NOTW Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 On 10/21/2020 at 7:23 AM, time2rock said: When the Eagles are on, I'm always rooting for them to win, no matter the circumstances. I don't think it's possible for me to root for them to lose while watching them. However, if we were to lose a bunch of games this year and it led to Howie getting ousted, then you'd have to look at it like that is the silver lining to a dreadful season. And then pray the next GM has a much better eye for talent (obviously no guarantees there). But what we're seeing goes way beyond just Howie. There is just something bigger that is wrong with either the conditioning of these players or how they practice to continually be incurring so many injuries. It isn't a fluke if this is a recurring theme 3 years running now. I also think Doug needs to hire a respected OC to give up play calling duties and focus on running the team. I agree with this sentiment. NFL teams do not play to lose. That's not a reality. You see basement teams pull together a win or 2 toward the end of the season and they are playing for pride, to show that they can put together a successful game plan and fight to win. And they feel somewhat good afterward. Every NFL team is looking for something to point to at the end of the season as hope for the future. If we just do this or that in the offseason we can take the next step. If your goal is to win a championship, some fans view the current GM, scouting, drafting, injury history for 4 years and issues with coaching, scheme and playcalling and see that this team will not win a championship like this. Many feel that in order to get the necessary changes to build a team that can sustain winning seasons long term means major change not tweaks. This team is built to claw back from an apparent losing season and squeak into the playoffs and lose. That's basically their ceiling. The cap situation means veteran talent will have to be gone and they'll have to rely on young talent. To take the step into a top team in the league they have to draft better and Howie is not the person to do that. They were on the right track bringing in Joe Douglas with his pedigree. Worked with Ozzie, the Ravens won 2 Super Bowls a decade apart reshaping the roster entirely and with different coaching staff. Now they have done it a 3rd time with the roster and a QB who is the MVP so they have a window to compete for their 3rd championship realistically. The Eagles struggle to defeat bad teams and perform like a 4-12 team. You can't blame injuries completely, because when they're at full strength or almost full strength they still struggle, and at times they are winning and fighting hard with backups and practice squad players. They thrive on the underdog, backs against the wall mentality but can't seem to go out and perform like a top team consistently. We root for them to win. But as time2rock said, if a losing season were to mean Howie might be let go or major changes that are necessary might happen then so be it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 What if ... ...Everybody did their job well the rest of the way, we made the playoffs, won at least one playoff game (proving we finished the year better than we began it), we built on the performance going forward, Howie does what is necessary to prepare a strong team under the 2021 cap and we draft the players in 2021 that the fan consensus felt we should pick at our draft positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
time2rock Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 38 minutes ago, brkmsn said: What if ... ...Everybody did their job well the rest of the way, we made the playoffs, won at least one playoff game (proving we finished the year better than we began it), we built on the performance going forward, Howie does what is necessary to prepare a strong team under the 2021 cap and we draft the players in 2021 that the fan consensus felt we should pick at our draft positions? What would you say the odds of all that happening are (especially the latter 2)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 1 hour ago, time2rock said: What would you say the odds of all that happening are (especially the latter 2)? I'm not even sure why people expect us to get healthy to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QBhunter58 Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 2 hours ago, time2rock said: What would you say the odds of all that happening are (especially the latter 2)? HAhahaha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 10 hours ago, time2rock said: What would you say the odds of all that happening are (especially the latter 2)? I'm not Las Vegas. I think there's a good chance the Eagles will be a top 10 team by the end of December. Nobody expected the 2017 team to be NFL Champs. Nobody expected the 1960 team to be NFL Champs. I have witnessed a lot of inferior teams winning it all over the years and I look at things a little bit different. There is so much hype out there that builds the more successful teams up into some kind of unbeatable powerhouses. Personally, I don't believe the difference between the top teams and the middle tier teams is all that great. Based on how this season began and all the injuries and all the mistakes players