16 hours ago, McMVP said:

Siri may not be as much of an idiot as many seem to think…scheme wise anyway.  Yes, it’s just a guess, but that guess has me thinking he probably knows a bit more than many give him credit for.  His main failure may have been loyalty to Johnson.  I stress ‘may’ because, of course, we don’t know for certain.  

I don't think it was loyalty, one problem with going to the SB is you're options for coaches gets constrained, and Gannon did them no favors (though the 2nd rd pick was nice).

They missed out on Fangio, and probably went with Johnson b/c he worked with Hurts and no one they really liked was available.

And it's not like the offense was terrible, it was find for 10 games, then DCs adjusted and Johnson couldn't counter-move. Sometimes you discover a coordinator or player's weakness over time, which is why I discount hot starts - these days opposing defenses can adjust much faster due to film technology - it's much easier to get film and break it down so you can quickly determine an offense's tendency, weak spots, and personnel limitations.

Anybody else find it strange we started a BAD trend last year with free agents? We had a ton of injuries last year...so what did we do? Got a bunch of injury prone players!

Leonard

Barkley

Devin White

DeJean

Paris Campell

Nothing will change. 

 

1 minute ago, austinfan said:

I don't think it was loyalty, one problem with going to the SB is you're options for coaches gets constrained, and Gannon did them no favors (though the 2nd rd pick was nice).

They missed out on Fangio, and probably went with Johnson b/c he worked with Hurts and no one they really liked was available.

And it's not like the offense was terrible, it was find for 10 games, then DCs adjusted and Johnson couldn't counter-move. Sometimes you discover a coordinator or player's weakness over time, which is why I discount hot starts - these days opposing defenses can adjust much faster due to film technology - it's much easier to get film and break it down so you can quickly determine an offense's tendency, weak spots, and personnel limitations.

It was a flip of 3rd round picks, not a 2nd.

 

13 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Hurt had an injured knee. And they wanted him to become more of a pocket QB, running is not a long-term strategy at QB. Ask Michael Vick.

The problem with the offense is it was too "college," and Johnson didn't adjust when opposing DCs made their adjustments. It didn't help that they lacked a TE2 or WR3 who could take some pressure off the big 3 to make plays every game. But the lack of motion, inability to adjust to zero blitzes, etc., put Hurts in a tough spot where he had to run for his life on a regular basis even behind a top OL b/c no one was open.

Johnson's college offense was everything his NFL offense wasn't, in college he used motion and inventive play calling, he almost had Kyle Trask win a Heisman, turned Kyle Pitts into a Top ten pick as a TE, whereas for the Eagles he flogged the same 5 or 6 plays to death and the only motion he used was one guy to decide if it was man coverage. I suspect this new season we're about to find out just who was responsible for that.

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's an interesting narrative.   It seems you've conflated Doug with Nick.   There is no 'may', because there was no loyalty.

 

Do we not remember Sirianni's offense when he was calling plays at the beginning of his time here?   Then he turned it over to Steichen, and the offense got significantly better... and the following year with even better players, the offense was even better.  Then Steichen leaves.

It's the same personnel on offense, and yet the offense under Brian Johnson goes back to being stale.  Sirianni, supposedly, helps out, but nothing changes.   And at the end of the season, Johnson is canned.  Sirianni remains.

But, if we flashback, in 2020, with a far less talented offense, Doug's offense goes stale and the team tailspins to end the season... not as badly as the Eagles did last year, but their opening to the season wasn't as good, so they missed the playoffs.    The season ends, and Doug is retained... or so we think... but a week later, we find out Doug is canned, because he stuck with his coaches.   Doug fell on his sword for his guys.  

