I never said this before and it is long over due. Thank you to all of you on this board and especially in this blog. Never a shortage of opinions and that is what makes it great. I love the conversation and debate.

@ Iggles_Phan - I think we are essentially in agreement - I started on this conversation path in response to BigEFly defending the "practice squad" players as if he needed to. My point is that whatever you think of the practice squad guys currently in the lineup - they were not suppose to be currently in the line up. And so there is going to be a learning curve - for them and for Wentz. 

I think a little more of Ward (maybe a lot more) than you but we are essentially in agreement. As I posted before - it's very possible that Alshon is cooked - personally I just think he needed speed opposite of him - he was never a #1 draw the double team guy. He made his name with Brandon Marshall on the other side. Alshon was/is good at beating zone and single converage but you can take him away with a double. Fulgham has the potential to be all around better but I don't think he is there yet. Of course if the rumors about Alshon are true he's not a guy I want in my locker room regardless. 

Agreed that Jackson and Reagor are different players but my point there is that even if the Eagles knew about Fulgham to start the season he is still only 4th on the depth chart but probably 6th considering they will give JJaw every opportunity to develop into something useful. 

With regard to Wentz - I think some of his bone head decisions stem from a feeling that he has to do everything himself - he has to make every play because there will be limited opportunities. Give him a decent offensive line that's together for more than 1 game, a reliable / consistent running game and a little time with an NFL caliber receiving corps and I think you will see the bone head decisions disappear.

5 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

You’re wrong. I don’t even want a dedicated slot receiver. I want three good receivers who rotate into the slot based on the matchup. If DJax, Reagor and Alshon somehow we’re all healthy at one time, we probably would have seen that. 

One of the twitter reporters had a clip of Fulgham and Jeffery last week in practice. Jeffery looked Casey Matthews slow.  Looked like Richard Rodgers would beat him by five yards in a fifty yard race.  I would be real curious if he can jump any more.  Reagor would have been in HS for that lineup to have happened. 

Over/under on the Clemson game is 62.

Clemson scored to go to 40-21 and went for 2. Very suspicious. 

1 minute ago, Ace Nova said:

I think ideally that's what the team would like to do but injuries happen so until you have the luxury of being able to do that, Ward is a solid fit. 

Even when they have the ability to do that, I still think Ward gets a solid amount of snaps out of the slot because he's A-B-C consistent and you need that type of consistency in order to sustain drives.  

I would think if him as a WR-3A type, depending on who they are facing, defensive scheming, etc etc.  The rotational theory would also come into play depending on match ups etc etc   

The goal posts are moving so much in this discussion that I’m getting spun around like Nate Gerry. 

Put simply:

Yes, Ward deserves to be the slot now. I’m not disputing that. I’m saying he isn’t good enough to be a WR3 if we have aspirations of being a really good offense. 

He has significant limitations. His touchdowns are predominantly scheme over talent. His plays downfield have been scheme/busted coverage over his skill. He isn’t fast. Whatever quickness he has leads to minimal separation vertically and horizontally. He doesn’t do anything after the catch beyond the bare minimum, out of context stats be damned.

That all said...

He doesn’t make mistakes. He is where he is supposed to be and he doesn’t drop passes. There’s value in that. I vehemently disagree with many posters on just how valuable that is. I think people need to raise their expectations for a WR3. 

Greg Ward catches 4 yard passes underneath zone coverage; his catch % *should* be astronomically high.  Those are plays that should NOT be a high volume staple in a 2020 NFL offense.  I understand that is the best we can do right now.  But this is not something that is admirable, effective, or worth trying to sustain.

I don't understand the delusion that this is good.  We are a bottom 3 passing offense in the NFL for a reason.  This is part of it.  

Just now, ManuManu said:

 

Yes, Ward deserves to be the slot now. I’m not disputing that. I’m saying he isn’t good enough to be a WR3 if we have aspirations of being a really good offense. 

Perhaps the aspirations of being a really good offense have slipped away.

26 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

It shows it in the top right. But after a few seconds an add pops up and covers it. One of those things they need to fix.

 

Thank you for the reply on Goodwin; I thought it was a bit strange he was showing as a $4.4M cap hit.

In general terms, do the Eagles get more cap relief from trading guys in the offseason, or just releasing them?  Naturally it’s better for roster building if the Eagles could get draft picks for guys like Ertz — just wondering if cap rules are set to discourage or encourage this.

5 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Greg Ward catches 4 yard passes underneath zone coverage; his catch % *should* be astronomically high.  Those are plays that should NOT be a high volume staple in a 2020 NFL offense.  I understand that is the best we can do right now.  But this is not something that is admirable, effective, or worth trying to sustain.