and coaches have made, it's hard to be optimistic. I get that. I'm certainly not betting my house on any Eagles' outcomes this season. I believe a lot of criticism is warranted for things we have seen. However, I do strongly believe that people (critics) have been going above and beyond in the criticism, attacking everything, deserving or not. You take a guy like Agholor that had an up and down stint here. Just a few weeks into his 5th season, after a couple costly mistakes, virtually the entire fan base had had enough. When he signed elsewhere after season's end, they laughed at that team. Now, all of a sudden he is doing things for his new team, that he did for us during his time here, and they are singing his praises and claiming the Eagles were stupid to give up on him and that our coaches were to blame. People are just talking in circles now, looking for anything to criticize. Agholor was a good WR3 that was not immune to making mistakes. The only real problem here is a lack of patience. When things go bad, people want heads to roll, they want change NOW! To answer the end of your question, I actually think Howie has a plan to deal with 2021. Barring any bailout measure by the league, he obviously will have to look to part with some key, high-priced players. They will have to be replaced for one year with a lot of stop-gap players. If the cap is lowered to the floor next year, there will be probably about 3 times as many proven vets looking for work in the right situation where they can play on a 1-year prove it deal to cash in when 2022 gets here. So maybe players like Ertz, Cox, and Graham are gone after this year (and I really don't want to see that), but we should be able to find serviceable guys to come in and help keep us competitive until 2022 when we should have space to make things happen again. As far as the draft, I believe people have been overreacting about some of our picks and trying to make them seem bad to force a narrative. We've also used some of our draft capital to get our franchise QB and to bring in more young players like Ajayi, Ridgeway, Darby, Howard, Avery, and Jernigan through trades. I think we can do better than some of our drafts. 2020 might turn out to be pretty good. I believe 2018 was real good. 9 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: I'm not even sure why people expect us to get healthy to be honest. I believe in the law of averages. I do not believe in curses or voodoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 6 hours ago, brkmsn said: As far as the draft, I believe people have been overreacting about some of our picks and trying to make them seem bad to force a narrative. We've also used some of our draft capital to get our franchise QB and to bring in more young players like Ajayi, Ridgeway, Darby, Howard, Avery, and Jernigan through trades. I think we can do better than some of our drafts. 2020 might turn out to be pretty good. I believe 2018 was real good. So I actually like and agree with a lot of what you've said bud. I can certainly see why you feel the way you do and I can understand and see your point. However I just can't agree with this bit. Howie has used draft capital to bring in proven players absolutely. But most of those aren't here anymore. Avery is looking like a waste of a 4th round pick. Jernigan was up and down but he's now gone. Darby overall was poor though that move worked because we won a SB. But Howie isn't good in the draft. He's really bad at all. And that will hold us back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray75 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: So I actually like and agree with a lot of what you've said bud. I can certainly see why you feel the way you do and I can understand and see your point. However I just can't agree with this bit. Howie has used draft capital to bring in proven players absolutely. But most of those aren't here anymore. Avery is looking like a waste of a 4th round pick. Jernigan was up and down but he's now gone. Darby overall was poor though that move worked because we won a SB. But Howie isn't good in the draft. He's really bad at all. And that will hold us back. The real problem with the Eagles drafting IMO is that they shy away in the early rounds from specific positions like LB, S and CB, trying to outsmart other teams (picking JJAW over a bunch of better WR’s like Metcalf, selecting Kendricks over Wagner and David, taking a flyer on Sidney Jones, selecting a very raw Davion Taylor in the 3rd etc) instead of just taking the more "sure thing”. We know they’re good at finding DL and OL talent, even late in the draft, but what I’d like to see is them hitting on outside corners, safeties, linebackers and widereceivers relatively early in the draft and not wait until the 5th or 6th round to address it. Until Howie proves he’s capable of drafting talent at those positions, I keep being sceptical. What are our biggest needs heading into the offseason next year?! Probably LB, outside corner, safety, maybe slot WR, IOL, DE. Because of the comfort level, they’ll probably go edge in the first and I’m fine with that but I’d like to see them go corner for a change here. If that pick pans out, you won’t have to spend big in FA on another corner. They were forced to sign or trade for corners like Asomugha, Maxwell, Slay and to a lesser degree Samuel because they’ve been neglecting the position in the draft for years or do you think March, Rowe, Jones and Douglas were viable options?! Same can be said about safety and linebacker... Make me a believer Howie and hit on LB, S and CB in april! