1 minute ago, Alphagrand said:

I remember arguing this on the old board with someone who insisted Jefferson could only play slot.  The data was already there from 2018 that he was productive on the outside, and Marshall was a 5-star recruit they wanted to get on the field.

The problem here is... To play outside Jefferson would likely have needed good NFL coaching. That's something he wouldn't have gotten in Philly based on our WR coaching the last few years. 

1 minute ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

The problem here is... To play outside Jefferson would likely have needed good NFL coaching. That's something he wouldn't have gotten in Philly based on our WR coaching the last few years. 

No more than anyone else.  I went into the 2020 draft as saying I’d have been fine with any one of 6 or 7 WR prospects — Jeudy, Lamb and Ruggs were unlikely to be on the board and I wouldn’t have traded up.  The Eagles were fine picking any of Reagor, Jefferson, Higgins, or Shenault IMO.  
 

Some folks here are practicing revisionist history again saying Jefferson was the obvious pick over Reagor — he wasn’t.  His stock climbed at the combine while Reagor’s dipped slightly, but they were in the same range — late first round.  Reagor was the better scheme fit.  Aiyuk was a 2nd round prospect who very few felt would be a decent pick at #21

1 minute ago, Alphagrand said:

Some folks here are practicing revisionist history again saying Jefferson was the obvious pick over Reagor — he wasn’t.  His stock climbed at the combine while Reagor’s dipped slightly, but they were in the same range — late first round.  Reagor was the better scheme fit.  Aiyuk was a 2nd round prospect who very few felt would be a decent pick at #21

Completely agree. I was on the Reagor train but I absolutely saw the arguments and the case for Jefferson and Aiyuk. There were others too that could have been good picks. 

1 minute ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Completely agree. I was on the Reagor train but I absolutely saw the arguments and the case for Jefferson and Aiyuk. There were others too that could have been good picks. 

There’s a common theme this season when it comes to Wentz, Reagor, and Hurts.  None are being used correctly by the coaching staff and none are performing as was expected going into the season.  I didn’t expect a lot from Hurts, but the point is Doug sold Eagles fans a bill of goods based on the notion that he had a package of plays designed for him to be a weapon.  Even I could draw up better plays for Hurts than what we’ve seen so far.

Just now, Alphagrand said:

There’s a common theme this season when it comes to Wentz, Reagor, and Hurts.  None are being used correctly by the coaching staff and none are performing as was expected going into the season.  I didn’t expect a lot from Hurts, but the point is Doug sold Eagles fans a bill of goods based on the notion that he had a package of plays designed for him to be a weapon.  Even I could draw up better plays for Hurts than what we’ve seen so far.

I agree that Reagor and Hurts are being used incorrectly. Reagor is being used on shorter routes without sending him to stretch the field. Hurts, I mean I don't even know know the coaches are trying to do there. But Wentz? At this point these are just more excuses for Wentz. 

1 minute ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I agree that Reagor and Hurts are being used incorrectly. Reagor is being used on shorter routes without sending him to stretch the field. Hurts, I mean I don't even know know the coaches are trying to do there. But Wentz? At this point these are just more excuses for Wentz. 

Wentz is not playing well.  There is a track record of high level play, though.  I don’t think he’s forgotten how to play QB — I think he’s being coached poorly.

2 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

My one major turnoff from the other big 4 is how little first round picks actually mean 

NBA sucks.

Draft is horrible. No parity at all.  Stars leave to build super teams and the place they left suffers for years because again, the draft sucks. 

43 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

No more than anyone else.  I went into the 2020 draft as saying I’d have been fine with any one of 6 or 7 WR prospects — Jeudy, Lamb and Ruggs were unlikely to be on the board and I wouldn’t have traded up.  The Eagles were fine picking any of Reagor, Jefferson, Higgins, or Shenault IMO.  
 

Some folks here are practicing revisionist history again saying Jefferson was the obvious pick over Reagor — he wasn’t.  His stock climbed at the combine while Reagor’s dipped slightly, but they were in the same range — late first round.  Reagor was the better scheme fit.  Aiyuk was a 2nd round prospect who very few felt would be a decent pick at #21

This. I was fine if they took Justin Jefferson if they believed he was good enough to play the outside wide receiver position at the nfl level. If they didn’t see him as an outside wide receiver in their offense then I thought they shouldn’t take him. To me I didn’t think they should’ve taken a wide receiver at 21 and traded back to get extra picks which this team desperately could’ve used. I don’t know who would’ve traded up and there was the possibility if you truly too far back you would’ve went into the next tier of wide receivers. However if they were i was fine with reagor or jefferson but had the feeling they’d go reagor over jefferson due to scheme fit and badly wanting a over the top speed threat. 

