51 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

No one is going to question Nick Foles’ toughness, but that doesn’t mean he is not exceptionally injury prone.  Things in his body just break easier.  

I guess that's where i was going. He's played through a lot of crap

25 minutes ago, John_C said:

Absolutely.

The scary and perhaps very sad thing is if you threw out the Eagles scouts and personnel group’s years of work and evaluations, and just took the fan consensus pick or ran a Tate poll for each selection, you would end up with more talent and likely a better team that what these people have produced.  I’ve argued that Lurie should fire them all and just call Mel Kiper and take whoever he says.  Would be in better shape than they are.

When you draft this poorly for this long the end result is what you see now on Sunday each week.  You can try to patch it up with free agents or continue to mortgage future years assets in trades, but that only goes so far.

Mel.... Kiper.... please.  He knows a lot about college players... not sure I'd say he knows that much about projecting talent to the NFL.   That said, the hit rate in the NFL makes you question their ability as well.

One of the greatest draft day moments ever.    For those too young to know... this was after Mel Kiper called out the Colts (and Polian, specifically) for taking Trev Alberts over the stud Trent Dilfer.   In retrospect, Dilfer got a Super Bowl with the Ravens, and Alberts never amounted to much in the NFL due to injury every year and he retired after 3 seasons.   BUT...Dilfer was touted by Kiper as a guy who would change the fate of a franchise... turns out, he wasn't.   Dilfer was putrid with the Bucs, then went to the Ravens as a backup and was the 'QB' (if you can call him that) for a team that failed to score an offensive TD in 9 consecutive games en route to their Super Bowl.   His job was to not lose the game, and to let the running game and the defense win it for them.   Dilfer was terrible.

29 minutes ago, greend said:

Count me out. I suck at evaluating college talent (but even I questioned the JJAW pick)

Ok.  Then you get final veto power.    Would you have vetoed the Hurts selection?   If you say yes, then you get the job.   Warning, you only get to veto one pick every year, so don't abuse that power in Round 1.

9 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

If you are saying that the Eagles' organization took a promising rookie who achieved elite status in his second year and subsequently ruined him, then I cannot argue.

You can read between the lines however you like.  I wouldn't disagree with what you said, but I also wouldn't speculate to say that's the only problem.  

I got bashed in 2018 when I said they were going to ruin him with the offense they were building.   You can't just flip a switch from scraping by to conducting a beautiful orchestra with complex reads and relentless scoring once you get the weapons.

So it may not be Wentz' fault that we reached this point, but the end result is that he's not a functional QB.  It's not David Carr's fault that he never had a chance in the NFL, playing behind the worst offensive line in NFL history during his formative years.  But that doesn't mean teams were lining up to give him a second contract after his team failed him.

It's not "easy" for the draft pundits to go on the record either.  They don't have accountability to angry fans and owners with quick hooks, but they are evaluating prospects and making predictions that can be completely invalidated by different franchises.

You can love a prospect who goes to the wrong place and gets ruined.  The scouting is only a small piece of the puzzle.  Coaching, scheme fit, and surrounding talent make bad prospects stick and great ones fail all the time.  A franchise, at least, has control over all those variables.  

The media draft pundits can only project talent.

1 minute ago, Bacarty2 said:

 

I truly dont get this. In every aspect of life, When a child acts out, when a man cheats, when someone kills someone you always asked "what changed". What happened that made him do a complete 180

Yet with Telfon Doug we blame everyone else. 

I have plenty of blame to heave upon Doug.

3 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

It's not "easy" for the draft pundits to go on the record either.  They don't have accountability to angry fans and owners with quick hooks, but they are evaluating prospects and making predictions that can be completely invalidated by different franchises.

You can love a prospect who goes to the wrong place and gets ruined.  The scouting is only a small piece of the puzzle.  Coaching, scheme fit, and surrounding talent make bad prospects stick and great ones fail all the time.  A franchise, at least, has control over all those variables.  

The media draft pundits can only project talent.

Yup discussed this last night. Where you go, coaching and how your coaches utilize your ability and strengths matter. Deebo Samuel and aiyuk are prime examples. If you put them on the eagles would they be as good or utilized the same way as in SF. Keep in mind they run a ton of sweeps and motion handoffs with them and routes to utilize their strengths. Meanwhile we’ve yet to run a any of those jet sweep or motion handoffs with reagor. 

2 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Revisionist history here too.

 

I was high on both Jefferson and Aiyuk before the draft and was laughed at by most.

All this Monday morning QBing is annoying as crap.  So many people coming out of the bushes talking about how we should have drafted Jefferson or Aiyuk... just stop.  Nearly all of you are speaking purely in hindsight.

Yup.  We know the truth. I said before the draft that the only more complete WR was Jeudy and there was no chance we would get him.   I kind of knew when Jefferson and Reagor were still available that it would be Reagor because Howie is just too smart. That said, Reagor deserves a chance to develop.  I really like his feints and leans.  Nice change of speed move.  