I don't understand the delusion that this is good.  We are a bottom 3 passing offense in the NFL for a reason.  This is part of it.  

Perhaps the aspirations of being a really good offense have slipped away.

Yup. I swear some folks have no ability to discern what these stats mean. Dedicated slots will always have high catch percentages, particularly when his average depth of target is six yards. I don’t remember a single run after catch or carry by Ward that was the least bit impressive. Hell, I don’t remember him even making a guy miss. How in the world does that happen if he’s even half as quick, half as fast or half as good of a route runner as folks in here think he is?

 

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

Yup. I swear some folks have no ability to discern what these stats mean. Dedicated slots will always have high catch percentage, particularly when his average depth of target is six yards. I don’t remember a single run after catch or carry by Ward that was the least bit impressive. Hell, I don’t remember him even making a guy miss. How in the world does that happen if he’s even half as quick, half as fast or half as good of a route runner as folks in here think he is?

It's because we are in horrible WR withdrawal.  This position, for decades, and even worse for the last 4 years, has been plagued with injuries, inconsistency, and humiliating ineptitude.  

Amidst that, Ward never gets hurt.  He never has highlight reel drops.  And he knows where to line up and what route to run.  He also doesn't get open, contrary to what many people say.  He sits underneath the coverage and catches the ball when it comes his way.

Better than our other options?  Sure.  But people seem to get confused and think this is what we should want out of our playbook, WRs, and passing offense.  

Long view...the presence of Ward in the offense is an acknowledgement that we can't find anyone better.  And short-view, a 5 yard pass to Ward short of the sticks is an acknowledgement that Wentz couldn't find anyone better.

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

Yup. I swear some folks have no ability to discern what these stats mean. Dedicated slots will always have high catch percentage, particularly when his average depth of target is six yards. I don’t remember a single run after catch or carry by Ward that was the least bit impressive. Hell, I don’t remember him even making a guy miss. How in the world does that happen if he’s even half as quick, half as fast or half as good of a route runner as folks in here think he is?

I would argue an optimal offense is the ability to be prolific in all three zones — short, intermediate, and deep.  Spacing isn’t about having a collection of 100M sprinters, it’s about having a Greg Ward who is prolific on short routes, a Travis Fulgham who is prolific in the intermediate routes, a John Hightower who can stretch the defense vertically, and a Jalen Reagor who can hopefully turn a short throw into an explosive play.

It would be fantastic to have a WR group well versed in all of the above — but not realistic 

18 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

I never said this before and it is long over due. Thank you to all of you on this board and especially in this blog. Never a shortage of opinions and that is what makes it great. I love the conversation and debate.

@ Iggles_Phan - I think we are essentially in agreement - I started on this conversation path in response to BigEFly defending the "practice squad" players as if he needed to. My point is that whatever you think of the practice squad guys currently in the lineup - they were not suppose to be currently in the line up. And so there is going to be a learning curve - for them and for Wentz. 

I think a little more of Ward (maybe a lot more) than you but we are essentially in agreement. As I posted before - it's very possible that Alshon is cooked - personally I just think he needed speed opposite of him - he was never a #1 draw the double team guy. He made his name with Brandon Marshall on the other side. Alshon was/is good at beating zone and single converage but you can take him away with a double. Fulgham has the potential to be all around better but I don't think he is there yet. Of course if the rumors about Alshon are true he's not a guy I want in my locker room regardless. 

Agreed that Jackson and Reagor are different players but my point there is that even if the Eagles knew about Fulgham to start the season he is still only 4th on the depth chart but probably 6th considering they will give JJaw every opportunity to develop into something useful. 

With regard to Wentz - I think some of his bone head decisions stem from a feeling that he has to do everything himself - he has to make every play because there will be limited opportunities. Give him a decent offensive line that's together for more than 1 game, a reliable / consistent running game and a little time with an NFL caliber receiving corps and I think you will see the bone head decisions disappear.

Fulgham is better than Alshon now even if healthy, he's not better than Alshon at his best.   And we are in agreement, I haven't argued against your point.  I took a slightly different angle, but not in opposition.

 

I don't disagree on Wentz feeling the need to make plays on his own, but that doesn't excuse that throw.  That throw is indefensible.  Even when playing hero ball, one has to know what line can never be crossed.  That was one of them.  He was fortunate in that throw that he threw it to Fulgham who would fight to break up an INT at worst, but it was a far less than 50/50 ball.  That was a 1/49/50 ball.   1% chance of completion, 49% chance of incompletion, 50% chance of INT, because if the ball was bounced up in the air... there were a lot of white jerseys around it to catch the deflection.  Fortunately, we got the 49%.. and its a learning moment for Wentz without the downside.

