13 minutes ago, Swoop said:

I think most of us realize that Hurts might be here next season. I don't know that there are many of us saying we should draft a QB high in April or trade the farm for a vet. I'm probably one of the biggest "haters" on this board and am not keen on either idea.

Having said that, people can realize this and still feel as though Hurts isn't good/isn't the long term answer at QB.

That is absolutely fine. I can understand the feeling from some that he isn't good and that is OK. Most people are just slightly on the fence one way or another.  I feel that most of the deep-rooted negative opinions on him are knee-jerk, short-sighted viewpoints gathered from people watching TV from their couches with no real idea on what they are watching, fueled by toxic sports radio.

Hurts is middle of the road right now. There is a chance he can get better and there is a chance he stays the same or gets worse. Some players hit their strides early in their careers while others took anywhere from 3-5 years to start to get it. He may take a few years to be broken down, properly learn how to read a defense, and improve his throwing motion, all traits that take time and patience. Anyone who definitely thinks that Hurts is one way or another are deluded themselves.  

1 hour ago, Swoop said:

I think most of us realize that Hurts might be here next season. I don't know that there are many of us saying we should draft a QB high in April or trade the farm for a vet. I'm probably one of the biggest "haters" on this board and am not keen on either idea.

Having said that, people can realize this and still feel as though Hurts isn't good/isn't the long term answer at QB.

I wouldn’t consider myself a Hurts "hugger or hater.” I just get the fact that this team lacks talent and at this moment it isn’t really easy to judge how good or bad he really is. Here’s what I believe. The Eagles had no intentions of starting Hurts over the next two years. They planned for Wentz to be their guy and only play Hurts if Wentz got hurt again. They felt they needed a viable backup they could groom wile Carson was under contract. Eventually they could possibly flip him or Carson for a 1st or two and keep the factory going. It all fell apart when Wentz faltered and wanted out of town. At that point I think the Eagles understanding they had a completely unfinished product in Hurts scrambled to find a replacement. Wilson, Rodgers, and Watson did not want to come to Philly at that point despite the Eagles having the trade capital to make a move. So they were forced to play the season with Hurts. In their minds I believe they had some static numbers and expectations (provided by their analytics department) for Hurts and the season and basically he and the team surpassed those numbers. This season Hurts has a new ceiling to reach. Those expectations are now higher and if he reaches them that’s great, but if he doesn’t then he’s likely gone by 2023. Overall I don’t know what Hurts will be, but I do think people need to be more open minded. It’s very possible, that Hurts has reached his potential limit, but it’s also possible a 23 year old quarterback who just led a 4 win team to the playoffs can improve too especially if they get some better talent around him as Howie Roseman has constantly mentioned. Not saying that Hurts at this moment is on the level of Herbert as a passer, but really have you ever looked at the size of the guys he gets to throw to and how much easier that makes his job? You don’t need to make perfect throws when you have receivers that have the catch radius of seven footers. Let’s get some more offensive and defensive weapons in here and then evaluate Hurts. I believe this is how the Eagles are thinking about this situation. This is what they have been telling people if they just listen. 

1 hour ago, Swoop said:

I think most of us realize that Hurts might be here next season. I don't know that there are many of us saying we should draft a QB high in April or trade the farm for a vet. I'm probably one of the biggest "haters" on this board and am not keen on either idea.

Having said that, people can realize this and still feel as though Hurts isn't good/isn't the long term answer at QB.

 

1 hour ago, pallidrone said:

That is absolutely fine. I can understand the feeling from some that he isn't good and that is OK. Most people are just slightly on the fence one way or another.  I feel that most of the deep-rooted negative opinions on him are knee-jerk, short-sighted viewpoints gathered from people watching TV from their couches with no real idea on what they are watching, fueled by toxic sports radio.

Hurts is middle of the road right now. There is a chance he can get better and there is a chance he stays the same or gets worse. Some players hit their strides early in their careers while others took anywhere from 3-5 years to start to get it. He may take a few years to be broken down, properly learn how to read a defense, and improve his throwing motion, all traits that take time and patience. Anyone who definitely thinks that Hurts is one way or another are deluded themselves.  

There is a guy on the blog who literally said he would replace Hurts with any quarterback at any price. 
Plenty of others have said we need to replace Hurts now. It’s settled down a bit in the past week as people start to realise how limited the options are, but there are still those who are absolutely set on Hurts not being the starter next year.

What gets me is the narrative that Hurts sucks and can be nothing more than a backup, when most respected analysts already have him as a middle of the road starter, 

Hurts needs to improve for sure and he may not be good enough. But it’s not a given he can’t improve sufficiently and the Eagles obviously want to see him next year.

