brian Dawkins, Tra Thomas, Jermaine Mayberry, Bobby Taylor, Trotter, Whiting, Hugh, Hollis Thomas, .  We barely knew any of those guys were that good.  Mamula, Jason Dunn, Jon Harris, Bobby Hoying...some of them weren't even at the end of their rope yet.  New QB needed and we knew it.

2012: They knew they had something in Kelce and Cox.  Not many diamonds in the rough here.  More vets where they needed to cut bait.  New QB needed and we didn't all know it.

2015: Jordan Matthews, despite the numbers from getting the ball funneled his way, was part of the problem.  He sucked.  The poorly called, oddly paced Chip Kelly offense was disguising an OL that had THREE HOF'ers.  3 HOF players in their prime on the same OL in a bad offense.  How bad must Sam Bradford, Matthews, and Demarco Murray have been to all have bad seasons playing with a left/center/right HOF OL?  Chip sucked, but that's NOT all coaching.  New QB needed and we knew it.

2020:  Reagor and Fulgham were horrific and no one was able figure that out.  (Actually, Siri and co did realize that Fulgham was terrible right away).  An entire all-world OL was in place for the future.  The defense didn't have much.  TJ Edwards a future fine starting LB.  A couple more years out of Slay and Cox.  Hargrave would soon emerge as an elite DT.  New QB needed and we knew it..Hurts was on the roster.

 

How does 2023 compare? 

1.  Well, each major inflection point in recent franchise history corresponds with needing a new QB.  If you are an optimist, that means we are better off.  If you are a skeptic, you are wondering why every single inflection point in recent history corresponds with needing a new QB and why this one does not...does that mean a new QB is needed and we don't all know it yet?  Ideally, we are just better off.

2. Every other inflection point featured rock solid OL pieces to build with.  Do we have that this time around?  Mailata is very good, but he is NOT a probowl/all-pro type at LT and is not spectacular in pass pro.  Dickerson is outstanding.  Everything to the right of that is in flux...and I'm sorry to put Lane Johnson in that category, but his time is limited and I do not think he's going to factor much in a hindsight conversation years from now about what building blocks the OL had in 2024.  

3.  WR is in a vastly superior spot to every year but 2012, although still better than even 2012.

4.  1998 had an incredible defensive foundation in place (and we didn't really know it)...that core isn't here.  But 2012, 2015, and 2020 really didn't have much on defense.  I can't say we are much better, but I don't think we are any worse than those defenses in terms of foundation, which were all turned around pretty quickly.

 

And, of course...the other massive difference...no coaching change.

 

6 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

I wouldn’t want Kingsbury as a head coach and he doesn’t exactly excite me as an OC candidate, but I think he’s qualified for the role.  I’d still prefer an experienced OC like Carmichael 

At least he would add crossing routes, drag routes and ideas vs the blitz. 

15 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Everyone has their own point of view, but when I read what you just wrote it points me to a leadership issue among the players, more than a coaching issue.  Now, we both know it’s both — and the GM/owner can get rid of coordinators easier then getting rid of players with fat contracts.

When I say players, I believe in Kelce, Graham, Cox, Lane as long term guys whose motivation is beyond question.  My concern is the younger guys who are supposed to be taking over the locker room soon — AJ Brown, Hurts, Smith, Carter, Davis, Mailata, etc.  Are these guys up to the challenge of keeping a locker room together?  I’m still pissed at AJ Brown because from where I’m standing it looked to me like he quit.

I think it’s on players and coach. I don’t think you could have players not trust the coaches and have success. when AJ Brown had that team meeting and said we have to start trusting our coaches, the season was already over at that point. Because as soon as you say that and have a team meeting, you’re not getting the trust back. You’re telling me you already lost it in that area. Without the trust you are going to have fractions and disconnect which leads to the huge cliff they fell off off and eventually not putting in the effort or listening to the coach

I agree with your last part. I think AJ Brown gave up. And I think that whole team meeting that he had was because everybody knew it and he was trying to rectify the situation that he knew was being brought to light. But by that point in time he had already eroded to the point that it did. The biggest issue I see with the Eagles is that they don’t have these young players that I would look at and say man that guy is a leader. Like I don’t think AJ Brown is the guy you want being your leader. DeVonta Smith as much as I love him I think he’s less talkative type leader and more he’s gonna show you on the field. The Eagles need young guys to step into leadership roles of Jason Kelce, Brandon Graham, and lane Johnson. Frankly, it’s why I think when some of those guys are gone next year and adversity hits again, there is a good chance they’re going to have the same problem they had this year. They’re missing or guys haven’t stepped into the next generation of leaders. Maybe they step into it once those guys are gone. But that is a concern for me. Along with will guys trust sirianni when adversity hits again 
 

41 minutes ago, Wentz_Era said:

10 years of a team he’s had a huge part in falling apart…what else do you need?  He can’t adjust.  It’s literally his entire recent resume.