Which one's greatest weakness was loyalty?   And which one's weakness might just be an inability to coordinate an offense.  (Recall, when Sirianni was a coordinator, he had Frank Reich running the offense, not him.).  He was never a coordinator who called plays before he got here.   The same could be said for Doug, but Doug actually showed some ability in the play call domain during his tenure here.  Sirianni never has.    Sirianni's greatest weakness appears to be his ability as a real coordinator and play caller.  He might be a classic example of the peter principle.  It seems as though he was buoyed by his coordinators in 2021 and even more so in 2022.  Unlike Doug though, in the aftermath of 2023 when what may have been the truth came to light, he abandoned the current coordinators and saved his own skin.   Where is this 'loyalty' you speak of?

Being by nature a Devil's Advocate, I have to ask what Johnson, or Desai, or Patricia did to deserve loyalty? None of them did good work; all of them got progressively worse as the season wore on. They absolutely should have been fired, as they were. We simply don't know if or how much Sirianni lobbied to keep them. There is certainly a good argument that Sirianni deserved to be fired as well, since he hired them, but there is also a counter-argument that he kept the team together for more than half the season despite those inept coordinators.

Lurie and Roseman opted to keep Sirianni. We don't know what went on in their meetings or how they judged him. It's worth recalling that they expected to have Gannon for the 2023 season and lost him at the last moment. They had his successor picked out - Fangio - but he couldn't wait forever and went to Miami. It most likely would have been a very different year if either Gannon or Fangio had been the DC, though that is unknowable. Desai was an eleventh hour hire for 2023, when pickings were slim. On the offensive side, Johnson had been with the team for two years and knew the system, and Hurts, very well. It certainly did not seem to be a bad hire at the time. Of course, one could argue that promoting him to OC displayed loyalty, to return to the initial argument.

21 minutes ago, RunItBAck said:

Anybody else find it strange we started a BAD trend last year with free agents? We had a ton of injuries last year...so what did we do? Got a bunch of injury prone players!

Leonard

Barkley

Devin White

DeJean

Paris Campell

Nothing will change. 

 

I don't think the Eagles had any more injuries than the league average -- probably even less.  Maddox and Dean were the only starters lost for an extended portion of the season, and neither of them are irreplaceable.  

Barkley is the only player on your list the Eagles have made any significant commitment to.  I'm not as bullish on him as most on here, but if he minimizes the physical toll Hurts has to absorb, then he's provided a significant benefit.  

16 minutes ago, just relax said:

Being by nature a Devil's Advocate, I have to ask what Johnson, or Desai, or Patricia did to deserve loyalty? None of them did good work; all of them got progressively worse as the season wore on. They absolutely should have been fired, as they were. We simply don't know if or how much Sirianni lobbied to keep them. There is certainly a good argument that Sirianni deserved to be fired as well, since he hired them, but there is also a counter-argument that he kept the team together for more than half the season despite those inept coordinators.

Lurie and Roseman opted to keep Sirianni. We don't know what went on in their meetings or how they judged him. It's worth recalling that they expected to have Gannon for the 2023 season and lost him at the last moment. They had his successor picked out - Fangio - but he couldn't wait forever and went to Miami. It most likely would have been a very different year if either Gannon or Fangio had been the DC, though that is unknowable. Desai was an eleventh hour hire for 2023, when pickings were slim. On the offensive side, Johnson had been with the team for two years and knew the system, and Hurts, very well. It certainly did not seem to be a bad hire at the time. Of course, one could argue that promoting him to OC displayed loyalty, to return to the initial argument.

We have a previous period of Sirianni play calling that looked awful like last season, in terms of Desai, the front office let the linebackers room degenerate into a bunch of injuries and JAG's which was ultimately exposed by a brutal mid season schedule including playing a 49ers team which could have been AI designed to expose a team that lacked talent at off ball linebacker and slot corner. I've said a few times I think Desai could have got a couple more wins down the stretch and that dumping him midseason turned a blip into a catastrophic collapse.

I wouldn't have employed Patricia in the first place, his entire career was built on calling Bellichick's scheme and he's been exposed as an unpopular clown everywhere else he's turned up.

