20 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Very different ingredients though.  2017 roster Howie built by bartering bubblegum and juggling while standing on his head.  It was fantastic and creative, but for such a talented roster, it was really, really light on players he drafted.  FA, trades, etc.

2024 came from absolutely annihilating 3 consecutive drafts.

They won this superbowl in April, not February.

 

Actually 4 drafts.  You're absolutely right though. 

33 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Is the problem with Dotson the trade or the utilization?  Maria Muldauer said it best, 

It ain't the meat it's the motion
That makes your momma wanna rock
It ain't the meat it's the motion
It's the movement it isn't the stalk

It’s probably a little bit of both. Cause they didn’t utilize him as much because they became a run first team. But also, I think there was a reason why the commanders were willing to move off of him. Besides it being a regime change, but commanders reporters put out their coaches were down on him cause he didn’t look good in camp and willing to unload him. Imo if he wasn’t a former first round pick i’m not sure they would’ve gotten the third rounder for him based off what he had shown at the NFL level.

Are we really nitpicking moves from what was by far the best roster in the league?  Of course some didn’t work perfectly but so many did it seems a bit ridiculous to be focusing on the bad ones.

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

The bradberry and slay contracts are also bad

Pickett trade was another wasted asset

Bradbury was very good his first year here. Slay has played to the level of his contract. Pickett was an insurance contract. You may think he was overpaid but we’ve done that with backup QBs. None of these moves were stupid; some worked out better than others.

Howie made a lot of moves and he and Lurie have spoken frequently about being willing to take risks. You don’t get Baum or Saquon or Burks or Becton in a vacuum. All those moves were rational whether they worked or not.

This after the fact wisdom is just wasted air.

3 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

 

He’s just bitter because most eagles fans reaction to him is "Oh yeah, you were on our team once, weren’t you?”

10 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

In fairness, the backup quarterback is never gonna be as valuable as a 3rd WR in the postseason run unless Jalen hurts got hurt for an extended period of time or middle of a playoff game. Like Foles with wentz.  He was basically an insurance policy in case something happened to hurts.  Which is why I was fine with them moving back 22 spots and giving up 2 7ths. Like when you make that trade, you’re hoping you never have to use Kenny Pickett. 

The thing is, we already had a better insurance policy with McKee. 

I’m also a big believer in the butterfly effect. What if Howie signs a better LB than Devin White? Maybe Baun never gets his shot. I’m perfectly happy, ecstatic even, with the totality of the moves and will gladly eat the bad ones 

Cowboys QB is a McNabian choke artist. Its impossible to win with him.

Their O-line is rancid garbage.

Their D Line is Micah and the nobodies

Their secondary is famous but can't play all that well.

They had the 28th best RB but he's a free agent. Behind them they have a family draft pick.

They have CeeDee and a bunch of Dee minuses at WR.

They have a small safety at LB who gets run over 5x a game.

 

They went on an idiotic win streak in the middle of the season to kill their draft slot.

 

They have a good kicker and return guy, so that's something.

Give the Giants a decent draft and 3 or 4 good free agents and the Cowboys are looking at 4th place.

2 minutes ago, pgcd3 said:

I’m also a big believer in the butterfly effect. What if Howie signs a better LB than Devin White? Maybe Baun never gets his shot. I’m perfectly happy, ecstatic even, with the totality of the moves and will gladly eat the bad ones 

I feel that way about picking Wentz over Foles. It was terrible but it led us to here so keep it.

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

The thing is, we already had a better insurance policy with McKee. 

But we didn’t know that at the time. Mckee had never taken a regular season snap. We assumed that he was better than him. And it turned out that we were right. However, I have no problem with them moving back 22 picks and 2 7ths to get a backup they were more comfortable with and believe if he played well could flip and get more capital back. 

Re-watching the Eagles draft video and for whatever reason I’m reminded that Brad Holmes was getting a little too big for his britches. After the draft he boasted how tough he is on scouting corners and how they got their two highest graded corners in the draft (Arnold and Rickshaw). Maybe Arnold cuts down on the penalties and lives up to his pedigree. Rickshaw was hurt quite a bit. Whatever. It was nice to see him humbled and to see us draft two top corners of our own.

46 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Very different ingredients though.  2017 roster Howie built by bartering bubblegum and juggling while standing on his head.  It was fantastic and creative, but for such a talented roster, it was really, really light on players he drafted.  FA, trades, etc.

2024 came from absolutely annihilating 3 consecutive drafts.

They won this superbowl in April, not February.

 

Actually 4 drafts

2021: DeVonta Smith, Landon Dickerson, Milton Williams, Kenneth Gainwell.

2022: Jordan Davis, Cam Jurgens, Nakokbe Dean, Grant Calcaterra.

2023: Jalen Carter, Nolan Smith, Tyler Steen, Moro Ojomo.

2024: Quinyon Mitchell, Cooper DeJean, Jalyx Hunt.