But you are spot on with the revisionist history. There was a ton of people on the old board that wanted nothing to do with Brandon aiyuk in the first round. I think there may have been one or two people that wanted to take him at 21. People were thrilled when we discussed taking him at 53 because there was the belief he could fall to 53 or move up a couple picks to grab him. Heading into the draft he wasn’t a lock to be a first round pick. He was projected late 1st to 2nd  

 

30 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Wentz is not playing well.  There is a track record of high level play, though.  I don’t think he’s forgotten how to play QB — I think he’s being coached poorly.

A track record? One year and the odd game here and there? That's not a track record. The simple truth is outside of 2017 Wentz is an average QB with an average record. 

Just now, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

A track record? One year and the odd game here and there? That's not a track record. The simple truth is outside of 2017 Wentz is an average QB with an average record. 

If we’re talking about the simple truth outside of 2017 and a few games here and there the gameplan/play calling has been inconsistent or bad and maximizing and utilizing guys to their strength up until the month of December has been bad for pretty much four out of the five years.

Let’s take it a step further. If we are being honest with ourselves if it wasn’t for Kirk cousins being Kirk Cousins the Eagles don’t make the playoffs in 2018 and if it wasn’t for the NFC East being a dumpster fire in 2019 they also miss the playoffs. The Eagles have had a series of fortunate events just to be a playoff team but that is not the ultimate goal. The goal is to establish a sustainable Super Bowl contender. They’ve basically failed to be a consistent super bowl contender except in 2017. Now they’re some circumstances that couldnt been foreseen and some of it is just bad moves, poor coaching and players regressing.

11 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

If we’re talking about the simple truth outside of 2017 and a few games here and there the gameplan/play calling has been inconsistent or bad and maximizing and utilizing guys to their strength up until the month of December has been bad for pretty much four out of the five years.

I don't disagree with you. The play calling and game planning has been poor and simply not good enough. But Wentz also isn't good enough and what can this offense do when the QB has no accuracy, no consistency and turns the ball over at an alarmingly high rate?

10 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I don't disagree with you. The play calling and game planning has been poor and simply not good enough. But Wentz also isn't good enough and what can this offense do when the QB has no accuracy, no consistency and turns the ball over at an alarmingly high rate?

Cause he was doing all of those things in 2018 and 2019? He wasn’t nearly as bad as you are making him out to be those years. He was everyone’s favorite QB when he led the eagles to the playoffs last year with a cast of nobodies. 

Has he been awful this year? Absolutely. I don’t think that means he’s going to be horrific for the rest of his career. His track record while not 2017 even in 2018 and 2019 was not as awful as he’s playing right now.

Taking wentz out of the equation how many QBs right now do you believe have the eagles looking like a SB contender with the coaching, game plan and (roster from week 1 to week 10) you just saw this past week and most of this year? I’m guessing maybe 6. Wentz has been horrible however I don’t think if you replaced him with anybody but some of the greats in this league like Wilson, Rodgers, mahomes you would be anywhere closer to a Super Bowl. 

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Cause he was doing all of those things in 2018 and 2019? He wasn’t nearly as bad as you are making him out to be those years. He was everyone’s favorite QB when he led the eagles to the playoffs last year with a cast of nobodies. 

Just because he wasn't this bad in 2018 and 2019 doesn't mean he was really good either. The truth is, as I said, he's average. His record outside of 2017 is average. And in fact by the time we are done with this next stretch his record even including 2017 will be average. The reality is, he's not as bad as he's been this year but he's also not good. 

20 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Just because he wasn't this bad in 2018 and 2019 doesn't mean he was really good either. The truth is, as I said, he's average. His record outside of 2017 is average. And in fact by the time we are done with this next stretch his record even including 2017 will be average. The reality is, he's not as bad as he's been this year but he's also not good. 

you still didn’t answer my question take Carson Wentz out of this, how many quarterbacks if you put them on to this team from week one to week 10 with the coaching, the roster, the game plan would be a Super Bowl contending team? You’re gonna find very few quarterbacks that are going to have overwhelming amount of success considering all those factors you like to ignore. Would the Eagles be somewhat better with other quarterbacks? Clearly with how Carsons playing. But they aren’t the chiefs even with better QB play. However this team wouldn’t be a Super Bowl contender unless they had wilson, Rodgers or Mahomes with all the flaws this team/organization has. Unless Carson Wentz was going to play at that level which if it was easy all 32 teams in the NFL would have those quarterbacks. the Eagles were not going to be a Super Bowl contender based off all the mistakes and poor coaching and poor development and add on wentz hitting rock bottom that they’ve had

37 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

you still didn’t answer my question take Carson Wentz out of this, how many quarterbacks if you put them on to this team from week one to week 10 with the coaching, the roster, the game plan would be a Super Bowl contending team? You’re gonna find very few quarterbacks that are going to have overwhelming amount of success considering all those factors you like to ignore. Would the Eagles be somewhat better with other quarterbacks? Clearly with how Carsons playing. But they aren’t the chiefs even with better QB play. However this team wouldn’t be a Super Bowl contender unless they had wilson, Rodgers or Mahomes with all the flaws this team/organization has. Unless Carson Wentz was going to play at that level which if it was easy all 32 teams in the NFL would have those quarterbacks. the Eagles were not going to be a Super Bowl contender based off all the mistakes and poor coaching and poor development and add on wentz hitting rock bottom that they’ve had

But is that reason why we should stick with Wentz and not look to improve?