1 minute ago, just relax said:

Being by nature a Devil's Advocate, I have to ask what Johnson, or Desai, or Patricia did to deserve loyalty? None of them did good work; all of them got progressively worse as the season wore on. They absolutely should have been fired, as they were. We simply don't know if or how much Sirianni lobbied to keep them. There is certainly a good argument that Sirianni deserved to be fired as well, since he hired them, but there is also a counter-argument that he kept the team together for more than half the season despite those inept coordinators.

Lurie and Roseman opted to keep Sirianni. We don't know what went on in their meetings or how they judged him. It's worth recalling that they expected to have Gannon for the 2023 season and lost him at the last moment. They had his successor picked out - Fangio - but he couldn't wait forever and went to Miami. It most likely would have been a very different year if either Gannon or Fangio had been the DC, though that is unknowable. Desai was an eleventh hour hire for 2023, when pickings were slim. On the offensive side, Johnson had been with the team for two years and knew the system, and Hurts, very well. It certainly did not seem to be a bad hire at the time. Of course, one could argue that promoting him to OC displayed loyalty, to return to the initial argument.

They did nothing to deserve loyalty.  That wasn't the point I was making.  My point was that Sirianni's issues had nothing to do with loyalty to Johnson.  Quite the contrary.  His issues seems to be a lack of ideas.

And yes, I was on team Fire Nick.  He deserved to be fired.  And, I'd argue that the TEAM kept themselves together by winning despite the coaches much more than Sirianni did anything to keep them together.  On the contrary, it was when he flipped the DC (his decision according to his own statement) the team fell apart completely.  Therefore, the argument would be that he pulled the plug on the season and sunk what started as a promising season.

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

They did nothing to deserve loyalty.  That wasn't the point I was making.  My point was that Sirianni's issues had nothing to do with loyalty to Johnson.  Quite the contrary.  His issues seems to be a lack of ideas.

And yes, I was on team Fire Nick.  He deserved to be fired.  And, I'd argue that the TEAM kept themselves together by winning despite the coaches much more than Sirianni did anything to keep them together.  On the contrary, it was when he flipped the DC (his decision according to his own statement) the team fell apart completely.  Therefore, the argument would be that he pulled the plug on the season and sunk what started as a promising season.

No argument from me that flipping the DC was a catastrophic mistake. I do wonder, however, if it was Sirianni's decision to hire Patricia in the first place. That felt to me like Lurie's decision that was forced on Nick. I have no evidence for this, just a gut feeling.

8 minutes ago, just relax said:

No argument from me that flipping the DC was a catastrophic mistake. I do wonder, however, if it was Sirianni's decision to hire Patricia in the first place. That felt to me like Lurie's decision that was forced on Nick. I have no evidence for this, just a gut feeling.

That's fair.   But, I have to go on face value.   Sirianni called pulling the plug on Desai and inserting Patricia his move.  So... he should take the fall for it.   One man's opinion.

Clown organization. They committed to Rodgers, which is fine, but then completely capitulated to hiring players and coaches he wants. That's not how you build a football team. Anyone hiring Hackett off what he did with the Broncos deserves whatever is coming to them. And now instead of firing him they tried to keep him(probably to appease Rodgers) by bringing in someone above him to run the show in some Seinfeld esque crap.

6 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's fair.   But, I have to go on face value.   Sirianni called pulling the plug on Desai and inserting Patricia his move.  So... he should take the fall for it.   One man's opinion.

Also fair. So, we agree that Sirianni made a big mistake there. Obvious question: was keeping Desai in the DC job preferable, excluding hindsight?

My answer is: probably, but not by much.

50 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I think its fair to say that "punters" are not football players.   

Up until recently this was true. Punters are becoming absolute units anymore. There are more 6-4 220+ punters in the NFL than there are Eagles LB the same size. 

 

28 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

They did nothing to deserve loyalty.  That wasn't the point I was making.  My point was that Sirianni's issues had nothing to do with loyalty to Johnson.  Quite the contrary.  His issues seems to be a lack of ideas.