2019 was his 1st season in the NFL taking over the worst team in football. 3-4-1 and then 2-6.

2020 he started 5-3 and then 3-5. Defense gave up 27.6 points per game the 2nd half of the year. That’s worse than our defense this year (25.1) Offense scored 25.8 ppg in the 2nd half. That would have been 7th this year.

2021 he started 7-1. Then 4-5. Murray played injured and they lost Watt (after week 7) and Hopkins (after week 14) to IR. Two best players. Conner also missed a few games in the last 4 weeks. Lost their starting DT to IR in the 2nd half as well. 

2022: Lost Murray for the last 7 games

5 minutes ago, MillerTime said:

2019 was his 1st season in the NFL taking over the worst team in football. 3-4-1 and then 2-6.

2020 he started 5-3 and then 3-5. Defense gave up 27.6 points the 2nd half of the year. That’s worse than our defense this year (25.1)

2021 he started 7-1. Then 4-5. Murray played injured and they lost Watt (after week 7) and Hopkins (after week 14) to IR. Two best players. Conner also missed a few games in the last 4 weeks. Lost their starting DT to IR in the 2nd half as well. 

2022: Lost Murray for the last 7 games

Take this for what it’s worth, have a friend who covers the Cardinals. And when the whole Kliff Kingsbury situation happen and got fired, what he told me was people in that organization didn’t think he could be a head coach at nfl level anymore. They didn’t think he could handle all the stuff that comes with being a head coach. He also wasn’t hard enough on guys like murray and Deandre Hopkins. He had too much on his plate. Was told they liked him as a person and well liked in the organization. But thought he’d be better off going back to college being an OC for a couple years. Learning from his HC experience and building up his resume as OC and maybe getting back to being a HC at the college level like he was at Texas tech.

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Take this for what it’s worth, have a friend who covers the Cardinals. And when the whole Kliff Kingsbury situation happen and got fired, what he told me was people in that organization didn’t think he could be a head coach at nfl level anymore. They didn’t think you could handle all the stuff that comes with being a head coach. He also wasn’t hard enough on guys like murray and Deandre Hopkins. Was told they liked him as a person and thought he’d be better off going back to college being an OC for a couple years. Learning from his HC experience and building up his resume and maybe getting back to being a HC at the college level like he was at Texas tech.

I’m not saying I’d want him for head coach but I think he could be a very good OC in the NFL.

3 minutes ago, MillerTime said:

I’m not saying I’d want him for head coach but I think he could be a very good OC in the NFL.

The second paragraph concerns me in this (ignore the mahomes part or failing as a HC— not what concerns me as much). Basically you aren’t going to run motion and you aren’t going under center. It’s 2 things i believe the eagles need to start doing more. Kingsbury was 30th in motion and 32nd in under center in his time with the cardinals. Frankly I’d go with Zac robinson of the rams. I think eagles should try to incorporate more of the mcvay/shanahan type of offense with the players they have 

 

 

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

The second paragraph concerns me in this (ignore the mahomes part or failing as a HC— not what concerns me as much). Basically you aren’t going to run motion and you aren’t going under center. It’s 2 things i believe the eagles need to start doing more. Kingsbury was 30th in motion and 32nd in under center in his time with the cardinals. Frankly I’d go with Zac robinson of the rams. I think eagles should try to incorporate more of the mcvay/shanahan type of offense with the players they have 

 

The Eagles ranked 7th despite all that in PPG this year. Just a different philosophy. Both can work. We failed because we refused to run the ball, use the middle of the field, and use quick routes. All 3 are strengths of Kingsbury. His offense schemes WRs open and will force Hurts to develop with quick decisions.