1 minute ago, eagle45 said:

And short-view, a 5 yard pass to Ward short of the sticks is an acknowledgement that Wentz couldn't find anyone better.

I would bet you a substantial amount of money that Ward has more catches for first downs/touchdowns in his career than he does catches on third down that are short of a first down.

1 minute ago, Alphagrand said:

I would argue an optimal offense is the ability to be prolific in all three zones — short, intermediate, and deep.  Spacing isn’t about having a collection of 100M sprinters, it’s about having a Greg Ward who is prolific on short routes, a Travis Fulgham who is prolific in the intermediate routes, a John Hightower who can stretch the defense vertically, and a Jalen Reagor who can hopefully turn a short throw into an explosive play.

It would be fantastic to have a WR group well versed in all of the above — but not realistic 

I wouldn’t describe Ward as prolific in the short area either. 

1 minute ago, jsb235 said:

I would bet you a substantial amount of money that Ward has more catches for first downs/touchdowns in his career than he does catches on third down that are short of a first down.

I believe you’d be right. 

1 minute ago, jsb235 said:

I would bet you a substantial amount of money that Ward has more catches for first downs/touchdowns in his career than he does catches on third down that are short of a first down.

Is that evidence that he's a good WR who should be oft-used?

19 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

He doesn’t make mistakes. He is where he is supposed to be and he doesn’t drop passes. There’s value in that. I vehemently disagree with many posters on just how valuable that is. I think people need to raise their expectations for a WR3. 

In this offense, in this moment... there's a lot of value in being where he's supposed to be and not dropping the ball.  Wentz needs reliability in terms of players being in the right spot at the right time.  And catching the ball when it comes their way.   But... in the long run... Ward is a guy that they should be looking to upgrade, not settle for.  But, in the current situation, he's an upgrade over what Agholor was last year, an upgrade over what many others were last year as well.  But, that's a low bar.  

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

In this offense, in this moment... there's a lot of value in being where he's supposed to be and not dropping the ball.  Wentz needs reliability in terms of players being in the right spot at the right time.  And catching the ball when it comes their way.   But... in the long wrong... Ward is a guy that they should be looking to upgrade, not settle for.  But, in the current situation, he's an upgrade over what Agholor was last year, an upgrade over what many others were last year as well.  But, that's a low bar.  

Agreed. 

BTW... that's not to knock on Ward.  But, it is also not to make him into something that he's not.  

5 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I wouldn’t describe Ward as prolific in the short area either.

Right now his numbers prorate to 66 catches for 533 yards over a full season.  Typically you’d see those numbers out of a RB so, yes, you’re not wrong in that assertion 

For those with the time...

I'd be curious to see if a top 5 offense from the last 5 years (25 data points) has had a top 3 WR average less than 10 yards per catch.  

4 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Is that evidence that he's a good WR who should be oft-used?

I think it is evidence that you are using bad arguments to criticize a player who is not nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

Is he a first-round talent? No.

Is he a dependable receiver who comes up with clutch plays for this team every week? Yes.

I understand you want to upgrade. But at what price? I can think of poor play from a dozen players right now who are hurting the team more than Greg Ward.

1 minute ago, jsb235 said:

I think it is evidence that you are using bad arguments to criticize a player who is not nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

Is he a first-round talent? No.

Is he a dependable receiver who comes up with clutch plays for this team every week? Yes.

I understand you want to upgrade. But at what price? I can think of poor play from a dozen players right now who are hurting the team more than Greg Ward.

Ward isn't horrible.  He just has a bad case of Jordan Matthews syndrome.  He's the best we have and, therefore, fans and coaches alike have a higher opinion of him, use him more, and will expect more of him in the future than they should...to the detriment of the team.

11 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Right now his numbers prorate to 66 catches for 533 yards over a full season.  Typically you’d see those numbers out of a RB so, yes, you’re not wrong in that assertion 

His average yards per target this year is 5.8, 6.1 for his career. That’s pathetic for a WR. 

Jaylen Waddle hurt in the Bama game. Looked like a high ankle sprain or maybe a fracture.

Just now, schuy7 said:

Jaylen Waddle hurt in the Bama game. Looked like a high ankle sprain or maybe a fracture.

We still won't be drafting high enough for him, unfortunately.  

1 minute ago, schuy7 said:

Jaylen Waddle hurt in the Bama game. Looked like a high ankle sprain or maybe a fracture.

Tennessee safety gonna get ejected now