For me the QBs that would be doing a better job in this current situation?

Wilson, Mahomes, Rodgers, Murray, Burrows, Jackson, Allen, Carr, Herbert, Brees, Brady, Big Ben.

I mean Wentz has been a bottom 5 QB this year. I think a lot of guys would have been able to do more with what this team has. 

Why aren't the Eagles playing their 5 best offensive lineman?   Mailata has shown enough to be the left tackle and JP is better than Pryor or Herzigova inside.  I don't get it.  The game is way easier when you win up front.

Beyond that.  With a shaky OLine, why not move the pocket more?

35 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Why aren't the Eagles playing their 5 best offensive lineman?   Mailata has shown enough to be the left tackle and JP is better than Pryor or Herzigova inside.  I don't get it.  The game is way easier when you win up front.

Beyond that.  With a shaky OLine, why not move the pocket more?

Because the Eagles , like many "Philadelphia" institutions are under the IRON GRIP of a leadership structure that refuses to accept Reality.

Iggles as they're "Currently playing"  ( Face it they had every one ON THE FIELD ) suck in 2020.

Now unlike some other folks out there who would openly root for my curb stomping, I'm going to hold out Hope they win this awful division and in the next 2 months figure out a way to put a HONESTLY competitive product out there.

But I'm not going to waste time in 2020 defending their decisions. Like the Rona. ( Yes it's REAL)  It's "use" ? Big scam.

 

Best of Luck in all your Travels. Oh that's right, you're about to be forced back into the Hobbit Hole.  #HeavenHelpUS

4 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Completely agree. I was on the Reagor train but I absolutely saw the arguments and the case for Jefferson and Aiyuk. There were others too that could have been good picks. 

Revisionist history here too.

 

I was high on both Jefferson and Aiyuk before the draft and was laughed at by most.

All this Monday morning QBing is annoying as crap.  So many people coming out of the bushes talking about how we should have drafted Jefferson or Aiyuk... just stop.  Nearly all of you are speaking purely in hindsight.

And will the Nick Foles/ Carson Wentz debate finally end now?  For every person that would talk about Wentz' injury history, and then say they wanted Foles instead clearly hadnt looked at Nick's career very well.  Nick has never played a 16 game season... ever.  I love Nick Foles, but he's not a guy you hitch your wagon to for 16 games.  He might be the greatest backup QB in league history though.  

9 hours ago, RLC said:

Nor should they. Patterson is normally on the field, so teams don't sub when they see him.

Teams know what we're running with Hurts.

Foles still shouldn't be lining up out wide. Which he did

8 hours ago, Swoop said:

Not that Wentz hasn't been garbage this season, he has, but Foles has 91 passing yards and a pick...yet his team has the lead.

I think people forget it's a team game sometimes.

I said this Sunday, our team cooperates with each other in sucking just at the right time for us to lose. Carson throws high one play, receivers drop balls on other plays, guards let their man through on another play, dumbarse doug sends in Hurts on yet another play. We are a total team loss team

I was incensed at the time that we passed on Jefferson in favor of Reagor.  I said as much on these boards at length.  Thought it was a gift that Jefferson was there for us.  Could not believe we passed on him for the "faster” prospect.  That said, I came around to say let’s see, hopefully they are right and Reagor is better.  I thought Reagor was a nice prospect, just not the sure thing Jefferson seemed to be.

Then again, we don’t know for sure if the same people who decided to select JJAW in round 2 over DK Metcalf were the same people making these WR evaluations and this decision.  We never heard that anyone responsible was held accountable and fired.

I still like Reagor as a prospect, but Jefferson looks as expected.  The Eagles draft the way they do, bottom of the league for most of a decade now, and the Vikings draft the way they do.  One team now has a lot more young talent.  The other is right there with the Jets and Jaguars, except also $60 Million over the salary cap next year.

Of course, the decision makers followed Reagor > Jefferson with what I believe is the most insane and indefensible pick in franchise history in round 2.

It’s time for change.

9 minutes ago, John_C said:

I was incensed at the time that we passed on Jefferson in favor of Reagor.  I said as much on these boards at length.  Thought it was a gift that Jefferson was there for us.  Could not believe we passed on him for the "faster” prospect.  That said, I came around to say let’s see, hopefully they are right and Reagor is better.  I thought Reagor was a nice prospect, just not the sure thing Jefferson seemed to be.