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 59 minutes ago, Ray75 said: Until Howie proves he’s capable of drafting talent at those positions, I keep being sceptical. He isn't capable of drafting talent at those positions. He will always try to outsmart everyone because that's who he is. He isn't good at drafting and that's not going to change all of a sudden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray75 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: He isn't capable of drafting talent at those positions. He will always try to outsmart everyone because that's who he is. He isn't good at drafting and that's not going to change all of a sudden. I somewhat disagree... Because of the emphasis on the trenches and occasionally on WR (Maclin, DJax, JMatt, Agholor, JJAW and Reagor) early in the draft they barely used high picks on positions like LB, S and corner. Kendricks, Hicks, March, Rowe, Jones, Douglas, Allen and Jarrettt come to mind. None of those players have turned out. The closest would be Kendricks and Hicks. The former was okay and the latter really good but injury prone. Because they didn’t hit on those positions, they were forced to address them in FA. Ryans, Jenkins, McCleod, Slay have been hits. The rest?! Not so much! That philosophy has to change IMO. Can’t keep going back to FA to bolster those position groups. You need to draft good players there for yourself. Don’t try to be the smartest man in the room, just take the best player at any of those positions you can. Stop waiting to address them in later rounds, just take a stud early. Shouldn’t be so hard but as long as you devaluate those positions it’ll be Groundhog Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: So I actually like and agree with a lot of what you've said bud. I can certainly see why you feel the way you do and I can understand and see your point. However I just can't agree with this bit. Howie has used draft capital to bring in proven players absolutely. But most of those aren't here anymore. Avery is looking like a waste of a 4th round pick. Jernigan was up and down but he's now gone. Darby overall was poor though that move worked because we won a SB. But Howie isn't good in the draft. He's really bad at all. And that will hold us back. One thing you have to keep in mind is players leave. Because of the salary cap, whether you drafted a player, signed a player, or traded for a player, once their contract is up, you have to weigh the cost/benefit of keeping them. We would have loved to keep Hicks because he was a good 3 down LB, but during his time here, he struggled with injuries and it was too risky given our cap situation to pay him market value. Even if some of us weren't the biggest Vaitai fans, I think we all appreciate him a little more this year, but there's no way we pay what detroit paid. Yes, some of those guys aren't here anymore. Jernigan, Darby, and Ajayi all were instrumental in our 2017 success. All of them suffered from injuries that made the decision to move on the correct one. Finally, regardless of our opinion of his past drafts, we really don't know if his future drafts will "hold us back." That (statement) is a prediction, not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, brkmsn said: Finally, regardless of our opinion of his past drafts, we really don't know if his future drafts will "hold us back." That (statement) is a prediction, not a fact. But surely when determining whether a GM has been good in the draft or not you have to look at their history? You can't do it based on assuming that they'll suddenly get a lot better at drafting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: But surely when determining whether a GM has been good in the draft or not you have to look at their history? You can't do it based on assuming that they'll suddenly get a lot better at drafting? Why not? A lot of people are assuming players we currently drafted (that are still here) are busts. Heck, Sanders was an unpopular pick in 2019 and the (old) EMB was crying he was a bust and a wasted pick until midway through last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
time2rock Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 54 minutes ago, brkmsn said: Why not? A lot of people are assuming players we currently drafted (that are still here) are busts. Heck, Sanders was an unpopular pick in 2019 and the (old) EMB was crying he was a bust and a wasted pick until midway through last year. Howie has been GM since 2010. Minus 1 year when Kelly assumed personnel control and likely assuming Reid still had full personnel control through 2012, that's 7 drafts Howie is responsible for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 5 hours ago, brkmsn said: Why not? A lot of people are assuming players we currently drafted (that are still here) are busts. Heck, Sanders was an unpopular pick in 2019 and the (old) EMB was crying he was a bust and a wasted pick until midway through last year. Because