50 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

The frustrating part of this conversation is that people seem to resort to things like the bolded. The difference between Ward’s level of play and a pro bowler is cavernous. 

2017 Agholor would be a great slot receiver. He had quickness for YAC and speed to beat teams vertically. Ward has neither. His play is not close to 2017 Agholor, who wasn’t a pro bowler or All-Pro. 

You're right....you changed my mind.  Ward sucks!!! 

I'm not joking either.  Agholor blows and Ward isnt close to him.

Once the Ward issue is decided, the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin needs resolution.

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

I don't really recall our OL being that much better then either. I just checked the year before that and the vaunted Golden Tate didn't fare much better. What's an average ypc for a slot WR? 10ypc or so? I'm honestly curious.

Whoa. You’re telling me last year’s OL wasn’t much better than this year’s? You drinking the top shelf stuff tonight?

 

Ward should be respected for his consistent play and for being the best, most reliable WR we have 2 years running.  (And Howie should be lambasted for that, but I digress).  

He doesn't fit well in the same WR corps as Fulgham, if you think he's a big part of the future.  Reagor/Fulgham/Ward will not be confused with the Chiefs WR corps.  If you want to run with the Avant comparison, remember that Avant was at his best when Desean/Maclin were dragging coverage downfield, providing great opportunities for a slow, underneath possession slot weapon.  Fulgham is no burner and Reagor has a ton to prove.  So if you want to beat the Ward drum, realize what that means you must be saying about our starting X and Z guys.

If we commit to Reagor and Hightower outside, then I want Fulgham complementing them, not Ward.

So don't forget about the fit here.  

Marquez Stevenson at Z, Reagor at X and Fulgham in the slot.  Stevenson is probably a mid rounder. 

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

I don't really recall our OL being that much better then either. I just checked the year before that and the vaunted Golden Tate didn't fare much better. What's an average ypc for a slot WR? 10ypc or so? I'm honestly curious.

I’d say 10-11 for a possession slot. Agholor was 12.4 in 2017. 

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

And I guarantee Fulgham’s YPC in the slot is much higher than Ward’s. 

Sample size is an issue there too though. He's not primarily used in that role. As I said, if you think he's a WR4 on a better team, I wouldn't necessarily disagree. If you think he's merely a mediocre WR3 on our team, I don't know that I feel the same boot I'm not gonna argue against it that strongly. But if you think that we should toss $6M at someone in the offseason to play that role here, then I'll be rolling my eyes.

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

Whoa. You’re telling me last year’s OL wasn’t much better than this year’s? You drinking the top shelf stuff tonight?

I said that much better. As in, we still had injuries and we were still sub par in pass pro compared to prior years. 

55 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Missing Sanders for multiple games and relying on Scott and Clement as the other options explains it too.  Huntley looked like a guy I'd like to see get a few more chances, but he's got a lot to learn about the passing game.

Yeah I like huntley. He looked good with the few runs he got. He was great in the passing game in college, not sure how much he blocked but lots of receptions.

3 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Once the Ward issue is decided, the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin needs resolution.

Assuming angels exist lacking corporeal bodies, I would suggest an infinite number could dance on the head of a pin. 

1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Sample size is an issue there too though. He's not primarily used in that role. As I said, if you think he's a WR4 on a better team, I wouldn't necessarily disagree. If you think he's merely a mediocre WR3 on our team, I don't know that I feel the same boot I'm not gonna argue against it that strongly. But if you think that we should toss $6M at someone in the offseason to play that role here, then I'll be rolling my eyes.

I’m saying he’s a WR4 on a good offense. Amendola is better than him, but I’m not paying $6M to him for that. 

As I said, I don’t even want a slot-only type. I want three WRs who can move into the slot based on matchup. 

Its a shame DJax got hurt because he, Reagor and Fulgham would have been great for that. Ward could have still sprinkled in to limit DJax’s snaps. 

Alas...

You guys bashed me for saying 12 personnel with a big, slow possession WR (Jeffery transitioning to JJAW) and a bargain basement over-the-hill Z would be a miserable failure.  It was.

