What is the point of winning?

[wyote]

That's the question asked by BLG: 

 

Quote

The Eagles are going to win this terrible NFC East, aren’t they?

[blah blah blah] 

Eagles projected record: 6-9-1

WHAT’S THE POINT?

The point of sports is winning. 

Winning is the point of sports. 

Winning has no point. It is the point. 

The process losers will come along and say that the draft pick is so valuable that they're willing to throw away a season. They think that way because they are losers. There is no guarantee that any draft pick will pan out -- no matter who the GM is. They want to lose this year because it's hard. Next year, things will be hard again and they'll want to lose then too. Because they're losers. 

In 2017 everyone loved pretending they were Rocky preaching about it's how hard you can get hit and keep going. But now we're back to it's about how hard you can whine and be sneaky and try clever little tricks like throwing seasons because winning is too hard. Forget actually getting hit. Life fakes a jab and all these Eagles "fans" flop like soccer players.  

 

 

 

[time2rock]

When the Eagles are on, I'm always rooting for them to win, no matter the circumstances.  I don't think it's possible for me to root for them to lose while watching them.  However, if we were to lose a bunch of games this year and it led to Howie getting ousted, then you'd have to look at it like that is the silver lining to a dreadful season.  And then pray the next GM has a much better eye for talent (obviously no guarantees there).  But what we're seeing goes way beyond just Howie.  There is just something bigger that is wrong with either the conditioning of these players or how they practice to continually be incurring so many injuries.  It isn't a fluke if this is a recurring theme 3 years running now.  I also think Doug needs to hire a respected OC to give up play calling duties and focus on running the team.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

I do think though the NFL is a little different to other sports around the world.

For example in soccer and in rugby there is no advantage with losing. In fact losing in some sports gets you relegated to the next division down. In the NFL teams who lose are rewarded with better draft picks and better schedules. So there is more of a point to losing than in some sports. But there also has to be balance there. Becoming a losing organisation, like say the Jets or the Browns, is a terrible habit. But losing for a few years like the Niners did helped them last year did it not? It helped them rebuild their roster did it not? OK this year they don't look good but they have 20 injuries! I mean their injury list is actually worse than ours and that is saying something.

[pallidrone]

What I dont understand about the injuries is that when Chip Kelly was here, the Eagles were the least injured team in the league. Fast forward to Doug and they are one of worst in the injury department. It can't all be bad luck.

I think it is a mixture of older players, bad luck and poorer off season conditioning in an attempt to get the Eagles as far away from Chip's totalitarian methods as possible. 

[PoconoDon]

The goal of sports is winning it all. There are commonalities among those who have done it multiple times. No team has ever won it all after 5 bad drafts in a row. Either you draft great or you're an also ran. How you go about drafting great is up to you but, the earlier you pick in each round, the better your chances of getting it right vs. your competition. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

4 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

The goal of sports is winning it all. There are commonalities among those who have done it multiple times. No team has ever won it all after 5 bad drafts in a row. Either you draft great or you're an also ran. How you go about drafting great is up to you but, the earlier you pick in each round, the better your chances of getting it right vs. your competition. 

I do think though in the NFL there are ways to win and ways to build a successful team... You don't have to win now to win later. You can be a bad team for a couple of years but if you draft well and make the right moves then you can turn it around. Bad teams suck for a long time because they don't draft well. Good teams who stay competitive stay that way because they tend to draft well. The key really is drafting well because if you do that you give the roster young cheap talent who help you win.

[pallidrone]

13 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I do think though in the NFL there are ways to win and ways to build a successful team... You don't have to win now to win later. You can be a bad team for a couple of years but if you draft well and make the right moves then you can turn it around. Bad teams suck for a long time because they don't draft well. Good teams who stay competitive stay that way because they tend to draft well. The key really is drafting well because if you do that you give the roster young cheap talent who help you win.

That is a misnomer.

It is really about player acquisition and coaching. The Patriots are a terrible drafting team, but they have been successful because they have had stability at the head coach and QB position for years, have found bargain players that were cast off from other teams that bought into their system and figured out the best time to cut bait on veterans while spending wisely on free agency.

There is no one formula to win in the NFL. Obviously drafting helps, but it really is a small part of building a team that too many people put too much emphasis into. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

That is a misnomer.

It is really about player acquisition and coaching. The Patriots are a terrible drafting team, but they have been successful because they have had stability at the head coach and QB position for years, have found bargain players that were cast off from other teams that bought into their system and figured out the best time to cut bait on veterans while spending wisely on free agency.

There is no one formula to win in the NFL. Obviously drafting helps, but it really is a small part of building a team that too many people put too much emphasis into. 

I think the Patriots are a special case though bud!

Not many teams can sustain that level of success let alone through building their team around a long term HC, QB and then bargain players.