12 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Ok.  Then you get final veto power.    Would you have vetoed the Hurts selection?   If you say yes, then you get the job.   Warning, you only get to veto one pick every year, so don't abuse that power in Round 1.

I wouldn't have had to veto that. Nobody in this blog would have picked him.

22 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah.  The reality is that most just want to brag about the ones that they got right, and try to bury the innumerable times they were wrong.

luckily, you have me here to decide who can be on the panel...😇

Just now, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Yup discussed this last night. Where you go, coaching and how your coaches utilize your ability and strengths matter. Deebo Samuel and aiyuk are prime examples. If you put them on the eagles would they be as good or utilized the same way as in SF. Keep in mind they run a ton of sweeps and motion handoffs with them ans routes to utilize their strengths. Meanwhile we’ve yet to run a lot of those jet sweep or lotion handoffs with reagor. 

Yes, WR is actually the best example.  People often cite that WR has one of the highest bust rates.  It's not that WR is harder to evaluate and project than other positions.  WR is a dependent position.

Teams generally draft WRs in round 1 when they are trying to fix/rebuild a broken passing offense.  If you have a bad QB, bad offensive coaches, or a porous OL that can't pass protect, your shiny new WR isn't going to be producing anything.  

An individual OL, DL, DB...they may get a chance to play at a high level on their own.  Big stats for any player are a bit of a team effort, but those positions get a chance to stand on their own.  

The NFL is now designed to be built through passing offenses that score at will, so the WR position is exceptionally important.  But it is also THE most downstream position on the field, literally and figuratively.  So you see a lot of busts there because of upstream failures.

 

7 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

Zach Berman was on 97.5 and just spend the last 10 or so minutes not really ripping Doug, but asking what the hell is doug doing. 

its a fair question. DP seems to be in over his head now

i liked Jefferson too, but he also has Theilen and a dominant ground game to benefit him. he gets alot of easy catches that i doubt he would see here...

Speaking of institutional failure, consider the production the Eagles have realized from their round 1 through round 3 draft picks over the past four years:

2020:  Reagor, Hurts, Taylor

2019:  Dillard, Sanders, Arcega-Whiteside

2018:  Goedert

2017:  Barnett, Jones, Douglas

   

8 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Yup.  We know the truth. I said before the draft that the only more complete WR was Jeudy and there was no chance we would get him.   I kind of knew when Jefferson and Reagor were still available that it would be Reagor because Howie is just too smart. That said, Reagor deserves a chance to develop.  I really like his feints and leans.  Nice change of speed move.  

Yup.  Too early to give up on Reagor.   But, I'm tired of all the people now lamenting Jefferson.  

1 minute ago, Desertbirds said:

Speaking of institutional failure, consider the production the Eagles have realized from their round 1 through round 3 draft picks over the past four years:

2020:  Reagor, Hurts, Taylor

2019:  Dillard, Sanders, Arcega-Whiteside

2018:  Goedert

2017:  Barnett, Jones, Douglas

   

Might as well go throw 2016 on that list too right now 😕

Watching the Wentz debate, thinking some of these guys have to be in their 20's and dont realize just how hard it is to find a capable QB who has the total package. Arm strength, Athletic Ability, and mental capacity to work both presnap and post snap. They haven't lived long enough to have gone through the Cunningham, Peete, Detmer Bros, Hoying, Aj Feeley, Kevin Kolbs of the world, to understand getting a good QB is not easy.  And they also dont realize just how bad our Offensive line has been, or how pathetic our WR position has been. We have a good qb we just need a decent team round him on Offense. 

I wont sit here and tell you Wentz has been great, or that he hasn't made mistakes, he has made mistakes, he hasn't been great. 

But I will tell you I understand why he has not been as good as he was in 2017. It is not excuses, Just the facts. Wentz not playing great doesn't happen in a bubble, there are way too many things that needs to happen before and AFTER a QB can deliver the ball that rely on other people on the team. 

 Since the 2017 season, our oline keeps getting more and more injured and unavailable. Just a fact. 

For those who dont know the significance, continuity is a must along the Oline, this year we have not had the same 5 Olineman out for any 2 games, let alone 2 straight games in a row. Every game is a different lineup. The why that matters is simple, Pass protections are complicated based on what the front is, who they identify as the Mike, or sam and how that relates to your position and the position next to you. They need to know not only those things, but also needs to know what weaknesses or strengths the guy next to them has, and how that may impact them as well. It takes continuity for an Oline to play well. 

Secondly, we have had dreck playing the wr position. Example: Wentz throws a amazing pass to Aggy in a crucial part of the game, who just would drop it when it hit him in the hands. And many oft injured players like Alshon and Djax or Mike Wallace, which made practice squad receivers playing. Even in sundays game passes that should have been caught were dropped, even Sanders dropped an easy 5 yard gain on second down that hit him in the hands. 

Wentz doesn't trust his oline or his WR's, and for good reason.  