And yes, I was on team Fire Nick.  He deserved to be fired.  And, I'd argue that the TEAM kept themselves together by winning despite the coaches much more than Sirianni did anything to keep them together.  On the contrary, it was when he flipped the DC (his decision according to his own statement) the team fell apart completely.  Therefore, the argument would be that he pulled the plug on the season and sunk what started as a promising season.

Unfortunately Sirianni isn't going anywhere for a while.  He's best friends with @vikas83

10 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Clown organization. They committed to Rodgers, which is fine, but then completely capitulated to hiring players and coaches he wants. That's not how you build a football team. Anyone hiring Hackett off what he did with the Broncos deserves whatever is coming to them. And now instead of firing him they tried to keep him(probably to appease Rodgers) by bringing in someone above him to run the show in some Seinfeld esque crap.

What was Hackett supposed to do with Wilson at QB? everybody in New York knew he wasn't good enough before they traded for Rodgers, it's not Hackett's fault Wilson can't play, You could put any OC you want in charge of that offense and you're going nowhere with Wilson there.  Hackett had the Packers as the highest scoring offense in the league and Rodgers won his last two MVP's with Hackett as OC, that was what got him the Denver job, and Payton showed just how washed Russ Wilson was when he came in.

i would also say that the source there doesn't look exactly top drawer.

28 minutes ago, just relax said:

No argument from me that flipping the DC was a catastrophic mistake. I do wonder, however, if it was Sirianni's decision to hire Patricia in the first place. That felt to me like Lurie's decision that was forced on Nick. I have no evidence for this, just a gut feeling.

I think that the Patricia hire initially was to tap into his defensive mind thinking it would be a New England (re: Belichek) defensive input.  When Desai kept failing miserably on third down, they turned to Patricia but Desai was involved in the defensive game planning but Patricia insisted on his terminology.  Mismatch during midseason was doomed.  

Now, in my mind, there are two major components of the Belichek approach to defense.  First is that use of the back seven and how Saban’s secondary genius rubbed off on Belichek.  They remained close.  But the key Belichek part is very similar to what Fangio spouts.  Be prepared for and install everything to insure flexibility in games and throughout the season.  You hear the same from Belichek’s former players that you hear from Fangio.  I can see why the Miami players that revolted did.  That’s why some players didn’t last under BB. You have players that have natural talent that are reluctant to have adjustments in their knowledge base.  Eventually that catches up with most.  I think that Belicheck knowledge was hoped for in the move but it was too late midseason and frankly, Patricia wasn’t particularly good at the BB prep thing and it hardly meshed with the light practices.

Good thing is the suggestion is that they learned from their mistake, I hope.  That’s a Lurie, Howie, Nick failure.  

Johnson didn’t prepare like Streichen. He had the same offense but was like a rookie driver in NASCAR getting in number 43 and thinking somehow the car was going to bring Petty’s knowledge with it, when that knowledge included the field for the car but also prep for all track conditions and how the other drivers present.  Problem for Johnson is Nick didn’t do the prep thing for offense like Steichen.  I think Moore’s prep isn’t quite Streichen’s but his originality is higher.  I am cautiously optimistic.

1 minute ago, just relax said:

Also fair. So, we agree that Sirianni made a big mistake there. Obvious question: was keeping Desai in the DC job preferable, excluding hindsight?

My answer is: probably, but not by much.

Agree.   I was desperate to see change, so I was on board with the decision, BUT in so stating, I said that it could blow up catastrophically.  It was a boom or bust type decision in mid-stream.  It would either improve things, or it could blow up.  It was the type of move that could cost a person their job... but, it didn't.  🤷‍♂️.  Makes one think it might have been an idea from above... but there's no evidence, just tea leaf reading.  

25 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Up until recently this was true. Punters are becoming absolute units anymore. There are more 6-4 220+ punters in the NFL than there are Eagles LB the same size. 