I'll warn you again...in 2020, there's no room in a WR corps for a Fulgham and a Ward, unless one is a never-used backup.  Pick one.  I pick Fulgham.  Even the Ward supporters are saying that his comp, Avant, had Maclin and Jackson boosting his stats.  If you want Ward in the slot, you need outside WRs that WE DON'T HAVE.

Reagor ain't a 22 year old Desean.  And I'm not sure Hightower is anybody at all just yet.  Fulgham, while not the burner I want, can make plays outside or inside.  He gives you the versatility to be a #2 WR next year with inside/out flexibility to allow Hightower to be a field-stretching #3 WR lining up at Z.  Fulgham at X with Ward in the slot will suffocate the offense.

We have the Nate Illaoa award for the pre-season guys people ridiculously over-rate.

Maybe we need the Greg a-Ward for the regular season player who wouldnt make most teams and eagles fans are crazy about.

53 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Or... someone in his first or second year with upside.   As for 'getting the job done'... a little more than 6 ypc would be nice from our #3.

He gets the job done for now as far as getting open and making the catch.  Going back to last year we didnt even have guys that could do that.  

Again, he's nothing special but until they have someone better, not sure what to tell you.  Maybe when Quez Watkins can see the field he will be better and an upgrade.  

 

1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:

I said that much better. As in, we still had injuries and we were still sub par in pass pro compared to prior years. 

I would disagree. But tbh, Ward’s YPC was inflated last year because of a blown coverage on Dallas that resulted in a 38 yard gain. Take it out and he’s at 8 YPC, same as this year. It’s who he is. 

8 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I’d say 10-11 for a possession slot. Agholor was 12.4 in 2017. 

You keep singling out 2017 Agholor, and ignoring other seasons from him. Our pass pro that year was top3, and our offense as a whole was banging on all cylinders at an elite level. Sure seems like some cherry picking there.

6 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

You guys bashed me for saying 12 personnel with a big, slow possession WR (Jeffery transitioning to JJAW) and a bargain basement over-the-hill Z would be a miserable failure.  It was.

I'll warn you again...in 2020, there's no room in a WR corps for a Fulgham and a Ward, unless one is a never-used backup.  Pick one.  I pick Fulgham.  Even the Ward supporters are saying that his comp, Avant, had Maclin and Jackson boosting his stats.  If you want Ward in the slot, you need outside WRs that WE DON'T HAVE.

Reagor ain't a 22 year old Desean.  And I'm not sure Hightower is anybody at all just yet.  Fulgham, while not the burner I want, can make plays outside or inside.  He gives you the versatility to be a #2 WR next year with inside/out flexibility to allow Hightower to be a field-stretching #3 WR lining up at Z.  Fulgham at X with Ward in the slot will suffocate the offense.

Let’s give Fulgham a little more time. You don’t have to be fast to win downfield. He’s got three downfield chunk plays already — beating a corner downfield vs SF, bodying a nickel down the seam against Pittsburgh and a perfectly called out and up against NYG. 

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I would disagree. But tbh, Ward’s YPC was inflated last year because of a blow coverage on Dallas that resulted in a 38 yard gain. Take it out and he’s at 8 YPC, same as this year. It’s who he is. 

You really think we were better in pass pro last year compared to 2017 or 2018? 

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

You keep singling out 2017 Agholor, and ignoring other seasons from him. Our pass pro that year was top3, and our offense as a whole was banging on all cylinders at an elite level. Sure seems like some cherry picking there.

Agholor also didn’t drop or misplay deep balls that year like he did in 2019. That’s why boxscore scouting him and Ward is useless. 

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

You really think we were better in pass pro last year compared to 2017 or 2018?

No, but compared to this year, yes. 

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

Let’s give Fulgham a little more time. You don’t have to be fast to win downfield. He’s got three downfield chunk plays already — beating a corner downfield vs SF, bodying a nickel down the seam and a perfectly called out and up against NYG. 