why would he suddenly turn it around? And why would you want to take thar chance when the previous evidence suggests he's not very good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 18 hours ago, brkmsn said: I'm not Las Vegas. I think there's a good chance the Eagles will be a top 10 team by the end of December. Nobody expected the 2017 team to be NFL Champs. Nobody expected the 1960 team to be NFL Champs. I have witnessed a lot of inferior teams winning it all over the years and I look at things a little bit different. There is so much hype out there that builds the more successful teams up into some kind of unbeatable powerhouses. Personally, I don't believe the difference between the top teams and the middle tier teams is all that great. Quote I believe in the law of averages. I do not believe in curses or voodoo. Bottom seeded teams winning the SB is the outlier not the norm. In one post you're hoping for the outlier, the next you're the law of averages. The overwhelming majority of SB winning teams had 11+ wins in the regular season and were among the top seeds. You had a couple outliers with 9-7 or 10-6 teams but those are exceptions. In another post in this topic you're talking about facts vs predictions. Look at the history of SB winning teams and their records. Sure, "anything is possible" and they "could" theoretically be one of those exception teams but that's not very likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 On 10/27/2020 at 7:52 AM, brkmsn said: What if ... ...Everybody did their job well the rest of the way, we made the playoffs, won at least one playoff game (proving we finished the year better than we began it), we built on the performance going forward, Howie does what is necessary to prepare a strong team under the 2021 cap and we draft the players in 2021 that the fan consensus felt we should pick at our draft positions? The reality here is that we've been saying for YEARS, "if Howie can just nail this draft..." or if we just address this position or that position then they will... The LBs are garbage, the secondary is average at best. Howie cannot draft. His draft performance since Chip left is terrible. Every team makes a couple good picks, and the guys he picks like Goedert or Sanders are guys everyone knows will be good. They do well with late round linemen because Stoutland scouts them and says who he wants. Howie has no clue when it gets down to the later rounds which is probably why they find more talent there, relying on the board and position coaches clamoring for guys they want to work with. When was the last time fans were happy overall with a draft? It's not only who they draft, but who they don't. We spend several years debating a guy who is just average while they pass on guys they should have taken that are much better players. The purge is coming due to the salary cap issues, age and injury. And Howie is not up to the task of retooling through the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpha_TATEr Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 its way too early to be thinking about wanting to lose for a better pick. besides i dont trust roseman to make a good pick regardless of the pick position. the 5 game stretch after the giants game could very well be an 0-5 run so get ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: Because why would he suddenly turn it around? And why would you want to take thar chance when the previous evidence suggests he's not very good? Andy Reid coached here for 13 years and we never got to the point where we hoped this team would end up. Halfway through the 13th year, I was fine with moving on. It seemed this guy was always going to lose big or important games by making the same mistakes over and over. When he began coaching for KC, I mocked him for being the same old Andy Reid that couldn't manage the clock or value running plays. I was sure he would never win a Super Bowl because when facing a good coach, he gets out-coached repeatedly. I guess I was wrong. It seems that not only did he win a SB, but he changed somewhat (probably learned from his past mistakes). Weird ... Who knew that was even possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 4 hours ago, NOTW said: Bottom seeded teams winning the SB is the outlier not the norm. In one post you're hoping for the outlier, the next you're the law of averages. The overwhelming majority of SB winning teams had 11+ wins in the regular season and were among the top seeds. You had a couple outliers with 9-7 or 10-6 teams but those are exceptions. In another post in this topic you're talking about facts vs predictions. Look at the history of SB winning teams and their records. Sure, "anything is possible" and they "could" theoretically be one of those exception teams but that's not very likely. Yes, I made a prediction that the Eagles would be a top 10 team (think power rankings) by the end of December. If they win the division, they won't be a bottom seed. I agree with your overall point, but I also believe the law of averages can easily be a factor by the end of December. As you know, right now this team has had a ton of injuries, although most of them aren't season ending. The 49ers have had a ton of Injuries. Dallas has been hit pretty good. The Giants lost their best