21 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

Agreeing with a bad argument and then making a much better one is rare....but good job. My question is what is the improvement that justifies him getting a 30+ mill contract that he most likely will be pushing for next offseason

Good question and no easy answer. Hurts could regress/not improve or take a big jump up and then it’s easy. Chances are he’s somewhere in between. In which case we should be in no hurry to extend him. We have the 4th year and the franchise tag if necessary. We can’t put ourselves in another Wentz situation.

43 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Good question and no easy answer. Hurts could regress/not improve or take a big jump up and then it’s easy. Chances are he’s somewhere in between. In which case we should be in no hurry to extend him. We have the 4th year and the franchise tag if necessary. We can’t put ourselves in another Wentz situation.

I have two fears for this season.

1) hurts has decent first four weeks and then gets injured and tries to play for it and everyone focuses on the first few weeks and projects his numbers and we are in a fan limbo worse than this year.

2) he goes to say 3500 21/9 62.5% and the argument becomes he grew, give him another year and he didn't grow nearly enough, go get someone....and we are in limbo again

 

1 hour ago, Shalodeep said:

 

1.71, 1.13, 1.77  2nd 3rd 4th years touchdowns per game. Last year as a starter was his highest touchdowns per game so that didn't work....won 3 games over the .500 Mark so that doesn't work (actually has a decent w/l record as a starter 29-21) 67% completion percentage his last starting year, his highest in career so that argument doesn't work..... Did you just throw a sentence up there and hope it worked? 

 

His best season was his second season, he did not approve from there.  He stayed stagnate and hit his ceiling.  

 

52 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

I have two fears for this season.

1) hurts has decent first four weeks and then gets injured and tries to play for it and everyone focuses on the first few weeks and projects his numbers and we are in a fan limbo worse than this year.

2) he goes to say 3500 21/9 62.5% and the argument becomes he grew, give him another year and he didn't grow nearly enough, go get someone....and we are in limbo again

 

As the 2022 season gets closer, I'm less and less concerned about the 2023 season. When we won it all in 2017, we tried to improve the roster by trading T. Smith and signing an apparent upgrade for less money. Mike Wallace goy hurt right away, and Mack Hollins had the groin injury. The offense sputtered with no legitimate deep threat. On paper we entered that season improved. It simply didn't work out. 

Right now Hurts is our QB1. We didn't trade for his replacement, nor did we draft his replacement. We traded for Brown and seemingly strengthened our front 7 on defense. This team can perform much better than last year with a strong performance from Hurts. If we make the playoffs, what kind of a performance will we see from our QB? That's probably going to be the most important thing to consider at the beginning of the 2023 season. 

It just seems pointless to worry about 2023 at this time. Do I fear Jalen Hurts showing improvement? No. That's silly. Like any starter, I'm concerned about his health throughout the season. But I'm not the least bit worried about either of your two scenarios. I want to see this team improve. I'd love to see us dominate at home for a change.  How we finish the season will have weight on what we do following the season. 

When the sales of Jalen Hurts jerseys goes to zero sometime this year, Howie will know it's time to change the QB.

Eagles Article on QB1 "The only direction is to rise"

Even the Eagles know that QB1 can't get much worse.

2 hours ago, CouchKing said:

When the sales of Jalen Hurts jerseys goes to zero sometime this year, Howie will know it's time to change the QB.

Eagles Article on QB1 "The only direction is to rise"

Even the Eagles know that QB1 can't get much worse.

Bold prediction there.

I don't pretend to know the future, myself. But my expectations are for the opposite to happen. I'll be rooting for Jalen all season, but will be very disappointed if he doesn't perform well and we have to start all over with another QB. 

It's always interesting to see which portion of the fan base turns on the next QB1, though. With Cunningham, it was "his ego." With McNabb, "he wasn't clutch." With Wentz, we had several: "couldn't stay healthy, refused to change," and "mentally soft." With Hurts, "can't throw." I'm sure if we keep starting over every couple years, Mr. Perfect is bound to show up. 

12 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

I have two fears for this season.

1) hurts has decent first four weeks and then gets injured and tries to play for it and everyone focuses on the first few weeks and projects his numbers and we are in a fan limbo worse than this year.