I'm not giving up on Wentz yet because we have seen him when the Oline was good and the WR's were decent in 2017. We have not had that situation since. I will wait till we have that again before I give up on Wentz. Finding good quality QB's is actually hard in this league.

 

 

 

ok this will be fun - after the SB I will curate a Blog Draft Supreme Court of 9 (seems appropriate size no?) to determine picks by a majority. we can then compare the output of that committee vs what the team actually does. 

the beauty is that everyone can lobby said panel leading up to the draft

2 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Revisionist history here too.

 

I was high on both Jefferson and Aiyuk before the draft and was laughed at by most.

All this Monday morning QBing is annoying as crap.  So many people coming out of the bushes talking about how we should have drafted Jefferson or Aiyuk... just stop.  Nearly all of you are speaking purely in hindsight.

My preference was for Reagor over Jefferson.  I thought Aiyuk was a pick that would make sense if they traded back from 21.  I didn't think Jefferson would have been a bad pick. I am not sure that Jefferson is the better player in this offense.   It's clear Jefferson has played better but he's had better opportunity on a team that has a better QB and OC.  It's just not an apples to apples comparison.  Doug has done little to put Reagor in a position where he could make plays.  He has no rushing attempts.  I think they have targeted him very little on slants and screens.  So I think it's hard to see what we have in Reagor.  He has made decent catches but they are not putting him in a good position.  Jefferson, on the other hand, has been put in very good positions where he can utilize his skillset to produce.  If you think the coaching staff here would have been able to accomplish that, then you have been watching a different team than I have.  

so who should we hire as an OC? i dont want another Reid disciple 

3 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yup.  Too early to give up on Reagor.   But, I'm tired of all the people now lamenting Jefferson.  

Like many have said, I wonder what Reagor might look like in a different offense with a different play caller and a different passer.  

With that said, I haven't been very impressed with his explosion or quickness with very limited opportunities.  He was the pick I'd have made just because they were in dire need of a player in his mold.  But I wasn't incredibly excited about it; I felt that was dictated to them.  The better prospects were gone and I really think Jefferson would have disappeared into the underneath congestion of this offense.  Claypool and Aiyuk have been better, but they were consensus 2nd round picks (even if Aiyuk didn't make it that far).

5 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Yes, WR is actually the best example.  People often cite that WR has one of the highest bust rates.  It's not that WR is harder to evaluate and project than other positions.  WR is a dependent position.

Teams generally draft WRs in round 1 when they are trying to fix/rebuild a broken passing offense.  If you have a bad QB, bad offensive coaches, or a porous OL that can't pass protect, your shiny new WR isn't going to be producing anything.  

An individual OL, DL, DB...they may get a chance to play at a high level on their own.  Big stats for any player are a bit of a team effort, but those positions get a chance to stand on their own.  

The NFL is now designed to be built through passing offenses that score at will, so the WR position is exceptionally important.  But it is also THE most downstream position on the field, literally and figuratively.  So you see a lot of busts there because of upstream failures.

There's a lot of truth to that, but there's also a lot of fallacy.   A lot of Wrs put up big numbers in college in spread offenses, against bad defenses, etc.   They never learned how to play WR.  If these NFL failed draft picks were merely a victim of their circumstances at the NFL level, they'd be able to move to a new team with better circumstances and get a restart.  Very few ever do.   Was Freddie Mitchell a failure because of his circumstances or himself?   Billy McMullen?  Victor Bailey?  So many just don't have it at the NFL level for a variety of reasons.  And I think a lot of it really has to do with their work ethic.  At the collegiate level they were stars without having to really do the work.  At the NFL level, the work is what really sustains.  

6 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Speaking of institutional failure, consider the production the Eagles have realized from their round 1 through round 3 draft picks over the past four years:

2020:  Reagor, Hurts, Taylor

2019:  Dillard, Sanders, Arcega-Whiteside

2018:  Goedert

2017:  Barnett, Jones, Douglas

   

Under Joe Douglass' watch...LOL He was touted as being some great Personnel guy.  I remember when we got him I was thinking great maybe we could start drafting like the Ravens,  EHHHHHH no. We still drafted like the Eagles. Gotta move Howie away from Drafting players. 

7 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Speaking of institutional failure, consider the production the Eagles have realized from their round 1 through round 3 draft picks over the past four years:

2020:  Reagor, Hurts, Taylor

2019:  Dillard, Sanders, Arcega-Whiteside

2018:  Goedert

2017:  Barnett, Jones, Douglas

   

I mentioned that a few hours ago.  You can add 2016 to that as well.    And they've traded away a bunch of 4s, as well.

I like it when people pick out a handful of NFL quarterbacks and say they would do better here, like well we'll just jettison Wentz and the next college guy will just be better. Since McNabb we haven't had as much potential as we have in Wentz. Franchise quarterbacks don't grow on trees some organizations never seem to land them. You better hope that Wentz somehow snaps out of this and becomes 2017 Wentz again because I assure you if he isn't it could be a long time before we find a franchise qb again.