 

Not all of them.   

11 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

What was Hackett supposed to do with Wilson at QB? everybody in New York knew he wasn't good enough before they traded for Rodgers, it's not Hackett's fault Wilson can't play, You could put any OC you want in charge of that offense and you're going nowhere with Wilson there.  Hackett had the Packers as the highest scoring offense in the league and Rodgers won his last two MVP's with Hackett as OC, that was what got him the Denver job, and Payton showed just how washed Russ Wilson was when he came in.

i would also say that the source there doesn't look exactly top drawer.

Payton didn't show anything.  He didn't trade for Wilson and didn't want him there.  Wilson's style of play doesn't match Payton's offense, so Payton never wanted Wilson as starter.  The truth is Payton has never developed a starting QB; Brees had already been to a Pro Bowl and had years of starting experience before he ever went to New Orleans.  Payton has an offensive scheme, and Brees was a match for it.  

Wilson is a chicken salad QB; he's going to scramble around and try to improvise.  If Arthur Smith understands that and develops an offense around those attributes, perhaps Wilson can be effective there.  Fields is a chicken salad QB who's never learned to read a defense, so Smith had better design an offense around that type of QB -- because he's got two of them there.

Payton doesn't have the ability to develop a new scheme so he drafted Bo Nix to operate the one he's got.  I don't think Nix is a first round talent, so if Payton can develop him that will be a first.

1 hour ago, just relax said:

No argument from me that flipping the DC was a catastrophic mistake. I do wonder, however, if it was Sirianni's decision to hire Patricia in the first place. That felt to me like Lurie's decision that was forced on Nick. I have no evidence for this, just a gut feeling.

Given that Jeffrey is reputed to be a fan of "the Patriot Way", I wouldn't be surprised.

48 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

What was Hackett supposed to do with Wilson at QB? everybody in New York knew he wasn't good enough before they traded for Rodgers, it's not Hackett's fault Wilson can't play, You could put any OC you want in charge of that offense and you're going nowhere with Wilson there.  Hackett had the Packers as the highest scoring offense in the league and Rodgers won his last two MVP's with Hackett as OC, that was what got him the Denver job, and Payton showed just how washed Russ Wilson was when he came in.

i would also say that the source there doesn't look exactly top drawer.

tf?

Wilson had the most throws under pressure in the league (129) - Hurts had (101) 9th in the league

Wilson threw 26 Tds - 9 picks, 66.4 completion % - 63.6 pressure completion % (3rd in the league)

Hurts threw 23 TDs - 15 picks, 65.4 completion % - 56.4 pressure completion % (14th in the league)

Wilson had a WAY better season than Hurts did last year any way you slice it from a passing perspective...so if that's how you feel about russell...how do you feel about Hurts? 

 

14 hours ago, eagle45 said:

 

I don’t know if it’s loyalty or fear of plugging in guys that have under a year in the "system.”  I quote system because I really mean a year of working with the coaches and proving you’ll do the right thing.  That’s why Gainwell was starting over Swift week 1 last year.  

Even Barkley, despite being a vet, will be new to the coaches and Gainwell will be a bit of a security blanket.

Shipley is going to make more big plays than Gainwell.  I suspect he’ll actually get his number called on a higher % of the plays in which he’s on the field.  But that’s the easy part.  Gainwell will mostly be on the field for what he does on the plays in which he doesn’t get the football.

Which is why gainwell is a bad threat. His presence alone tips the defense and hea not dynamic enough when does get the ball the threaten them

11 hours ago, Outlaw said:

Finally found who RandomReglar is a clone of. 

I don't agree with that guy though.

If the Eagles want to do something unconventional,   I'm more in favor of Becton as RT (occasionally) and Lane Johnson at blocking TE/FB/,   getting Lane Johnson TDs.   Also Mailata.  Short yardage and 4th Q running out the clock.  I'm good with Steen at RG.