player. Then there are some of the NFL's top teams in 2020 that are playing with pretty healthy rosters. A lot can change in 2 months. The weather can change outcomes. We could see bigger crowds at the end of the year which could bring HFA back into play... There's still a lot that can change. Remember in 2009 when the Broncos started 6-0 (with Dawkins ) and were hyped up --- then ended the season 8-8? But a prediction isn't a fact. 4 hours ago, NOTW said: The reality here is that we've been saying for YEARS, "if Howie can just nail this draft..." or if we just address this position or that position then they will... The LBs are garbage, the secondary is average at best. Howie cannot draft. His draft performance since Chip left is terrible. Every team makes a couple good picks, and the guys he picks like Goedert or Sanders are guys everyone knows will be good. They do well with late round linemen because Stoutland scouts them and says who he wants. Howie has no clue when it gets down to the later rounds which is probably why they find more talent there, relying on the board and position coaches clamoring for guys they want to work with. When was the last time fans were happy overall with a draft? It's not only who they draft, but who they don't. We spend several years debating a guy who is just average while they pass on guys they should have taken that are much better players. The purge is coming due to the salary cap issues, age and injury. And Howie is not up to the task of retooling through the draft. For years? Did you already forget about 2017? Heck in 2018, half the EMB was all "In Howie we trust." Now all of a sudden they've been more than patient, waiting for him to do something ... lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 7 hours ago, brkmsn said: I guess I was wrong. It seems that not only did he win a SB, but he changed somewhat (probably learned from his past mistakes). Weird ... Who knew that was even possible? He was given arguably the best young QB the league has ever seen. A young man so good he does things that no other QB can do. He's probably going to go on to become the best QB of all time if he continues like he has. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoconoDon Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 8 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: He was given arguably the best young QB the league has ever seen. A young man so good he does things that no other QB can do. He's probably going to go on to become the best QB of all time if he continues like he has. Funny how in a QB driven league, coaches who get elite QB's seem to become great coaches all of a sudden, isn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 8 hours ago, PoconoDon said: Funny how in a QB driven league, coaches who get elite QB's seem to become great coaches all of a sudden, isn't it? When you look at Reid, though, he's found success with virtually every QB he's had. Pederson didn't really do much, but his job was to help teach the offense. McNabb came in later in his rookie season and had plenty of success with Reid. When injured, Feeley stepped in and played well enough to sucker the dolphins into giving us a 2nd rd pick. Garcia stepped in and looked pretty good after one shakey game. Kolb somehow managed to convince the Cardinals to trade for him. Vick came in and played some of his best football. We drafted Foles and he looked pretty decent. When Reid went to KC, he acquired the 49ers' outcast, Alex Smith who really lit it up under Reid. Then Mahomes. Reid was also the QB coach in GB for a couple years before the Eagles hired him. I think it's reasonable to give him some credit. A lot of these same QBs didn't have the same measure of success outside of Reid's offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoconoDon Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 hours ago, brkmsn said: When you look at Reid, though, he's found success with virtually every QB he's had. Pederson didn't really do much, but his job was to help teach the offense. McNabb came in later in his rookie season and had plenty of success with Reid. When injured, Feeley stepped in and played well enough to sucker the dolphins into giving us a 2nd rd pick. Garcia stepped in and looked pretty good after one shakey game. Kolb somehow managed to convince the Cardinals to trade for him. Vick came in and played some of his best football. We drafted Foles and he looked pretty decent. When Reid went to KC, he acquired the 49ers' outcast, Alex Smith who really lit it up under Reid. Then Mahomes. Reid was also the QB coach in GB for a couple years before the Eagles hired him. I think it's reasonable to give him some credit. A lot of these same QBs didn't have the same measure of success outside of Reid's offense. I'm good with giving Reid credit as a really good QB developer. That was never a problem for him. Jeff Fisher on the other hand was a QB destroyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, PoconoDon said: I'm good with giving Reid credit as a really good QB developer. That was never a problem for him. Jeff Fisher on the other hand was a QB destroyer. I thought McNair did well under Fisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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