Zac Robinson doesn’t call plays and idk if he and Siri will see eye to eye on offense. I’m not interested. Nor should he be. The Eagles situation would be a big risk for him with a lot of other options. He will be a Bengal.

13 hours ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

If that was the case then Nick would have been shown the door like Pederson.  Doug stuck up for his guys and it cost him his job.  

Who exactly do you think were Nick's guys? Sean Desai, Matt Patricia and Brian Johnson ain't it. Those were organisational hires  he was primarily hired due to relationship with Hurts and a solid background but probably more of an organisational decision.

The list of Siri guys on our coaching staff for sure: Shane Steichen was. Jonathan Gannon was. Marcus Brady is. Kevin Patullo is. Jason Michael is.

Others like Aaron Moorehead, DK McDonald, DJ Eliot and Alex Tanney aren't necessarily Siri guys either. I think most of them will be gone as well. Had coaching issues at each of those position groups and I don't see any obvious links to Siri.

I don’t care for the character or leadership questions about Hurts right now in the same way I didn’t care for people inflating Hurts on the same intangibles 2 years ago.

He’s 25.  Im looking for a great passer, not Winston Churchill.  Too many people try to manufacture QBs into leaders so early in their career.  Brady wasn’t that at 25.  You think any locker room or spiraling team with 3 HOF players in the locker room over 30 is primarily looking to any 25 year old qb to keep them together?  I don’t care that he’s quiet and likes to sit alone on the side of the bench.  Pass like an all pro and that’s incredible calm and poise.  Play like crap and you are dejected and aloof.  
 

Just be better.  The crap product on the field gave us enough to chew on.  Want to know what’s wrong in the locker room?  It’s not someone’s personality.  It’s losing.  

35 minutes ago, MillerTime said:

The Eagles ranked 7th despite all that in PPG this year. Just a different philosophy. Both can work. We failed because we refused to run the ball, use the middle of the field, and use quick routes. All 3 are strengths of Kingsbury. His offense schemes WRs open and will force Hurts to develop with quick decisions.

Zac Robinson doesn’t call plays and idk if he and Siri will see eye to eye on offense. I’m not interested. Nor should he be. The Eagles situation would be a big risk for him with a lot of other options. He will be a Bengal.

They were 7th in ppg this year cause first 9 weeks they were good. The last 9 (including playoffs) they weren’t. First 9 games they averaged 28 ppg. The last 9 games they scored 21.1 ppg. They failed to score in the 20s in 5 of those 8 games. Only 1 time the first 9 weeks. I think teams figured out a scheme that didn’t use the middle of the field but also hardly used motion to create mismatches and maximize players and hardly ever went under center besides the tush push. 

Frankly i don’t think it’s sirianni’s choice. I think it’s howie and lurie who are going to pick. So seeing eye to eye is more with lurie and howie have want. Tend to think howie and lurie will give him 1-2 options to choose from.  

Also, the issues people had down with Arizona was that they didn’t use motion enough to maximize guys like hollywood brown and Rondale Moore (and Hopkins before he got hurt and quit). Part of the reason he got fired besides his second half collapses every year. His running game also deteriorated each consecutive year from 2020-2022 and it was more murray would run a lot early then get beat up and they’d see a significant drop off as he was banged up. I live out in Arizona. I have a friend who covers the team. I know all about kingsbury and the cardinals offense. Probably more than I should because I’ve seen almost every single Cardinals game almost every single year because I’m forced to watch that as the late game every Sunday 

This isn’t kingsbury sucks and don’t hire him. This is i prefer someone who’s learned under mcvay, uses motion and middle of the field, seen how to maximize his best players (Nuka and kupp) an is viewed similarly to what slowik was last year when he went with Ryan to the Texans. That said, I don’t think Robinson is even remotely interested in the Eagles OC job. So that part of it is a moot point.

35 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

 

Wasn’t Tiger Woods taking his side chicks to Wendy’s?

23 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

They were 7th in ppg this year cause first 9 weeks they were good. The last 8 (including playoffs) they weren’t. First 9 games they averaged 28 ppg. The last 9 games they scored 21.1 ppg. They failed to score in the 20s in 5 of those 8 games. Only 1 time the first 9 weeks. I think teams figured out a scheme that didn’t use the middle of the field but also hardly used motion to create mismatches and maximize players and hardly ever went under center besides the tush push. 

