37 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Very interesting.  I point to our forward facing eyes, our front teeth and canines.   We are designed to eat meat. 

I know I'm a predator. I enjoy hunting but I loooooove the meat from most wild animals. Salads.........................................not so much

2 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

I also didnt know that the Eagles interviewed orlovsky but when Dan found out he wouldnt get the OC title, he wouldnt be calling plays he walked. 

What's your source for this? I thought they wanted him as a QB coach. 

20 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

What I thought was interesting was how ineffective they are at dumbing things down.  I mean they essentially said they try to give him an easy first read but that read is easily taken away.  

So if that read is taken away so fast that he can't even look at it and throw the ball doesn't that beg for them to throw in a double move and burn them deep here and there?

11 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

I'm sure there's some offensive coordinator or offensive guru out there that could do this and still make it difficult on defenses for a time but I think, after watching the last 3 years without Frank Reich, we know Doug Pederson isn't inventive enough to do this on his own.

And this is why the Eagles can't win games. Their QB is trash mode. Their coach is trash mode. Their defense is trash mode. The personnel department is trash mode. Literally every unit in this organization can't get right.

everything starts at the top and it starts by getting a quality gm and coaches and everyone that's overpaid has to go and start from scratch.

3 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

I don't think that happens much with franchise QB's outside of maybe the the beginning of a game to get an offense going and into a rhythm.

What this looks like is Pederson having to give an obvious "throw it to this guy" on every play because Wentz isn't understanding what he's seeing from a defense pre-snap and isn't making good decision post-snap.

I think the point you're missing is how bad it appears Doug is at making an easy first read.  

2 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

I don't think that happens much with franchise QB's outside of maybe the the beginning of a game to get an offense going and into a rhythm.

What this looks like is Pederson having to give an obvious "throw it to this guy" on every play because Wentz isn't understanding what he's seeing from a defense pre-snap and isn't making good decision post-snap.

Maybe because we have at least 3 guys, all from different backgrounds, trying to put together an offensive scheme and irts an incoherent jumbled mess

 

I said it before, we dont even set up or break tendencies.  We just run random plays, there is no identity.

Its like we're trying to break trends that dont even exist. Almost all of our big homerun plays are run to the wrong person.   

Doug needs to strop trying to outsmart everyone

5 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

The problem with this narrative is that this year is his worst year in terms of time to throw.  He was better in 2018 and 2019.  Both 2018 and 2019 were better than 2017. It's not his athletic ability that has changed.  What has changed is the OC.  It's clear the offense is not run well.  I am not saying that Wentz isn't part of the problem but I just don't think the narrative about his athletic ability holds up to scrutiny.  

I mean look at this break down from Dan Orlovsky on this play:

This incompletion is on Ward. Ward did not read the defender.  Wentz did.  Wentz made a good throw to the right spot and made the right read.  Now Ward was the issue. Did Ward not understand what he was supposed to do? Is the problem with the WR coaching? Is it a problem with Ward not reacting to the defender? Is it a problem because the OC does not communicate to the receivers or the receiver coaches what they should be doing?  

I think there's a lot of issues with the team.  I think some of it comes down to Wentz.  I think a lot more comes down to coaching.  I think a well coached team makes this play.  

I am by no means a "Wentz is the only problem" guy. But we need to get be honest with ourselves about what we saw last year.

Wentz had the same "OH NO WHAT ARE YOU DOING" moments last year even when he had more time to throw. They just didn't result in as many turnover for whatever reason. I can specifically remember several potentially game/season ending interceptions dropped by opposing defenses throughout that last string of games. You can probably put what is happening this year in the "law of averages" column. Is Wentz really this turnover prone? No. I think he's worse than what statistics showed last year and better than when he's showing this year. The rolls of the dice are just catching up to him.

I have zero doubt we could get the best coaches, the best receivers, the best o-line, and the best defense and win with Wentz. The problem is you're paying him like he's Tom Brady... which cripples the organizations ability to sign all the talent needed in order to win with a subpar QB.

12 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

The problem with this narrative is that this year is his worst year in terms of time to throw.  He was better in 2018 and 2019.  Both 2018 and 2019 were better than 2017. It's not his athletic ability that has changed.  What has changed is the OC.  It's clear the offense is not run well.  I am not saying that Wentz isn't part of the problem but I just don't think the narrative about his athletic ability holds up to scrutiny.  

I mean look at this break down from Dan Orlovsky on this play:

This incompletion is on Ward. Ward did not read the defender.  Wentz did.  Wentz made a good throw to the right spot and made the right read.  Now Ward was the issue. Did Ward not understand what he was supposed to do? Is the problem with the WR coaching? Is it a problem with Ward not reacting to the defender? Is it a problem because the OC does not communicate to the receivers or the receiver coaches what they should be doing?  

I think there's a lot of issues with the team.  I think some of it comes down to Wentz.  I think a lot more comes down to coaching.  I think a well coached team makes this play.  