1 hour ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

There is a guy on the blog who literally said he would replace Hurts with any quarterback at any price. 
Plenty of others have said we need to replace Hurts now. It’s settled down a bit in the past week as people start to realise how limited the options are, but there are still those who are absolutely set on Hurts not being the starter next year.

What gets me is the narrative that Hurts sucks and can be nothing more than a backup, when most respected analysts already have him as a middle of the road starter, 

Hurts needs to improve for sure and he may not be good enough. But it’s not a given he can’t improve sufficiently and the Eagles obviously want to see him next year.

If Hurts just sucked then the Eagles win two games at most. What made this team good enough to make the playoffs? That vaunted defense giving up 80-90% completion percentages? Really if Hurts just has half the growth he took from barely starting as a rookie to last season he’s a serious offensive weapon. We are looking at around a 66 completion percentage, over 4000 pass yards, and around 24 pass touchdowns. Not including his rush numbers that probably go down some anyways. He doubled the team win total in his first season as a starter. Right now he’s somewhere around the 17-23 starter in league. What did people think Josh Allen was after his first year? Heck even after his second year? Certainly not top five like they think now. The bottom line is despite the small section of people who don’t understand this fact the Eagles do and that’s players can get better and that’s why the Eagles at least for now are bullish on their quarterback. They believe he can improve. 

17 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

If Hurts just sucked then the Eagles win two games at most. What made this team good enough to make the playoffs? That vaunted defense giving up 80-90% completion percentages? Really if Hurts just has half the growth he took from barely starting as a rookie to last season he’s a serious offensive weapon. We are looking at around a 66 completion percentage, over 4000 pass yards, and around 24 pass touchdowns. Not including his rush numbers that probably go down some anyways. He doubled the team win total in his first season as a starter. Right now he’s somewhere around the 17-23 starter in league. What did people think Josh Allen was after his first year? Heck even after his second year? Certainly not top five like they think now. The bottom line is despite the small section of people who don’t understand this fact the Eagles do and that’s players can get better and that’s why the Eagles at least for now are bullish on their quarterback. They believe he can improve. 

To be honest I’d have Hurts a little higher, in the 15-20 range. The narrative has been built up that he can’t pass at all, that Devonta Smith would have put up 1500 yards as a rookie if he had Mitchell Trubisky, that everytime he converts a third down with his legs that it doesn’t count.

But otherwise completely agreed. He will face challenges and schemes designed to exploit his weaknesses. He could decline. But we don’t know until we see him.

10 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

To be honest I’d have Hurts a little higher, in the 15-20 range. The narrative has been built up that he can’t pass at all, that Devonta Smith would have put up 1500 yards as a rookie if he had Mitchell Trubisky, that everytime he converts a third down with his legs that it doesn’t count.

But otherwise completely agreed. He will face challenges and schemes designed to exploit his weaknesses. He could decline. But we don’t know until we see him.

Regardless if he’s viewed between 15-23 that’s still better than most of the rest of the league, and considering some of the guys at the fringe of the top ten he’s certainly capable of reaching those guys especially when you consider the fact he’s only 23 and younger than some of the guys in this current draft. The irony of Trubisky is his 2019 season (His third as a starting quarterback) is basically Jalen’s first season as a starting quarterback. Are we trying to move backwards or forwards here? 😂

It's gonna take a miracle for Hurts to become a top 10 QB. I just dont see it. 

Maybe if the Eagles actually get Hurts another wide receiver things could be different. 

2 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Maybe if the Eagles actually get Hurts another wide receiver things could be different. 

And how often was Reagor targeted? Reagor is tanking his overall QBR? No, he isn't.

9 minutes ago, Devaster said:

And how often was Reagor targeted? Reagor is tanking his overall QBR? No, he isn't.

Reagors was targeted 57 times. 4th on the team. His targets actually dropped as the season progressed. He was targeted 7 times and made only two catches  in the awful Giants loss so yes he did help lower his QBR. 
With that being the case enough whining. Who is the quarterback who is supposed to fix all the Eagles problems?

8 hours ago, KDUB1510 said:

It's gonna take a miracle for Hurts to become a top 10 QB. I just dont see it. 

 

3 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Reagors was targeted 57 times. 4th on the team. His targets actually dropped as the season progressed. He was targeted 7 times and made only two catches  in the awful Giants loss so yes he did help lower his QBR. 
With that being the case enough whining. Who is the quarterback who is supposed to fix all the Eagles problems?

KDUB - you realise that your source has cherry picked stats from PFF. PFF has Hurts ranked as their 11th best QB of 2021. As Brady has retired, he’s currently top 10. Guess miracles aren’t as difficult as they used to be….

For the record, I don’t think Hurts is the 11th best QB right now and his deep ball was very weak last year. But again it shows the narrative of picking on his weaknesses and ignoring his strengths.

