6 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Trades and free agents - Howie is great at gathering information and making deals.  

This I can agree with.... I just don't want him picking the trade targets, especially in season.

 

While a 5th round pick isn't something to get excited about, I still love that he turned two 7ths last year into a 5th this year.  

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I know, right?

Sorry I can't do it.    They have NOT been 'mostly fine' in that area.

Every team has misses. Every team is bad at drafting one specific position.

The data is the data.

2 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Howie should do contracts and cap management

and nothing else

I don’t think he’s a bum or should lose that kind of decision making. I just think the excuse making is over the top. Andre Dillard was a failure of Howie and the scouting department due to awful process. Rasul never fit Schwartz’s scheme. Marcus Smith was a failure regardless of coaching staff (mental illness played a role). Sidney Jones was a bad risk. Barnett wasn’t worth the pick. Davion Taylor was a terrible pick no matter who the DC was. Nakobe hasn’t shown enough even when briefly healthy. Davis isn’t a bad player but he hasn’t proven to be worth the investment. 

11 minutes ago, paco said:

This I can agree with.... I just don't want him picking the trade targets, especially in season.

 

While a 5th round pick isn't something to get excited about, I still love that he turned two 7ths last year into a 5th this year.  

Wasn’t it two 6s? And that pick turned into Trey Palmer. We could really use him, funnily enough. 

1 hour ago, HazletonEagle said:

Its hard to fault someone when there is nothing to fault them for. Youre talking like there is an issue when there is not.

Howie is the new Teflon Don.   He's never done anything even approaching a misstep.  Every move he's ever made has been perfect.

2 hours ago, HazletonEagle said:

I deny that the talent is undeniably bad. depth was an issue at LB. It was thin at DE but we luckily stayed healthy there and even traded one away. It was excellent at outside CB. There was none at nickel which hurt us for a few weeks but Roby was a solid signing when healthy. The safety position was deep, but unproven and even with its depth it was severely tested with injuries. Evans in the first game, Blankenship and Brown both missed time. Traded away Edmonds. Byard came on board... Lot of guys capable of playing there. But had to cycle through all of them.

So, what I am reading here is that the secondary wasn't a complete crap show?  We were excellent at outside CB, and had 'capable' guys playing at safety?   

 

I wonder what the issues on defense were then.   

13 minutes ago, RLC said:

Every team has misses. Every team is bad at drafting one specific position.

The data is the data.

Yep.  The data is absolutely the data.   And the data says that Howie's drafting at any position on defense other than DL has been putrid.  And even the DL picks have been rather inconsistent.   And mostly focusing on the Derek Barnett and Jordan Davis picks... you'd want better production for those picks.

 

And yes... every team has misses.  But, when its so systemic across years... maybe reevaluate what you are doing at those positions.   Where are the 'analytics' on this?  

Every team has coaching and coordinator changes. There are veterans on this team who have been under 4 head coaches and many coordinators yet they perform no matter what. Players from from other teams come here via free agency and trade and perform. It's not changing coordinators. The GM has to have a core philosophy (more than just we draft linemen) and make every hire and roster move against that.

Even so, the game evolves and players adapt to new schemes and playbooks all the time. There are situations where players aren't utilized properly or aren't the best fit for a scheme. But mainly, talented players adapt and good coaches help them adjust.

16 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I’m don’t think he’s a bum or should lose that kind of decision making. I just think the excuse making is over the top. Andre Dillard was a failure of Howie and the scouting department due to awful process. Rasul never fit Schwartz’s scheme. Marcus Smith was a failure regardless of coaching staff (mental illness played a role). Sidney Jones was a bad risk. Barnett wasn’t worth the pick. Davion Taylor was a terrible pick no matter who the DC was. Nakobe hasn’t shown enough even when briefly healthy. Davis isn’t a bad player but he hasn’t proven to be worth the investment. 

Precisely.

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I know, right?