I agree there is no proven formula to win in the NFL. What you do need though is to be able to draft. The Patriots aside a look around the league tells you that you need to draft well. Some of the better teams in the NFL have heavily relied on drafting. I mean look at the Steelers, the Ravens and now the Niners have rebuilt based on the draft. You need a good GM and you need a good HC and QB. And if your HC and GM align then you can make a real success because you have the right players to fit your scheme / system and those players are in then in a position to succeed.

[nipples]

Yep, the point of sports is winning. But not just winning, but winning a CHAMPIONSHIP. They have NO SHOT at doing that this season. So for the sake of hopefully being good enough in a couple years, the best situation would be to keep losing this year and get up there in the draft. The higher the pick, the harder it is to screw it up. 
 

I would take absolutely no pleasure in winning the worst division in NFL history with 6 wins, only to be knocked out in the first round. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

4 minutes ago, nipples said:

Yep, the point of sports is winning. But not just winning, but winning a CHAMPIONSHIP. They have NO SHOT at doing that this season. So for the sake of hopefully being good enough in a couple years, the best situation would be to keep losing this year and get up there in the draft. The higher the pick, the harder it is to screw it up. 
 

I would take absolutely no pleasure in winning the worst division in NFL history with 6 wins, only to be knocked out in the first round. 

I know everyone has their own view on this but I just can't see how sneaking in to the play offs (again) can really do this team that much good long term. Sure the play off experience would be good for the younger players but missing out on a potentially elite talent because of that? Keeping the same FO and very likely all the same coaches? I just don't see how that helps this team in the medium to long term.

[nipples]

14 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I know everyone has their own view on this but I just can't see how sneaking in to the play offs (again) can really do this team that much good long term. Sure the play off experience would be good for the younger players but missing out on a potentially elite talent because of that? Keeping the same FO and very likely all the same coaches? I just don't see how that helps this team in the medium to long term.

Agree 100%. I mean during the games, I can’t help but root for them to win. The fan in me just can’t stand watching my team lose, so I always hope they win on game days. But after the game, once the emotion of yet another loss wears off, I realize that it’s a GOOD thing. 
 

So, I’ll keep rooting on game days, but looking at the season as a whole, I know it would be best for them to end with 5 or fewer wins. The only thing at this time that could change my outlook, is they somehow reel off wins these next four games (very winnable with Dallas, NYG 2x, and Cleveland ). THEN, they make it 5 in a row by beating the team that has owned them for years... Seattle. If they manage that, then yeah I’ll maybe start to believe they can do some damage. But, fat chance of them going 5-0 in that stretch. I think they go 1-1 against NY, beat the Cowboys, then lose to the Browns and Seahawks. That 2-3 stretch puts them at 3-7-1 before going into a three game stretch against GB, NO, and Arizona. Not good. 

[pallidrone]

16 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think the Patriots are a special case though bud!

Not many teams can sustain that level of success let alone through building their team around a long term HC, QB and then bargain players.

I agree there is no proven formula to win in the NFL. What you do need though is to be able to draft. The Patriots aside a look around the league tells you that you need to draft well. Some of the better teams in the NFL have heavily relied on drafting. I mean look at the Steelers, the Ravens and now the Niners have rebuilt based on the draft. You need a good GM and you need a good HC and QB. And if your HC and GM align then you can make a real success because you have the right players to fit your scheme / system and those players are in then in a position to succeed.

I agree that the most important part is the GM/HC dynamic. This is followed by having a good QB and then really good lines on the offensive and defensive side. After that, it all depends on how you want to build your team and run it.

I keep seeing so many threads on this board about losing out to get a better draft position, that drafting better will make this team better, etc. Drafting is a very small part of any team. Yes you want to bring in homegrown, young, cheap talent, but that is not the only way to build a team and we have to stop putting so much emphasis on it.

I want this team to win this year. I want them to win the NFC East. I want them in the playoffs.

Once a team is in the playoffs, all records are out the window. Everyone is 0-0. Any team can get hot at anytime and it has been proven many times over the years and even a mediocre team can get hot and beat one of the best alltime NFL teams, as we saw in Super Bowl 42.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 minutes ago, nipples said:

Agree 100%. I mean during the games, I can’t help but root for them to win. The fan in me just can’t stand watching my team lose, so I always hope they win on game days. But after the game, once the emotion of yet another loss wears off, I realize that it’s a GOOD thing. 
 

So, I’ll keep rooting on game days, but looking at the season as a whole, I know it would be best for them to end with 5 or fewer wins. The only thing at this time that could change my outlook, is they somehow reel off wins these next four games (very winnable with Dallas, NYG 2x, and Cleveland ). THEN, they make it 5 in a row by beating the team that has owned theme for years... Seattle. If they manage that, then yeah I’ll maybe start to believe they can do some damage. But, fat chance of them going 5-0 in that stretch. I think they go 1-1 against NY, beat the Cowboys, then lose to the Browns and Seahawks. That 2-3 stretch puts them at 3-7-1 before going into a three game stretch against GB, NO, and Arizona. Not good. 

Completely agree with you!