Agree 100% Wentz definitely has the yips this year. But once again his receivers aren't doing him any favors and neither are his coaches. I just hope that he isn't ruined as some seem to think.

4 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I think the point you're missing is how bad it appears Doug is at making an easy first read.  

 

4 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Maybe because we have at least 3 guys, all from different backgrounds, trying to put together an offensive scheme and irts an incoherent jumbled mess

 

I said it before, we dont even set up or break tendencies.  We just run random plays, there is no identity.

Its like we're trying to break trends that dont even exist. Almost all of our big homerun plays are run to the wrong person.   

Doug needs to strop trying to outsmart everyone

Totally agreed. Doug is a dumpster fire. I've been saying he's a bad coach for years now.

Which is the bigger problem overall?  

Talent

Scheme

Coaching

5 minutes ago, toughfighter83 said:

everything starts at the top and it starts by getting a quality gm and coaches and everyone that's overpaid has to go and start from scratch.

I agree that it starts at the top and Pederson either has to change or go and quite possibly Howie as well. 

11 minutes ago, greend said:

I know I'm a predator. I enjoy hunting but I loooooove the meat from most wild animals. Salads.........................................not so much

You should try a meat based vegetable. Like Beyond Eggplant is a chicken cutlet 

14 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

The problem with this narrative is that this year is his worst year in terms of time to throw.  He was better in 2018 and 2019.  Both 2018 and 2019 were better than 2017. It's not his athletic ability that has changed.  What has changed is the OC.  It's clear the offense is not run well.  I am not saying that Wentz isn't part of the problem but I just don't think the narrative about his athletic ability holds up to scrutiny.  

I mean look at this break down from Dan Orlovsky on this play:

This incompletion is on Ward. Ward did not read the defender.  Wentz did.  Wentz made a good throw to the right spot and made the right read.  Now Ward was the issue. Did Ward not understand what he was supposed to do? Is the problem with the WR coaching? Is it a problem with Ward not reacting to the defender? Is it a problem because the OC does not communicate to the receivers or the receiver coaches what they should be doing?  

I think there's a lot of issues with the team.  I think some of it comes down to Wentz.  I think a lot more comes down to coaching.  I think a well coached team makes this play.  

With Fulgham running a deep post, I think it's more likely than I initially assumed that Ward did have an option route there (a shallower post or a dig would've implied otherwise), and if so, he should've sat in the hole but just didn't read the defender correctly. My initial point that not every route on a given play is an option route, is validated by the fact that no other receiver sits in space as their routes develop. Did they all simultaneously mis-read the defense? Possible, just as possible as Ward being the only one with the option route. Again though, tough to say that with confidence either way unless we know the play as it was called in the huddle. But if Ward did have an option route there, hard to pin that miss on Wentz, especially with a defender right in his face on release.

Just now, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Which is the bigger problem overall?  

Talent

Scheme

Coaching

Likely you will find differing opinions from posters in here on that. I'm gonna go with talent and coaching (coaching also deals with scheme). Players leave here and play better elsewhere, better players come here and play worse. We make the same mistakes week after week (offsides, false starts, not getting heads around in coverage, dropping interceptions fumbling, terrible punt return decisions and more) . Big slow Alshon get's trotted out who can't catch a cold, guys who can play (Fulgham and Reagor) suddenly stop being productive. 

Just now, Bacarty2 said:

I disagree. I think just sticking with the run  would of got us 2 more wins. 

I think roll outs and sprint outs would help immensely. 

We can agree Wentz has the Yips. Happens to the best of them. If you were trying to get him out of his funk...

would you,

a) Run the ball creatively, build a playbook he likes and run plays that he's good at

b) Sit him in the pocket with plays from 2018 and 2019 and have him drop back 50 times

 

Side question, when you do decide to go with option b, how many games to you continue to go with option b until you realize it wont work to get him out of his funk,. 

There are a million things that everyone around Wentz could be doing better including players, coaches, and FO deekwads. This team can better than what it is.

But I also can't accept a philosophy of "everyone else needs to be on their A game so we can prop up our 5th year, $120M franchise QB". That's some bullsh** you say when you have Nick Foles as your QB. Wentz can't be that guy if this team ever hopes to be a serious contender again with him.

1 minute ago, mayanh8 said:

There are a million things that everyone around Wentz could be doing better including players, coaches, and FO deekwads. This team can better than what it is.

But I also can't accept a philosophy of "everyone else needs to be on their A game so we can prop up our 5th year, $120M franchise QB". That's some bullsh** you say when you have Nick Foles as your QB. Wentz can't be that guy if this team ever hopes to be a serious contender again with him.

Honestly if all of them would get on their B game, Wentz included we would have run away with this division this year. They have all conspired to play like crap.