Sorry, I can't do it.    They have NOT been 'mostly fine' in that area.    At the WR position, they have swung and missed so many times that they basically surrendered and gave up a first round pick and $100M to bring in a true WR 1.   Glad they did finally find a nugget with Davonta Smith just the year before... but the WR draft pick graveyard over the years of the likes of Nelson Agholor, Jalen Reagor, Jordan Matthews, Josh Huff... just abysmal.  So much so that they ended one year with Greg Ward as the leading receptions leader and Travis Fulgham as the top yards producer.    That's not just bad, that's blatant incompetence.

Shall we discuss defensive backs next?   Just bleak.  They have had to go out and sign free agent, after free agent for the secondary precisely because their draft picks have been so bad.

Defensively, they have drafted one guy who flashes talent to be a perennial All-Pro in the future.   That means, that they lose Cox, and they replace him with Carter.  That's nice.   But that's it defensively.   Everything else is hoping and wishing.  Dean?  Undersized and may never be able to handle the punishment of playing in the middle in the NFL.  Ringo?  Hope and prayers that he can be serviceable (but that's where I'd put his ceiling) on the outside.  All we can say about him right now is that he's likely better than Bradberry.  Not exactly high praise.  At Safety?  We have a heat seeking missile in Sydney Brown who plays with his hair on fire, but seemingly with his eyes closed.  And we have Blankenship, everybody's favorite... but still likely no better than a #3 S.  Oh.. and Josh Sweat, a guy we hope can keep his knees healthy enough to play, and also hope he can do way more than the nothing he provided in 2023.

 

This team has gone the route of trying to squeeze years out of aging vets on the defensive side of the ball for YEARS now because of how poorly they've managed their draft resources and have selected on that side of the ball over the years.   They have traded away mid-round picks that could have been used on some depth pieces or lottery picks for guys that literally HURT the team... Robert Quinn, Kevin Byard... and have spent pennies on other free agents at important positions because they have over invested offensively and had very little left over for the defense... unless you think spending $8M total on the likes of Cunningham, Leonard, Byard, Evans, and Edmunds... that to go back to years where they targeted guys like Andrew Sandejo, Anthony Harris, etc.    It's been band-aids, chewing gum and duct tape for a while on defense.  And a lot of it has to do with their inability to draft defensive players.... and that includes giving away picks to trade for defensive players that also can't play anymore!    

Offensively, the team has done very well on the o-line.  WR has been below average both in drafting and in free agency.  The best FA signing was Alshon.  The trade for AJ Brown was a great deal for the team.  I agree with the rest of your take on the position.  RB the team has done pretty well in the draft as they have at TE.  

Defensively, the team has done above average at DT.  They have had decent success in FA.  They also hit on a number of key depth players in later rounds.  Yes, Josh Sweat has a bad knee but he's been a good player and has played well.  Signing Reddick was a below market deal.  I think the jury is still out on the rookie class from last season.  One reason I think trading Reddick isn't bad is because they need to get Nolan Smith on the field. It was clear that Bradberry should have been benched last season.  LB has been a crap fest. Davion Taylor was a terrible pick.   There's been nothing in free agency since Nigel Bradham.  They have been average at CB.  Trading for Slay was a reasonable deal for the team.  Bradberry was a good pick up on a one year deal.  Signing him last season was bad.  Trading for CJGJ was a decent move.  They haven't invested much in terms of top 100 picks in the defensive backfield.  

 

11 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Howie is the new Teflon Don.   He's never done anything even approaching a misstep.  Every move he's ever made has been perfect.

His only mistake was trusting others too much. 

Howie has actually drafted well on offense other than WR. The reason he hit on DeVonta is because he was picking at #10. He picks well high in the 1st because it's more of a no brainer pick. It is likely the consensus on their board and less disagreement from scouts and coaches. Picking high produced Lane Johnson, Wentz, DeVonta, Jalen Carter. Jordan Davis is questionable especially trading up for him. But the offense has mostly home grown draft picks. The entire O line, a star WR in Smith, QB, TE, a couple of the RBs, and some depth.