I won't root against them but I have found that I view games with more of a balanced view. I try to look for the positives and for the young players with less expectations.

Not sure I will be sucked in if they beat NY twice, Dallas and Cleveland. I mean that's 2 very bad teams and a team who seem to be a bit of a rollercoaster. I mean sure if they somehow beat Seattle and perhaps Green Bay or NO? Then perhaps I will start to give them a chance in the play offs... But overall I just don't see me being sucked in by this team for beating bad football teams.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, pallidrone said:

I keep seeing so many threads on this board about losing out to get a better draft position, that drafting better will make this team better, etc. Drafting is a very small part of any team. Yes you want to bring in homegrown, young, cheap talent, but that is not the only way to build a team and we have to stop putting so much emphasis on it.

The key to me actually is having a GM who can actually draft. If you have a good GM and a good FO then you can identify and spot the talent in the later parts of each round. The Steelers find talent pretty much every year. The Ravens have been a good team at drafting. I think the emphasis needs to be on getting a GM who can draft but that is NOT going to happen if this team make the play offs again.

[nipples]

5 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Completely agree with you!

I won't root against them but I have found that I view games with more of a balanced view. I try to look for the positives and for the young players with less expectations.

Not sure I will be sucked in if they beat NY twice, Dallas and Cleveland. I mean that's 2 very bad teams and a team who seem to be a bit of a rollercoaster. I mean sure if they somehow beat Seattle and perhaps Green Bay or NO? Then perhaps I will start to give them a chance in the play offs... But overall I just don't see me being sucked in by this team for beating bad football teams.

Yeah that was my point... it would take them winning these next five straight, INCLUDING Seattle, for me to believe they are actually a decent team. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

8 minutes ago, nipples said:

Yeah that was my point... it would take them winning these next five straight, INCLUDING Seattle, for me to believe they are actually a decent team. 

Yeah same here! 

[wyote]

No one knows how we're going to draft. No draft pick is guaranteed. All the whiners around here like to pretend that if Howie weren't here, the draft picks would be turning out better. Maybe, maybe not. 

What is for sure is that losing now doesn't necessarily lead to winning later. Thinking that losing now leads to winning later is for losers. It's not strategy. It's losing. It's disgusting to see huge portions of a fan base decide they don't want to see their team win because they won't get such high draft picks or someone they hate might not get fired.  

I should be more charitable though. Maybe some of the people here are like nine years old and their gonads aren't producing much testosterone yet. Or maybe some guys are on some kind of therapy, or just depressed because they haven't been outside enough in the COVID era. Whatever. I won't blame anyone personally. But collectively, it's a failure of character.

[Guest]

[Portyansky]

3 hours ago, pallidrone said:

What I dont understand about the injuries is that when Chip Kelly was here, the Eagles were the least injured team in the league. Fast forward to Doug and they are one of worst in the injury department. It can't all be bad luck.

I think it is a mixture of older players, bad luck and poorer off season conditioning in an attempt to get the Eagles as far away from Chip's totalitarian methods as possible. 

Bc the O was out there for 3min tops per drive, and the D was too tired to care.

[NCTANK]

this should be pinned 

[wyote]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:50 PM, downundermike said:

That, that, that, that... that, that, that... this whole conversation bothers me. 

[jsdarkstar]

Winning. that's why they play the game.

[Madriver]

This team has the character to win, no question. They fight hard and come back to win tough games. That's valuable and should not be underestimated. It's maybe the one strength of Doug, that he's been able to instill that fight.

I don't think I can ask my team to just fold when they fight so hard. Changes need to be made, for sure, particularly in the health and player acquisition departments.

But we're at least lucky that we have a team that will, by and large, fight to win.

[wyote]

1 hour ago, Madriver said:

But we're at least lucky that we have a team that will, by and large, fight to win.

If only we had a fan base like that. 

[EagleJoe8]

On 10/21/2020 at 10:46 AM, wyote said:

No one knows how we're going to draft. No draft pick is guaranteed. All the whiners around here like to pretend that if Howie weren't here, the draft picks would be turning out better. Maybe, maybe not. 

What is for sure is that losing now doesn't necessarily lead to winning later. Thinking that losing now leads to winning later is for losers. It's not strategy. It's losing. It's disgusting to see huge portions of a fan base decide they don't want to see their team win because they won't get such high draft picks or someone they hate might not get fired.  

I should be more charitable though. Maybe some of the people here are like nine years old and their gonads aren't producing much testosterone yet. Or maybe some guys are on some kind of therapy, or just depressed because they haven't been outside enough in the COVID era. Whatever. I won't blame anyone personally. But collectively, it's a failure of character.

Sorry, but the bolded is a strawman. No one has said firing Roseman ensures the picks turn out better. What people are saying, is Howie isn’t good enough. He gets a few ok players here and there, but very few difference makers. 
 

Many want change because they’re not afraid of the unknown, even with the uncertainty that comes with the unknown.