12 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

The problem with this narrative is that this year is his worst year in terms of time to throw.  He was better in 2018 and 2019.  Both 2018 and 2019 were better than 2017. It's not his athletic ability that has changed.  What has changed is the OC.  It's clear the offense is not run well.  I am not saying that Wentz isn't part of the problem but I just don't think the narrative about his athletic ability holds up to scrutiny.  

I mean look at this break down from Dan Orlovsky on this play:

This incompletion is on Ward. Ward did not read the defender.  Wentz did.  Wentz made a good throw to the right spot and made the right read.  Now Ward was the issue. Did Ward not understand what he was supposed to do? Is the problem with the WR coaching? Is it a problem with Ward not reacting to the defender? Is it a problem because the OC does not communicate to the receivers or the receiver coaches what they should be doing?  

I think there's a lot of issues with the team.  I think some of it comes down to Wentz.  I think a lot more comes down to coaching.  I think a well coached team makes this play.  

Sorry, if Wentz puts that ball on Ward it's a completion, the corner isn't getting it, if he hits Ward in stride it's a completion, the throw is behind him, you can understand Wentz getting rid of it quickly, but an accurate throw completes and that wasn't an accurate throw.  Frankly if you're trying to hit a guy you're expecting to sit down in a soft spot you don't need to throw it that hard, he was trying to hit him in stride and missed behind, that tape analysis smacks of Orlovsky picking a piece of tape and making a narrative to fit, if he was picking one instance in a consistently good season or Wentz hadn't shown he's more than willing to lead his receiver into a massive hit already multiple times this season I might be more inclined to believe he was trying to protect the ball and his receiver.

2 minutes ago, greend said:

Likely you will find differing opinions from posters in here on that. I'm gonna go with talent and coaching (coaching also deals with scheme). Players leave here and play better elsewhere, better players come here and play worse. We make the same mistakes week after week (offsides, false starts, not getting heads around in coverage, dropping interceptions fumbling, terrible punt return decisions and more) . Big slow Alshon get's trotted out who can't catch a cold, guys who can play (Fulgham and Reagor) suddenly stop being productive. 

That's a really interesting point.  The selection of talent that someone is putting on the field is a huge question mark.  Watching Peters gets used up last week, while Mailata stood on the sideline, is crazy.  Alshon, who looks like TE3 on the field, over Reagor and Fulghum is just insane.  Thanks for making the point.

10 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

 I have zero doubt we could get the best coaches, the best receivers, the best o-line, and the best defense and win with Wentz. The problem is you're paying him like he's Tom Brady... which cripples the organizations ability to sign all the talent needed in order to win with a subpar QB.

This is a fair point and it has been discussed in here a lot, how much to invest in skill position players vs the rest of the team

Some people say "you have a franchise QB and must surround him with as much talent as possible" and some say what you said, basically we're paying him to elevate those around him.  And I actually agree with you.

However, coaching is a huge problem for me.  

Look around and compare to the big money QBs and their situations:

Mahomes who gets both great coaching and weapons (somethings gotta give over the next few seasons with that huge contract)

Brady has great weapons now but not so great coaching, hes struggling.  In NE, he had the opposite, great coaching and poor weapons and they kept getting to SBs

Rodgers has been back in contention after they canned McCarthy and it was pretty obvious he didnt like him.  

Russel Wilson has at least 1 more SB win with better coaching, and now he has two really good WRs.  But still he is up and down.  You have to have coaching.

You can go on down the line, look at Matt Ryan, great players and sub par coaching.

The Eagles really arent getting either.  And so we get the worst of the worst.   But if you want to win in the league, you must MUST have good coaching.  Otherwise youre going nowhere

 

Just now, greend said:

Honestly if all of them would get on their B game, Wentz included we would have run away with this division this year. They have all conspired to play like crap.

Right. And that's what I meant by my first sentence there. We can be a better team right now.

I'm just stuck on the question, "What does Wentz's A game look like without the 2017 freak athleticism?"

Can’t wait until we end up with a top ten pick and Howie takes a shooting guard 

The biggest issue depends on the week. Early on injuries and Wentz were the problem on offense. The scheme was fine. Over the past 3-4 weeks the scheme has been bad. And there isn’t a unit that is playing/coaching well enough to help overcome it. 

I put this squarely on Lurie and/or Roseman. They pushed for these changes when Pederson clearly didn’t want it. 

2 hours ago, ManuManu said:

Interesting read. Also sounds like Pederson coaches Wentz harder than Taylor, among other nuggets. Worth a click.

 If you want to help your qb through this slump how about take out peters who is getting him killed? And how about running the ball more?  And how about rolling him out if the pocket more?   

3 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I thought the gambling issue ended with Leonard Tose...  I don't recall Braman being a gambler.

Yeah I think some people are conflating the two.

Braman was just a cheapskate. 

2 minutes ago, SNOORDA said:

 If you want to help your qb through this slump how about take out peters who is getting him killed? And how about running the ball more?  And how about rolling him out if the pocket more?   

Yup..... correct on all 3. Proof Dougy has no clue.