14 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

But we didn’t know that at the time. Mckee had never taken a regular season snap. We assumed that he was better than him. And it turned out that we were right. However, I have no problem with them moving back 22 picks and 2 7ths to get a backup they were more comfortable with and believe if he played well could flip and get more capital back. 

Quite a few of us did. 

52 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

At the time of the trade, I don't think the Eagles were committed to running 57% of the time for the season. I liked how Dotson was unselfish about his usage and did what he was asked to do with a great attitude. 

He manned a key role on the offense all year and we ended up with a Lombardi. As for the trade itself, we did get a 5th in that one while giving up a 3rd and two 7ths. I still believe he'll get the ball  a little more this next season. 

I mean, I hope he does go out next year and has a really good year. I liked him as a prospect coming out of Penn state. I actually liked the trade at the time as i wanted us to upgrade our 3rd wr for two years. Like you said wasn’t utilized as much due to becoming a run heavy team and being 3rd wr. If he is good next yea the might get you a comp pick back in free agency in 2026

43 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Quite a few of us did. 

that was based off his preseason games as a rookie (that’s all you had at the time of that Pickett trade). Those were opinions based off preseason and not regular season proof or info the eagles had. Trust me I rather it have been McKee as the backup because I was also high on him and i didn’t like Pickett. But i also understood the Eagles were not prepared to go into a season with a back up quarterback that had no NFL regular season experience. And all it cost was 22 slots going from 98 to 120 and 2 7th round picks (which they probably viewed UDFA they liked would be available so didn’t need those picks).

 

4 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Quite a few of us did. 

Quite a few had opinions, based on a quantum level of less information than the Eagles had. All our expertise is mercifully buried.

32 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

The thing is, we already had a better insurance policy with McKee. 

Oh, you knew that, did you?

1 hour ago, mattwill said:

Not in a hurry at all; however, he will now be entering the third year of his four year contract with the likelihood he is once again going to be the emergency QB and inactive each week.  That can’t be any fun for him, nor can it be any form of loyalty building when it comes to signing a second contract.  If Hurts weren’t so clearly QB1, the prospects of McKee swing meaningful live snaps would be worth talking about, but Hurts clearly is QB1 and not going anywhere, so McKee is stuck until after the 2026 season, when he will almost surely flee.

So take the value while you can .

Yes, but you're discounting the benefit to the team of having him around for the next two years. Hurts has already proven to be injury prone, though to his credit he hasn't been knocked out for the year with any of them. But what if he does suffer a serious injury in the next two years? What then? I may be silly but I actually think that McKee has the potential to keep the team afloat if he's forced to play for an extended period of time. There are a LOT of teams that would fall apart if their starting quarterback gets knocked out. We generally don't. And that's something that Howie consciously works to achieve. Having good backups. 

I expect Pickett to be kept next year too. That's why they traded for him in the first place...because he was still under contract for a couple of years at a decent rate for a backup quarterback. But the year after that, McKee should ascend to that role. 

If we lose McKee after four years, well, that's that. But I'm not discarding an asset that we worked for (we scouted him and drafted him) and hit on. 

Guys, we had plenty of tape of Pickett to make a reasonable assumption that McKee was as good or better than him. Just like we did with Devin White. I don't get why we have to pretend those of us who were critical of the trade at the time were somehow in the dark about what we were getting with those types of players. And to be clear, it's 100% nitpicking, but it's still okay to admit the Pickett trade was a complete whiff. It happens.

1 hour ago, pisceschica said:

Aww he got prank called on draft day 

 

Awesome video. He couldn’t have imagined the outcome this year. He’s a special kid and I am glad he is an Eagle!

1 hour ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

It’s probably a little bit of both. Cause they didn’t utilize him as much because they became a run first team. But also, I think there was a reason why the commanders were willing to move off of him. Besides it being a regime change, but commanders reporters put out their coaches were down on him cause he didn’t look good in camp and willing to unload him. Imo if he wasn’t a former first round pick i’m not sure they would’ve gotten the third rounder for him based off what he had shown at the NFL level.

Why Washington was willing to trade him is irrelevant and at best speculation.  Howie saw an asset and added it to the team’s arsenal. 

The Offense becoming run first wasn’t a Howie decision.  Further, it was ex post facto to the actual trade. @LeanMeanGM and @Iggles_Phan made a long and vociferous argument that the Pickett trade should not be evaluated using the ex post facto trade with the Dolphins.  If that is the case there, then why should the evaluation of the Dotson trade include the export facto coaches’ actions?

Your final point may well be right, but why is that point meaningful in the analysis of the trade?

IMO the Dotson performance in the Playoffs was clear and present evidence that Dotson was a legitimate threat in every snap he was on the field for, and the opposing DCs had to account for him as such.

JMO

2 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

They’re 3 separate trades. 