Howie doesn't draft well on defense, or when picking later than 15 in the 1st round.

The defensive drafting has been a huge problem. No 1st round corner in 22 years, LB in 55 years, Safety in 66 years. They roll out garbage at LB. In the secondary they rely on aging free agents and scrubs. 4th round picks and later, undrafted free agents, guys they sign off the street, injury prone guys. They finally had decent LBs the SB year and let Edwards and White go and relied on an unproven 2nd year player in Dean and some scrubs.

They invested so much at DT that position should be absolutely dominant and last year it wasn't. They were gassed, couldn't stop the run. Davis was a gamble, they always said that. He hadn't played all snaps in college. He had conditioning issues. But they traded up for him and gave up 3 additional draft picks. You expect more.

Howie is picking at 22 (unless he trades). His picks there have been the likes of Marcus Smith, the fireman and Reagor. Yikes.

3 hours ago, HazletonEagle said:

Workouts today. 

Rest day 

9 hours ago, brkmsn said:

For the most part, the father / son pattern has been successful lately. It's not a bad gamble with players in the draft.

And then there’s Reagor…

9 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

And then there’s Reagor…

Poor Howie. If Doug Pederson didn’t make him pick Reagor because of his NFL bloodlines we’d have picked Justin Jefferson instead. 

Things going well in Dallas. 

50 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Maddox was supposed to be the Nickel and McPhearson his backup. Both were drafted by us and both had major injuries. Maddox' injury history is a shame because of his talent. When you lose both your starter and his backup by week 2, things will be rocky. But it's weird for some to blame "drafting" in this particular case. 

Avonte Maddox was drafted in 2018 and has never played a full slate of games, McPhearson was drafted 3 years ago and has made one start that entire time.

Here's a list of all the defensive backs drafted by the Eagles since 2012

Brandon Boykin CB Rd 4 2012 no extension

Earl Wolff S Rd 5 2013 no extension

Jordan Poyer S Rd 7 2013 no extension

Jaylen Watkins S Rd 4 2014 no extension

Ed Reynolds S Rd 5 2014 no extension

Eric Rowe CB Rd 2 2015 no extension

JaCorey Shepherd CB Rd 6 2015 no extension

Randall Evans CB Rd 6 2015 no extension

Blake Countess S Rd 6 2016 no extension

Jalen Mills CB Rd 7 2016 1 year extension

Sydney Jones CB Rd 2 2017 no extension

Rasul Douglas CB Rd 3 2017 no extension

Avonte Maddox CB Rd 4 2018 3 year extension signed in 2021 (has played 13 games total first 2 seasons of it)

K'von Wallace S Rd 4 2020  No extension

Zech McPhearson CB Rd 4 2021 1 start at corner in 3 years

Jacoby Stevens S Rd 6 2021, Waived year 2

Sydney Brown S Rd 3 2023

Kelee Ringo CB Rd 4 2023

 

If that's successful drafting, what would failure look like, we've had better results with late round fliers than rounds 2 to 4. We can argue about talent recognition missing guys like Poyer when they cut him. but still the return on a boatload of picks in terms of regular starters is abysmal.

 

 

57 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Wasn’t it two 6s? And that pick turned into Trey Palmer. We could really use him, funnily enough. 

Two 7ths to a 6th to a future 5th

Quote

On Saturday afternoon, the Eagles traded two of their seventh-round picks (Nos. 230 and 248) to get pick No. 191 from the Texans in the sixth round.

And then a little over 40 minutes later, Roseman flipped No. 191 for a fifth-round pick from Tampa Bay in 2024. So in less than an hour, Roseman turned two sevenths into a five.

That pick is 160 in this years draft.