Then again, we don’t know for sure if the same people who decided to select JJAW in round 2 over DK Metcalf were the same people making these WR evaluations and this decision.  We never heard that anyone responsible was held accountable and fired.

I still like Reagor as a prospect, but Jefferson looks as expected.  The Eagles draft the way they do, bottom of the league for most of a decade now, and the Vikings draft the way they do.  One team now has a lot more young talent.  The other is right there with the Jets and Jaguars, except also $60 Million over the salary cap next year.

Of course, the decision makers followed Reagor > Jefferson with what I believe is the most insane and indefensible pick in franchise history in round 2.

It’s time for change.

The Metcalf discussion is complicated by his medical flags.  He might have been dinged by the medical staff out of Round 2, and was rated as Round 3, we don't know.   The issue for me isn't JJAW over Metcalf... the issue is 100% based on their evaluation of JJAW.  People focus too much on who we didn't get.  The issue really is the evaluation process that went into selecting JJAW - period.  Same with Hurts.  Who else is on the board is irrelevant, really... Hurts wasn't the right pick, regardless.  I have my favorites every year leading up to the draft, and many times I am wrong, sometimes I am right.   As humans, we generally easily remember the times we are right, and quickly forget our own misses.  Then, we spend the next 10 years flaunting the handful we got right, ignoring the many more we didn't.   Ultimately, it's fruitless.   Whether the Eagles took 'your guy' (Not directed at you, per se, but along the line of discussion) isn't important.  Whether you identified a stud or not is equally unimportant.  The only question that really matter is... did the Eagles pick "a" right guy (not necessarily "the" right guy).   Looking back to the Graham versus Thomas discussion... the board was heavily tilted towards, the Eagles took the wrong guy.... well, here we are so many years later.  The Seahawks got 1 Super Bowl, the Eagles got 1 Super Bowl.   Thomas is long gone from the Seahawks now, and Graham is still making plays for this team, leading this team (as much as anyone else is, frankly) and having a career year.  Graham was clearly "a" right guy.  The problem with this team is far less who they didn't pick... we can debate this guy over that guy until the cows come home.  The issue is who they did pick instead.

 

Going back to when the Howie/Doug combination got together, there are very few players left from these drafts.  (Granted, a bit fewer options due to trades, but some of those trades were to acquire players, and they are gone now too - 3rd for Ronald Darby, 4th for Jordan Howard, 4th for Jay Ajayi, 3rd for Golden Tate... 3rd and 4th round picks can't be traded so frequently without creating holes in the roster LONG TERM.  You need some of these cost controlled players to hit in Rounds 3 and 4, not just be a 1 or even 2 year rental, especially a guy like Tate who also carries a hefty salary with it.)  That's an overall recipe for losing.   They have done decently with UDFAs... Herbig looks like a nice depth piece, Fulgham is definitely a guy that might have a legitimate future as a starter for this team... but most of those guys are just deep depth guys that if you are forced to rely on... you will struggle, as we are seeing with the OL (Opeta and Toth), the secondary, and the LB corps.   Not to mention the late round picks that have also not grown much.  For whatever reason, I think Pryor is worse now than when he got here, and working with Stoutland, that boggles my mind. Anyway, they do need a change, because this is a downward spiral of talent aging out or just leaving the roster.  That's not a formula for winning.  And, I've lost any confidence in the front office righting the ship... we need new eyes and a new philosophy to try to fix it.  (I say 'try', because there are no guarantees.  The next batch could be far worse.  See also, Dallas with McCarthy over the Clapper.) 

30 minutes ago, John_C said:

I was incensed at the time that we passed on Jefferson in favor of Reagor.  I said as much on these boards at length.  Thought it was a gift that Jefferson was there for us.  Could not believe we passed on him for the "faster” prospect.  That said, I came around to say let’s see, hopefully they are right and Reagor is better.  I thought Reagor was a nice prospect, just not the sure thing Jefferson seemed to be.

Of course, the decision makers followed Reagor > Jefferson with what I believe is the most insane and indefensible pick in franchise history in round 2.

I liked Jefferson as a prospect, just not for us. Scheme fit matters. 

Jefferson gets to play in the slot/tight splits against simple coverages because of the Vikings run game. His biggest plays last night happened by attacking zone coverage (sitting in zones). 

We got gifted Travis Fulgham and didn't use him for more Alshon Jeffrey snaps and Rodgers/Ward targets. So no, I don't think getting Lamb/Jeudy/Ruggs/Jefferson over Reagor matters either the way given how the QB/Coaching staff are executing.

Just watched the Foles injury.

That's what happens when you have a seive for an O line.

Sound familiar?