Frankly i don’t think it’s sirianni’s choice. I think it’s howie and lurie who are going to pick. So seeing eye to eye is more with lurie and howie have want. Tend to think howie and lurie will give him 1-2 options to choose from.  

Also, the issues people had down with Arizona was that they didn’t use motion enough to maximize guys like hollywood brown and Rondale Moore (and Hopkins before he got hurt and quit). Part of the reason he got fired besides his second half collapses every year. His running game also deteriorated each consecutive year and it was more murray would run a lot early then get beat up and they’d see a significant drop off as he was banged up. I live out in Arizona. I have a friend who covers the team. I know all about kingsbury and the cardinals offense. Probably more than I should because I’ve seen almost every single Cardinals game almost every single year because I’m forced to watch that as the late game every Sunday 

I wasn’t beating down the door for him but I liked the idea of him and how he can benefit where we were weak on offense. You gave me detailed reasons and not just a generic he falls apart in the 2nd half with no context.

I don’t see Robinson wanting to come here and I don’t see the team rolling the dice with another OC who has never called plays since Siri can’t. Siri should have been fired.

I do think our 2nd half offense failed more because we refused to adjust to the blitz and use the middle of the field than motions and being under center though. 

14 minutes ago, MillerTime said:

I wasn’t beating down the door for him but I liked the idea of him and how he can benefit where we were weak on offense. You gave me detailed reasons and not just a generic he falls apart in the 2nd half with no context.

I don’t see Robinson wanting to come here and I don’t see the team rolling the dice with another OC who has never called plays since Siri can’t. Siri should have been fired.

The bigger issue I see in all of this, all the guys that have experience as offensive coordinators with play calling experience, aren’t that impressive to me. Like reich, kingsbury, cooter are guys you could hire. But none of them really do much for me. I think the younger guys with less experience intrigue me more with what they could bring like Kubiak, robinson or even Garrett Riley. I actually think the experienced DC are much more exciting to me: Frazier, lovie smith, evero and Patrick graham  

I don’t think Robinson is remotely interested in this job. Why we haven’t heard his name pop up. I think like you that the eagles want someone with experience as they just went Johnson and it didn’t work out. I just prefer what robinson could incorporate from the mcvay offense with guys we have. Or Klint Kubiak  but i think neither are likely 

That said I’ve thought we regress more next year and everyone is gone in the coaching staff besides stoutland if he doesn’t retire

 

2 hours ago, Wentz_Era said:

Make it 10 years in a row now after USC this season.  

Think they were saying as a HC which he wasn't this year.

USC collapsed mostly because their defense was terrible and just like the Eagles changed DC mid season. 

And also because Lincoln Riley is highly overrated. 

I am pretty sure the Eagles are going to hire an OC with previous playcalling experience based off the fact they hired Brian Johnson, who had none. And it ultimately failed.

But I think that’s the wrong way to go about this. I don’t want to hire a guy over another because he has had previous playcalling experience. i want to hire the guy that impressed me the most and I believe can work with sirianni to get the most out of the talent we have and get this offense back to a top 3 offense. Ben Johnson is the opposite of Brian Johnson. Ben never called plays before going to the lions and got put into that situation and thrived. Whereas Brian didn’t. Don’t eliminate young up and comers cause you had a bad experience this year cause you might miss out on a slowik or Ben Johnson cause they didn’t have play calling experience prior to coming here 

34 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

Think they were saying as a HC which he wasn't this year.

USC collapsed mostly because their defense was terrible and just like the Eagles changed DC mid season. 

And also because Lincoln Riley is highly overrated. 

Kliff is highly overrated as well…history shows that.  His O is trash.  It looks good here and there, but no long term sustainability.  10 years plus of proof.

7 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

Why do you feel that way?

the general awfulness of the Eagles fans.   I really don't want to keep a compartment of my brain dedicated to "bad things the Eagles fans do"  but it includes booing and chanting "run the ball" when the offense was on the field.   Slay mentioned how not playing at home was a good thing,  to avoid bad Eagles fans.  

2 hours ago, Wentz_Era said:

Kliff is highly overrated as well…history shows that.  His O is trash.  It looks good here and there, but no long term sustainability.  10 years plus of proof.

Says the guy who wants to run it back with BJ…. Who by the way hasn’t won anything in 13 years of coaching going by your standards.