2) he goes to say 3500 21/9 62.5% and the argument becomes he grew, give him another year and he didn't grow nearly enough, go get someone....and we are in limbo again

 

Forgive me but looking at your scenario 2 if he put up those passing numbers and stayed at the same level of rushing TD's he'd be essentially Josh Allen season 2, Russell Wilson season 3 level, I know you like to argue that playing 3.5 games in a collapsing season in 2020 means he's actually a 5 year veteran but is your argument that unless he's 35-7 65% and 4000yds they absolutely have to get someone else, I'm just trying to get a sense of where the limbo line ends? 

13 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

I have two fears for this season.

1) hurts has decent first four weeks and then gets injured and tries to play for it and everyone focuses on the first few weeks and projects his numbers and we are in a fan limbo worse than this year.

2) he goes to say 3500 21/9 62.5% and the argument becomes he grew, give him another year and he didn't grow nearly enough, go get someone....and we are in limbo again

 

I agree with those concerns. I don't think Hurts is a BAD quarterback and I imagine he'll improve some this coming season. How long will it take him to reach mediocre? Mediocre is a term I'd use to describe an above average backup. How wedded to him are Lurie & Roseman?

1 hour ago, eglz1 said:

I agree with those concerns. I don't think Hurts is a BAD quarterback and I imagine he'll improve some this coming season. How long will it take him to reach mediocre? Mediocre is a term I'd use to describe an above average backup. How wedded to him are Lurie & Roseman?

I think he's better than mediocre. I think he's shown you can win with him in the league and that puts him above some starters. I'd say last year he was around middle of the road in terms of the QBs. The question is can he make the leap to near the top 10 this year?

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think he's better than mediocre. I think he's shown you can win with him in the league and that puts him above some starters. I'd say last year he was around middle of the road in terms of the QBs. The question is can he make the leap to near the top 10 this year?

QBs that Hurts was matched up against and won... 

Matt Ryan
Sam Darnold
Jared Goff
Teddy Bridgewater
Trevor Siemian
Garrett Gilbert
Mike Glennon/Jake Fromm
Taylor Heinecke

 

Let's take a look at the list of 'starters' on that list.  Matt Ryan, Jared Goff and whom?    And Goff was a guy that the Rams had to give away extra picks to dump on the Lions in exchange for Stafford.  

Darnold is a guy on team #2, after team #1 gave up on their high pick.
Bridgewater is a journeyman backup/placeholder
Siemian isn't even a placeholder.
Gilbert is a punchline
Glennon and Fromm are also jokes at QB.
Heinecke might be a decent backup level QB. 

17 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

Agreeing with a bad argument and then making a much better one is rare....but good job. My question is what is the improvement that justifies him getting a 30+ mill contract that he most likely will be pushing for next offseason

If he remains relatively the same QB he has been 30 million won't be possible for him.  

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think he's better than mediocre. I think he's shown you can win with him in the league and that puts him above some starters. I'd say last year he was around middle of the road in terms of the QBs. The question is can he make the leap to near the top 10 this year?

Top 10 offense? Possibly though I'd be pleasantly surprised. Top 10 quarterback? I very much doubt that. Yes Hurts has had another off season to work on his craft. Opposing Defensive Coordinators also have a lot more game tape on Hurts than they had last off season to analyze. It didn't take Tampa Bay an entire off season - not even an entire game - to see Hurts weakness. I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

42 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

QBs that Hurts was matched up against and won... 

Matt Ryan
Sam Darnold
Jared Goff
Teddy Bridgewater
Trevor Siemian
Garrett Gilbert
Mike Glennon/Jake Fromm
Taylor Heinecke

 

Let's take a look at the list of 'starters' on that list.  Matt Ryan, Jared Goff and whom?    And Goff was a guy that the Rams had to give away extra picks to dump on the Lions in exchange for Stafford.  

Darnold is a guy on team #2, after team #1 gave up on their high pick.
Bridgewater is a journeyman backup/placeholder
Siemian isn't even a placeholder.
Gilbert is a punchline
Glennon and Fromm are also jokes at QB.
Heinecke might be a decent backup level QB. 

This is all very well, but our roster last year, how many QB's could we put in there that would put us over the hump against Dallas with a top 3 receiver corps, the Chiefs and Mahomes or the Superbowl Champs with Tom Brady with a defense that was allowing 80% completion in all 3 games?  We'd have lost with Hurts, Wentz and hell even McNabb.