1 hour ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

KDUB - you realise that your source has cherry picked stats from PFF. PFF has Hurts ranked as their 11th best QB of 2021. As Brady has retired, he’s currently top 10. Guess miracles aren’t as difficult as they used to be….

For the record, I don’t think Hurts is the 11th best QB right now and his deep ball was very weak last year. But again it shows the narrative of picking on his weaknesses and ignoring his strengths.

We both know he isnt the 11th best QB. He's a bottom 3rd QB and his legs are his saving grace. I dont have to cherry pick stats because i watched many of his college games and every snap of his NFL career. He's not Lamar, he's not Allen, he's not Watson, he's not Wilson, he's not Murray & he's not Vick or any of these other guys Hurts advocates compare him to. He will likely be the QB next year with again a top 5 line and likely improved weapons and you will see the same deficiencies as a passer. 

Hurts is a bad passer.  One of the worst in the NFL.

What is the obsession with seeing how good he can be?

Let's find a horrible pass rusher and stick with him for a few years to see what his upside is as a sack artist.  Let's draft a slow CB who can't cover and see what his upside is as a shutdown corner.  Let's draft an OT who can't pass protect and wait a few years to see what his upside is as a blindside blocker.

HE'S A BAD PASSER.  I don't care if he can marginally improve.  Let's find a good passer and see how much better they can get.

1 minute ago, eagle45 said:

Hurts is a bad passer.  One of the worst in the NFL.

What is the obsession with seeing how good he can be?

Let's find a horrible pass rusher and stick with him for a few years to see what his upside is as a sack artist.  Let's draft a slow CB who can't cover and see what his upside is as a shutdown corner.  Let's draft an OT who can't pass protect and wait a few years to see what his upside is as a blindside blocker.

HE'S A BAD PASSER.  I don't care if he can marginally improve.  Let's find a good passer and see how much better they can get.

You are only picking on his weaknesses!! 😂😂

3 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

KDUB - you realise that your source has cherry picked stats from PFF. PFF has Hurts ranked as their 11th best QB of 2021. As Brady has retired, he’s currently top 10. Guess miracles aren’t as difficult as they used to be….

For the record, I don’t think Hurts is the 11th best QB right now and his deep ball was very weak last year. But again it shows the narrative of picking on his weaknesses and ignoring his strengths.

What strengths does he have strictly in terms of passing the football? 

Just curious.

2 hours ago, eagle45 said:

Hurts is a bad passer.  One of the worst in the NFL.

What is the obsession with seeing how good he can be?

Let's find a horrible pass rusher and stick with him for a few years to see what his upside is as a sack artist.  Let's draft a slow CB who can't cover and see what his upside is as a shutdown corner.  Let's draft an OT who can't pass protect and wait a few years to see what his upside is as a blindside blocker.

HE'S A BAD PASSER.  I don't care if he can marginally improve.  Let's find a good passer and see how much better they can get.

We have.  His name is Derek Barnett.  Barnett's best year, based on production per snap was his rookie year.  He's regressed in pretty much every way since then.

1 hour ago, Swoop said:

What strengths does he have strictly in terms of passing the football? 

Just curious.

He's a good leader, competitive, people like him, works hard, and is improving.  Did I mention leadership skills?

52 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

We have.  His name is Derek Barnett.  Barnett's best year, based on production per snap was his rookie year.  He's regressed in pretty much every way since then.

You mean Brandon Graham. You know the guy that was drafted in round 1, was a situational pass rusher, did not really get to start until year 6 and really took off as a player in year 8.

35 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

You mean Brandon Graham. You know the guy that was drafted in round 1, was a situational pass rusher, did not really get to start until year 6 and really took off as a player in year 8.

Brandon Graham is beloved in Philly for his amicable personality, long tenure, and for one of the biggest plays in Eagles history (the biggest defensive play in Eagles history).

He's never really been close to special as a DE.  Never had double digit sacks.  Never a feared disruptor or edge rusher.  Just a high effort, all around guy who got a late start to his career and then kept it going for a very long time.

1 hour ago, pallidrone said:

You mean Brandon Graham. You know the guy that was drafted in round 1, was a situational pass rusher, did not really get to start until year 6 and really took off as a player in year 8.

Nice try.  Not even close to the same comparison.  Graham, while not a superstar sack generator, has always been a valuable member of the team, as a run stuffer DE and able to swing inside to DT as well.  And you forget he was forced to play out of position for 3 years during the Chip Kelly error.  He was never a 3-4 OLB, but was forced to do it thanks to Chip.  

Meanwhile, we are discussing Derek Barnett, who is a limited pass rusher, who has regressed from a production standpoint per snap, meanwhile racking up personal foul and offsides penalties.  

 

But, even if that comparison is a fair one, are you actually suggesting that the team should just put up with subpar play from their top draft picks and hope that sometime in their second or even third contract before it starts to pay off?

