2 minutes ago, Procus said:

Oh poor you. Did you type that wearing your Covid mask 🤡

Yeah the government has me sitting in a hospital waiting for a bombing that may or may not ever come. But if it does, it's gonna make HEADLINES!

9 minutes ago, Procus said:

What do you call people who hide weapons in hospitals, have armed combatants serve as "doctors" in hospitals? If you were running the IDF, Israel would be an Islamic state today. You have zero clue about warfare, let alone warfare in the Mideast. Academics like you think war can be summed up behind the safety of an office, behind a desk.

Terrorists. But that doesn't mean we should behave like them in retaliation.

45 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Terrorists. But that doesn't mean we should behave like them in retaliation.

What is your protocol for dealing with an enemy that uses human shields and uses hospitals as weapons depots and launching facilities?

11 minutes ago, Procus said:

What is your protocol for dealing with an enemy that uses human shields and uses hospitals as weapons depots and launching facilities?

The answer is certainly not to indiscriminately kill those human shields.

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

More than a couple US Civil War generals would be considered war criminals by today's standards. Different time, but that's a rough comparison.

Israel has absolutely run through stop signs that rise to war crimes. They're conducting this war in a ruthless manner. Sometimes quick and brutal does the ultimate good, ending a conflict quickly. This does not feel like one of those. Bibi is being deliberate about extending that brutality over a long timeline.

Most of my close friends are Ukrainian Jews. They're pretty appalled.

See below.

2 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Yeah no point in going any further if you're gonna justify obvious criminal behavior.

There's a difference between immoral and illegal, and another difference between systemic and non-systemic war crimes. Just because you FEEL that something is criminal behavior doesn't make that something ACTUAL criminal behavior.

I've said the following before in this thread. Multiple times. Outside of certain arms, the IDF is not a western fighting force. It's forces are conscript and reserve. That doesn't make for a competent and professional fighting force. With that, there's going to be more unprofessional conduct at the lower level. That doesn't mean that such conduct was ordered by the state, it just means that the state is showing its incompetence in that area.

From an operational and strategic standpoint, should they have wrapped things up awhile ago? Yes. Could they have achieved better efforts by doing things differently? Yes. That said, doing the wrong thing and dragging one's feet about it doesn't make for a war crime. Tactically, they have been very aggressive, and infantry soldiers have committed war crimes. Those war crimes were a symptom of the incompetence of their system, however they were not at the direction of the state. There's a difference.

Complain about their strategy, their operations, their tactics all you want, and I will agree. That said. You can't say definitively that something is just because you feel it. There's rules, and constantly going to within an inch of them and staying there isn't breaking them. If you don't like it, write your Senator to ratify a treaty that changes international law. Until then, it is what it is.

37 minutes ago, Bill said:

See below.

There's a difference between immoral and illegal, and another difference between systemic and non-systemic war crimes. Just because you FEEL that something is criminal behavior doesn't make that something ACTUAL criminal behavior.

I've said the following before in this thread. Multiple times. Outside of certain arms, the IDF is not a western fighting force. It's forces are conscript and reserve. That doesn't make for a competent and professional fighting force. With that, there's going to be more unprofessional conduct at the lower level. That doesn't mean that such conduct was ordered by the state, it just means that the state is showing its incompetence in that area.

From an operational and strategic standpoint, should they have wrapped things up awhile ago? Yes. Could they have achieved better efforts by doing things differently? Yes. That said, doing the wrong thing and dragging one's feet about it doesn't make for a war crime. Tactically, they have been very aggressive, and infantry soldiers have committed war crimes. Those war crimes were a symptom of the incompetence of their system, however they were not at the direction of the state. There's a difference.

Complain about their strategy, their operations, their tactics all you want, and I will agree. That said. You can't say definitively that something is just because you feel it. There's rules, and constantly going to within an inch of them and staying there isn't breaking them. If you don't like it, write your Senator to ratify a treaty that changes international law. Until then, it is what it is.

Congratulations. You've officially become TEW when he was denying Russia was committing genocide in Ukraine. Except while he was breathlessly defending Putin, you're doing it for Bibi instead. Kewl.