Just now, paco said:

Two 7ths to a 6th to a future 5th

 

Since I'm at it, here is who each of those picks turned into:

 

191  Tampa Bay Buccaneers    Trey Palmer     WR

230  Buffalo Bills    Nick Broeker     OG

248  Houston Texans    Brandon Hill     S

 

Now that it's combine season...my 2 cents on workouts:

+ They matter.  If they didn't, they wouldn't have them.  GM's wouldn't go there with stopwatches.  

-  The way in which they matter is subjective art, not objective science.  It tells you about what a player is and is not capable of.  Don't look for statistical correlation, RAS scores.  But use it as one of many brushes at your disposal to paint a picture of what to expect from a prospect.

+  Don't tell me a 4.2 WR will automatically be a great deep threat...BUT...don't tell me that just sliding under 4.5 is "fast enough" either.  A 4.50 WR may be an all-pro, but they aren't winning many footraces against CBs and they aren't winning many go-routes unless they are out of this world with contested catches.  Plan accordingly.

+ Is an OL ever going to meaningfully run 40 yards?  Nope.  But are you really going to tell me it doesn't mean something when a blind side blocker runs an eye poppingly good (or bad) 40?  It tells you something about their functional athleticism.

Some examples supporting or refuting the combine:

+ Reagor (and DK Metcalf).  There is some misperception out there that drafting Reagor over Jefferson is exhibit 1a of overemphasizing the combine.  It's actually exhibit 1a of ignoring it.  Pre-combine, Ruggs was 1a and Reagor was 1b in the list of top WR burner/deep threat prospects in the 2020 draft.  Reagor looked pretty fast on tape too.  Jefferson was, far and away, the most productive and dynamic WR in college football...but the knock was that the elite deep speed wasn't there.  The Eagles craved speed that year (as they should have; they previously constructed the NFL's slowest offense).  Reagor had a terrible combine, highlighted by a 4.47 and abysmal agility drills.  Jefferson went on run a faster 40 in Indy.  In pads, in the pros...that combine was prophetic for Reagor, who is pretty sluggish.  If they put more stock in the combine in 2019 and 2020, they'd have drafted DK Metcalf and Justin Jefferson instead of JJAW and Reagor.

+ Jeremy Maclin.  Was supposed to be Desean 2.0 combing out of college (just bigger, taller, longer).  He really surprised with a 4.48 and slow split in Indy.  He had a really nice pro career, but that combine 40 was also prophetic.  He wasn't that kind of burner and the objective workouts foreshadowed that.

- Jordan Davis.  I get it that his book isn't finished.  But he has been in the NFL for half of his non-option rookie contract already.  6'6" 341, 4.78, 32" vert.  The numbers were silly, no precedent for that.  Does that result in a DL that is just unblockable and unstoppable?  Those numbers ARE the reason we traded up for him in round 1.  Not his tape, not his production.  Those numbers. And that question has been answered: No.  Jordan Davis is not and likely will not be an unstoppable wrecking ball.  His upside is elite run stopper who occasionally collapses the pocket.  His present is run stopper who occasionally collapses the pocket and struggles to sustain a quality level of play with starter snaps.  

+ Lane Johnson.  Lane Johnson got drafted as high as he did because of his combine.  He was raw with less experience and less polish than the other top OL in his draft (a really, really good top of the OL draft by the way).  He was the best of them.  And do you know who, IMO, was the second best OL of his draft?  Terron Armstead.  Another raw OL drafted high mostly due to a freakish combine.  Kelce

1 hour ago, NCiggles said:

Trades and free agents - Howie is great at gathering information and making deals.  

Golden tate says hi

I think the Eagles might be better off if the tush push got banned.  Go ahead, bash me.

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

I'm guessing San Fran hasn't weighed in yet.  Probably still making excuses for not knowing how overtime works.

1 minute ago, ToastJenkins said:

Golden tate says hi

In season trades he's terrible. I don't know why... only thing I can come up with is there is less time to plan and execute so they are more reactionary?