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nice try.  Not even close to the same comparison.  Graham, while not a superstar sack generator, has always been a valuable member of the team, as a run stuffer DE and able to swing inside to DT as well.  And you forget he was forced to play out of position for 3 years during the Chip Kelly error.  He was never a 3-4 OLB, but was forced to do it thanks to Chip.  

Meanwhile, we are discussing Derek Barnett, who is a limited pass rusher, who has regressed from a production standpoint per snap, meanwhile racking up personal foul and offsides penalties.  

 

But, even if that comparison is a fair one, are you actually suggesting that the team should just put up with subpar play from their top draft picks and hope that sometime in their second or even third contract before it starts to pay off?

The criteria laid out was to find a terrible pass rusher, who they stuck with to see his upside. Brandon Graham fits that description.

Barnett was a sack master coming out of college as he broke Reggie White's sack record at Tennessee. He just did not translate into the NFL the way he should have.

Brandon Graham, on the other hand, was not a dominant pass rusher in college and a lot of teams thought of him more as a 3-4 LB than a 4-3 LB, which is why Chip used him there. He shot up the boards because of his nonstop motor and his run-stopping abilities.

He is not a feared pass rusher, per se, but he is in the upper echelon of pass rushers in the NFL and probably one of the better run stoppers as well. It is not a coincidence that the Eagles pass rush suffered when he went down. 

The only reason why you chose Barnett was that he loosely fit into the narrative you are trying to weave here, not the other way around.

On a side note, that does not make me believe that Hurts will follow the same trajectory here. He still has to work on his game and improve his decision-making, his deep ball accuracy, and understanding of the game. It is a tough road ahead for him, but I don't see any reason to give up on him after 2 seasons. By the end of next season if he doesn't show remarkable improvement, then it is probably time to start looking at other options.

4 hours ago, eagle45 said:

Hurts is a bad passer.  One of the worst in the NFL.

What is the obsession with seeing how good he can be?

Let's find a horrible pass rusher and stick with him for a few years to see what his upside is as a sack artist.  Let's draft a slow CB who can't cover and see what his upside is as a shutdown corner.  Let's draft an OT who can't pass protect and wait a few years to see what his upside is as a blindside blocker.

HE'S A BAD PASSER.  I don't care if he can marginally improve.  Let's find a good passer and see how much better they can get.

First off no matter how much you whine about it the Eagles are still going to do what they want. Is see so much whining, but no viable options. 

1 minute ago, pallidrone said:

The criteria laid out was to find a terrible pass rusher, who they stuck with to see his upside. Brandon Graham fits that description.

Barnett was a sack master coming out of college as he broke Reggie White's sack record at Tennessee. He just did not translate into the NFL the way he should have.

Brandon Graham, on the other hand, was not a dominant pass rusher in college and a lot of teams thought of him more as a 3-4 LB than a 4-3 LB, which is why Chip used him there. He shot up the boards because of his nonstop motor and his run-stopping abilities.

He is not a feared pass rusher, per se, but he is in the upper echelon of pass rushers in the NFL and probably one of the better run stoppers as well. It is not a coincidence that the Eagles pass rush suffered when he went down. 

The only reason why you chose Barnett was that he loosely fit into the narrative you are trying to weave here, not the other way around.

On a side note, that does not make me believe that Hurts will follow the same trajectory here. He still has to work on his game and improve his decision-making, his deep ball accuracy, and understanding of the game. It is a tough road ahead for him, but I don't see any reason to give up on him after 2 seasons. By the end of next season if he doesn't show remarkable improvement, then it is probably time to start looking at other options.

Chip used him there because he was all about his system, not players.  Graham never showed any proclivity for dropping in coverage at any level, but did show as a run stopper... that's of course, the perfect fit at 3-4 OLB.  

I do appreciate you trying to read my mind in why I chose him.   Let me help you out.  I chose Barnett because Barnett is a LIABILITY on the field... he hurts the team as much as he helps it.  No reason that he should be brought back next year at all.

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

He's a good leader, competitive, people like him, works hard, and is improving.  Did I mention leadership skills?

That's my issue. In terms of strictly passing the ball, he's extremely limited. His only real value is being able to run/buy time. At his best, he is a low end starter that can get by with the BS against poor teams and get beaten by better teams. We saw it this season. 

With more film, teams will be able to see what he can't do. Again, we saw it this season. His play dropped off from the first half of the year until the second.

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

First off no matter how much you whine about it the Eagles are still going to do what they want. Is see so much whining, but no viable options. 

And no matter what the Eagles want, if Hurts is their QB, they are going nowhere.  And the whining that doesn't impact what the Eagles want will grow...until the Eagles no longer want Hurts.

It's just a question of how many years the Eagles choose to waste in the meantime.  We are at 1.5 and counting.