Pickett and pick 120 for 98th pick and 2 7ths isn’t the worst trade in the world. No offense that isn’t an awful trade. You essentially moved back 22 spots and gave up 2 7th rounders (not making this team) to get a backup Qb for 2 years that they liked in scouting prior. I don’t like Pickett but that is far from a bad trade. I’m fine with that trade and I’m not a Pickett fan

I think everyone was thrilled when we dealt 120 for a 2025 3rd from Miami. Imo that’s a win for us at that point. essentially would’ve gotten a 2025 3rd (Miami) and Kenny Pickett for trading 98 (late 3rd as Miami’s pick had a chance to be better in 2025) and 2 7th. I think most would’ve signed off for something like that. a decent back up quarterback and a future third round pick for 98 and 2 7th.

The Dotson trade is the worst of the 3 trades. because he wasnt utilized all that well and frankly probably wasn’t worth a 3rd. Imo the two trades prior to Dotson were fine. it’s really the Dotson trade that is not good as that 3rd is more valuable then Dotson 

 

The part of the Dotson that was bad was that it was higher of the 3rds. As you said, 3rd is already good value for Dotson but giving up the upside on where the pick lands compounded it. Ended up being #79 vs #96

44 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Why Washington was willing to trade him is irrelevant and at best speculation.  Howie saw an asset and added it to the team’s arsenal. 

The Offense becoming run first wasn’t a Howie decision.  Further, it was ex post facto to the actual trade. @LeanMeanGM and @Iggles_Phan made a long and vociferous argument that the Pickett trade should not be evaluated using the ex post facto trade with the Dolphins.  If that is the case there, then why should the evaluation of the Dotson trade include the export facto coaches’ actions?

Your final point may well be right, but why is that point meaningful in the analysis of the trade?

IMO the Dotson performance in the Playoffs was clear and present evidence that Dotson was a legitimate threat in every snap he was on the field for, and the opposing DCs had to account for him as such.

JMO

It isnt irrelevant? he wouldn’t be on the eagles currently without Washington’s assessment of him after watching him first hand and thinking a 3rd rounder was more valuable to their team. I’d want as much info as possible before giving a 3rd round pick. Especially cause Washington who needed WRs with a rookie Qb and he’s on a rookie contract is giving him up. Imo as much info as possible and knowing why that info was leaked is not irrelevant. I’m guessing howie probably discussed that before making the trade. If i were Howie I’d want to know why that info was leaked that he was struggling in camp and was his struggles because of new regime or potentially a bigger issue

If you want to have that discussion with them go ahead. Don’t include me as i didn’t read nor pay attention to your previous arguments to hear all their points. 

It is an opinion by me that you probably gave up more for him due to that.

 

4 hours ago, TEW said:

No one is trading a high pick for McKee. Why would they? He’s proven nothing, has 2 years expired on his rookie deal, and doesn’t have unique athletic potential.

If they want to go with a young guy they can draft their own or get any of the former high picks that are floating around and try to do a reclamation project while they find a long term starter. They can use their own pick on Dart or Milroe or whatever.

Hear you, but Mckee could be more polished then these guys and more ready from Day 1 for a new team. Also, they have pro game film to look at with McKee from preseason and regular season games. And he has been nothing but impressive in all of his showings. If Moore likes him and is comfortable with his fit and skillset, I can see higher than a 4th round pick in return. Pickett, on the other hand, may only be worth a high 3rd/low 4th. I do not put both of them in the same boat like some peeps are doing in here. McKee has the higher ceiling at this point and is younger. Again, I'm not looking to trade McKee. I like him.

1 hour ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

Yes, but you're discounting the benefit to the team of having him around for the next two years. Hurts has already proven to be injury prone, though to his credit he hasn't been knocked out for the year with any of them. But what if he does suffer a serious injury in the next two years? What then? I may be silly but I actually think that McKee has the potential to keep the team afloat if he's forced to play for an extended period of time. There are a LOT of teams that would fall apart if their starting quarterback gets knocked out. We generally don't. And that's something that Howie consciously works to achieve. Having good backups. 

I expect Pickett to be kept next year too. That's why they traded for him in the first place...because he was still under contract for a couple of years at a decent rate for a backup quarterback. But the year after that, McKee should ascend to that role. 

If we lose McKee after four years, well, that's that. But I'm not discarding an asset that we worked for (we scouted him and drafted him) and hit on. 

I understand and respect your opinion as expressed above. The question is how to maximize the ROI of your assets.  

If McKee sits on the roster as QB#3 for the next two seasons, what is the Return On Investment that the Eagles will have realized from the asset that is McKee?  Essentially no return at all.  His value as a UFA after four years of never rising above QB#3 will probably not garner a "qualifying offer” in the comp pick formula.  Further the Eagles will go into the 2027 season with only QB#1 under contract.

There are several possible solutions to this QB logjam and use the QB#3 position on a newly acquired developmental player on a rookie contract. One possibility is to trade Pickett, especially if you believe (as I firmly do) that McKee has more value to the team.  But, if no willing trade partner for Pickett steps up you have three options (1) cut Pickett, (2) trade McKee, or (3) continue on with the log jam.  Which of those options do you choose? Which of those options maximizes ROI?