6 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

2 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Congratulations. You've officially become TEW when he was denying Russia was committing genocide in Ukraine. Except while he was breathlessly defending Putin, you're doing it for Bibi instead. Kewl.

I spent the better part of a year seeing the receiving end of war crimes up close and personal. The closest you got was Twitter.

Have fun with your hyperbole.

1 minute ago, Bill said:

I spent the better part of a year seeing the receiving end of war crimes up close and personal. The closest you got was Twitter.

Have fun with your hyperbole.

And the Palestinians in Gaza haven't? Yikes, dude.

11 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

I’m not always right about Israel or Palestine, but everything I say about Sweden is true.

You're not always right about lots of stuff Dave, lmfao

17 hours ago, Bill said:

The hospital that those pos Hamas rockets fell on after they malfunctioned?

Other incidents at hospitals? You talking about when some bomb gets dropped in the vicinity of a hospital there and you act like the IAF put multiple JDAMS through every window.

All 34 of them had hamas rockets fall on them? Really? That's what you're going with? I'll take the word of the UN and WHO over an indicted criminal like BiBi any day

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/08/un-experts-appalled-relentless-israeli-attacks-gazas-healthcare-system

The World Health Organization has reported 735 attacks on health care in Gaza from 7 October 2023 to 11 June 2025, that have killed 917 persons and injured 1411, affected 125 health facilities, and damaged 34 hospitals.

Supporting this fraudster is no different than supporting Trump. It's arguably worse. Just a reminder:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu faces ongoing domestic corruption indictments for bribery, fraud, and breach of trust

16 hours ago, Procus said:

What do you call people who hide weapons in hospitals, have armed combatants serve as "doctors" in hospitals? If you were running the IDF, Israel would be an Islamic state today. You have zero clue about warfare, let alone warfare in the Mideast. Academics like you think war can be summed up behind the safety of an office, behind a desk.

Are these killer doctors in the room with us now?

15 hours ago, Procus said:

Oh poor you.

I finally get it. You're Livia Soprano. I will never picture you otherwise when reading your posts

13 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

He's currently fundraising for them.

14 hours ago, Bill said:

See below.

There's a difference between immoral and illegal, and another difference between systemic and non-systemic war crimes. Just because you FEEL that something is criminal behavior doesn't make that something ACTUAL criminal behavior.

I've said the following before in this thread. Multiple times. Outside of certain arms, the IDF is not a western fighting force. It's forces are conscript and reserve. That doesn't make for a competent and professional fighting force. With that, there's going to be more unprofessional conduct at the lower level. That doesn't mean that such conduct was ordered by the state, it just means that the state is showing its incompetence in that area.

From an operational and strategic standpoint, should they have wrapped things up awhile ago? Yes. Could they have achieved better efforts by doing things differently? Yes. That said, doing the wrong thing and dragging one's feet about it doesn't make for a war crime. Tactically, they have been very aggressive, and infantry soldiers have committed war crimes. Those war crimes were a symptom of the incompetence of their system, however they were not at the direction of the state. There's a difference.

Complain about their strategy, their operations, their tactics all you want, and I will agree. That said. You can't say definitively that something is just because you feel it. There's rules, and constantly going to within an inch of them and staying there isn't breaking them. If you don't like it, write your Senator to ratify a treaty that changes international law. Until then, it is what it is.

Nothing to do with feelings. An independant commission from the United Nations has accused them of war crimes. Stop deflecting.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2026/06/1167790

Here are some findings in the commission’s latest report:

• Israel has killed 20,000 children and injured 44,000 more since 7 October 2023

• Severe physical and mental injuries, mass trauma, orphanhood, separation, disability, repeated displacements, starvation and the collapse of education and healthcare have erased childhood and will continue to affect children in Gaza throughout their lives

• Palestinian children have been arrested and subjected to torture and other severe forms of mistreatment in Israeli prisons and detention facilities, with no information on their whereabouts

• Israeli security forces have used sexual violence against children as part of the collective shaming and oppression, entrenched within a prolonged, ethnic, gendered and intergenerational pattern of occupation and hostilities

while i'm not trying to get into this debate, israel couldn't care less about the UN and any of their findings and/or charges.

4 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

while i'm not trying to get into this debate, israel couldn't care less about the UN and any of their findings and/or charges.