And that's why a WR corps of Reagor (X/Z/slot), Fulgham (X/slot), Hightower Z may grow into something nice.  Fulgham, despite still having much to prove, has shown the ability to get downfield and is not a strictly underneath route or slot WR.

But a defined WR corps with Reagor Z, Fulgham X, and Ward in the slot is not going to be particularly good.  We'll see the same spacing problems we are used to.

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

Agholor also didn’t drop or misplay deep balls that year like he did in 2019. That’s why boxscore scouting him and Ward is useless. 

No, but compared to this year, yes. 

Box score scouting is looking at the stat book in a vacuum and without any regard to context. Sound familiar?

11 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

 

Ward should be respected for his consistent play and for being the best, most reliable WR we have 2 years running.  (And Howie should be lambasted for that, but I digress).  

He doesn't fit well in the same WR corps as Fulgham, if you think he's a big part of the future.  Reagor/Fulgham/Ward will not be confused with the Chiefs WR corps.  If you want to run with the Avant comparison, remember that Avant was at his best when Desean/Maclin were dragging coverage downfield, providing great opportunities for a slow, underneath possession slot weapon.  Fulgham is no burner and Reagor has a ton to prove.  So if you want to beat the Ward drum, realize what that means you must be saying about our starting X and Z guys.

If we commit to Reagor and Hightower outside, then I want Fulgham complementing them, not Ward.

So don't forget about the fit here.  

What X and Z guys?  What TEs.  I addressed earlier when I said Ward in the normal course of the team would be the fourth option.  

Why would we commit to a 45% catch rate WR?  That is Hightower at this point.  But that is also why I would like to see Hightower a bit more in the slot and on short crossing routes.  I think his catch rate would go up and I think his burst and speed is better than Ward’s.  Hopefully when Reagor is back from IR.  

4 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

What X and Z guys?  What TEs.  I addressed earlier when I said Ward in the normal course of the team would be the fourth option.  

Why would we commit to a 45% catch rate WR?  That is Hightower at this point.  But that is also why I would like to see Hightower a bit more in the slot and on short crossing routes.  I think his catch rate would go up and I think his burst and speed is better than Ward’s.  Hopefully when Reagor is back from IR.  

I don't disagree with any of that, although I'm not sure how well Hightower would fit in the slot.

If we are going to check out a rookie in the slot, I'd prefer Watkins get some looks there.  He's not quite as rail thin and is a bit less of a long strider for short distance separation.

I've been curious to see Watkins for a while...I'm not some huge fan, just curious...but it's apparent the Eagles are very hesitant to use him.  Based on how unprepared Hightower has been for the spotlight, I'm guessing Watkins is way off.

50 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Box score scouting is looking at the stat book in a vacuum and without any regard to context. Sound familiar?

This is BS. I’m using stats to support my opinion, which is based on watching him play. You’re using stats and only stats to use for your opinion, while manufacturing a fake narrative that the OL is why his YPC is low.

We saw Agholor run deep routes and drop those passes last year, which obviously would suppress his YPC. Ward’s YPC is low and if anything is inflated by two catches — a blown coverage vs Dallas and a perfectly called play against Cincinnati.

8 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

This is BS. I’m using stats to support my opinion, which is based on watching him play. You’re using stats and only stats to use your opinion, while manufacturing a fake narrative that the OL is why his YPC is low.

We saw Agholor run deep routes and drop those passes last year, which obviously would suppress his YPC. Ward’s YPC is low and if anything is inflated by two catches — a blown coverage bs Dallas and a perfectly called play against Cincinnati.

No. I don't care about his stats, I only brought them up to correct the misattribution of 6ypc. He's been a reliable WR on a lackluster offense for two years straight now. He can only run the routes he's assigned in the role he plays. With the current state of our OL, I'm not sure what you can honestly expect there. Wentz hasn't exactly been on fire either. When Ward has been in a position to make catches, he's been solid and reliable. After the catch, he's unspectacular, but I again don't think that was ever in dispute. 

If you truly and honestly think the state of the OL doesn't have a negative impact on the depth of routes our WRs are running, then I don't know what else to tell ya bud. We'll just have to agree to disagree.