Of course not, but the point was made that this isn't really happening we just "feel like it is" which is total horseshit. I can't fathom how one could be appalled by what the Russians are doing but have no issue at all with what the IDF is doing.

whether it's under explicit order, tacit orders, due to bad training, or just a willingness of the Israeli government to look the other way, there's been way too many incidents in Gaza to not call this a systemic issue.

if it was bad training the IDF would have demonstrated a good faith effort to deal with it.

I think it's tacit orders and a look the other way mentality. I'm sure there are plenty in the IDF who see things happening they know shouldn't, but there's a firm wink and nod from Bibi on down to not rase a stink about it. and those that would even start to do so are being dealt with.

given the timeline I don't see how it could continue as it has under any other scenario.

32 minutes ago, Gannan said:

Of course not, but the point was made that this isn't really happening we just "feel like it is" which is total horseshit. I can't fathom how one could be appalled by what the Russians are doing but have no issue at all with what the IDF is doing.

I've repeatedly wrote in this thread the issues that I have with the IDF and what they are doing.

That I don't get hyperbolic to the level you do does not suddenly make the issues I have "none".

20 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

whether it's under explicit order, tacit orders, due to bad training, or just a willingness of the Israeli government to look the other way, there's been way too many incidents in Gaza to not call this a systemic issue.

if it was bad training the IDF would have demonstrated a good faith effort to deal with it.

I think it's tacit orders and a look the other way mentality. I'm sure there are plenty in the IDF who see things happening they know shouldn't, but there's a firm wink and nod from Bibi on down to not rase a stink about it. and those that would even start to do so are being dealt with.

given the timeline I don't see how it could continue as it has under any other scenario.

I think the biggest problem is that because we and other western countries have been funneling them arms for so long, we see them as a western fighting force. The fact that they are flying, driving, and shooting western equipment doesn't make them one. At their core, they're a middle-eastern army. The best one, but still one nonetheless.

One particular area that they aren't is in armor. They originally went about it the way their other arms are, and they found out the hard way that a lack of discipline does not fare well when it comes to armor operation and maintenance, so they changed things up, made how they do things more western (NCOs "running" things, normal leadership actions). To counter that with their infantry, the officers are pretty much "just one of the Joes", and fraternize with the enlisted to a very high degree in such a manner that would seem alien to anyone who has been in a Western military.

With regards to "fixing" that problem, the solution is longer and harder. As it stands now, their military is largely conscript and reservist. Training conscripts is a different animal than someone who volunteered. They're there because they have to be, they're not as motivated, and they're scared. Far from ideal. Then you have the reservists who were former trained conscripts, who would rather be sipping tea in Tel Aviv than doing whatever they would be called up to do.

You could try to increase the level of training to the forces as they currently exist, but that's like taking a Tylenol because your cancer is giving you a headache.

The way around it would be to go to an all volunteer force, with leadership that does things much more differently than they have. That leads to other questions. How much would Israel's Arab neighbors want and tolerate their military to be better organized and better trained, thus being a more competent and effective fighting force?

I'll go with a different take on why we are here - lack of US leadership. After 10/7/23, there was no role for diplomacy for some time (call it 3-6 months) as emotions were way too high. But as we come up on the 3 year anniversary of this thing, we are at least 2 years past the point where a US President (Biden or Trump) needed to basically host another Camp David Accords. At the very least, when the last living hostages were returned at the end of 2025, that was a clear time to force discussions (I am sympathetic to Israel wanting the hostages back before sitting down). Now, the complication remains that Israel and the US likely won't sit down with Hamas, but perhaps engaging the Palestinian Authority makes sense. But someone needs to stand up and force Israel and the Palestinians to the negotiating table - calling for Netanyahu's arrest isn't going to actually solve anything.

If you could get the PA to step in and take over, ban Hamas, maybe you could try a framework. I'd invite the Arab neighbors as well and try for some kind of Arab peace keeping force that is tasked with ensuring Israeli sovereignty - IDF leaves Gaza, the Arabs make sure Hamas doesn't attack again.

If I were POTUS, I'd condition further aid on the Israelis agreeing to negotiations.

30 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

Sounds like the next Governor of West Virginia to me.