Minshew beat the Jets and Zach WIlson who were a cluster f both sides of the ball and about a dozen posters on this board would have chugged his dong.

5 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

This is all very well, but our roster last year, how many QB's could we put in there that would put us over the hump against Dallas with a top 3 receiver corps, the Chiefs and Mahomes or the Superbowl Champs with Tom Brady with a defense that was allowing 80% completion in all 3 games?  We'd have lost with Hurts, Wentz and hell even McNabb.

Minshew beat the Jets and Zach WIlson who were a cluster f both sides of the ball and about a dozen posters on this board would have chugged his dong.

Who said anything about Minshew?  The point is the argument "you can win with Hurts" is a bit weak when you look at who the matchups actually were.  When looking at that list, it puts Hurts about where I've always seen him... bottom tier starter, top level backup.  

45 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Who said anything about Minshew?  The point is the argument "you can win with Hurts" is a bit weak when you look at who the matchups actually were.  When looking at that list, it puts Hurts about where I've always seen him... bottom tier starter, top level backup.  

Fine you didn't mention Minshew but you said Hurts didn't beat anyone good last year so the self evident queston (that you avoided) is, if the big problem was the QB,  who that was available would have kept us in a shootout against QB's that were torching our defense all game?  You're saying Hurts isn't good enough and I say jury's out but they're close to a verdict and it's not looking good, but who is it that would've done better last year?

Minshew didn't exactly set the World alight against the Jets and he's kind of option one.

Way too many arbitrary stat-lines being thrown around. It comes down to wins to me. If Hurts isn't able to propel the team to 12-13+ wins then he can be comfortably viewed as the average/below-average league starter that he currently is.

A bunch of Hurts' stats last year were propped up by garbage time in games that were out of hand. We have seen a lot of bad or average QB's propped up by garbage time when the opposing defense plays prevent defense and not to lose because they have a comfortable lead. We saw it happen against the Bucs in the playoffs. That game was over at half-time.

Bortles once had a decent year stat-wise. It also coincided with an amazing year for his WR Allen Robinson. But anyone watching Bortles or the Jags that season understood it was all propped by garbage time. They still only won 5 games. Stats are meaningless without context. Wins mean a hell of a lot more.

4 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

QBs that Hurts was matched up against and won... 

Matt Ryan
Sam Darnold
Jared Goff
Teddy Bridgewater
Trevor Siemian
Garrett Gilbert
Mike Glennon/Jake Fromm
Taylor Heinecke

 

Let's take a look at the list of 'starters' on that list.  Matt Ryan, Jared Goff and whom?    And Goff was a guy that the Rams had to give away extra picks to dump on the Lions in exchange for Stafford.  

Darnold is a guy on team #2, after team #1 gave up on their high pick.
Bridgewater is a journeyman backup/placeholder
Siemian isn't even a placeholder.
Gilbert is a punchline
Glennon and Fromm are also jokes at QB.
Heinecke might be a decent backup level QB. 

Qb vs Qb head to head matchups is a marketing ploy tv networks use to create hype around an upcoming game. The QBs are never on the field at the same time. There is zero benefit to evaluate how Hurts did "head to head” against other QBs, you’re really making a case that we needed to address our defense because they couldn’t stop any above average qb.

To be clear, I support the decision to give Hurts another year to prove himself. Mostly because of the other holes we had/have on the roster. We added Jordan Davis, AJ Brown, Hassan Reddick, kept Fletcher Cox, added Jurgens who can replace Kelce at some point and we still have 2 1st round picks next year.

I’ll take Hurts WITH those added pieces over Russell Wilson WITHOUT those players.

5 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

QBs that Hurts was matched up against and won... 

Matt Ryan
Sam Darnold
Jared Goff
Teddy Bridgewater
Trevor Siemian
Garrett Gilbert
Mike Glennon/Jake Fromm
Taylor Heinecke

 

Let's take a look at the list of 'starters' on that list.  Matt Ryan, Jared Goff and whom?    And Goff was a guy that the Rams had to give away extra picks to dump on the Lions in exchange for Stafford.  

Darnold is a guy on team #2, after team #1 gave up on their high pick.
Bridgewater is a journeyman backup/placeholder
Siemian isn't even a placeholder.
Gilbert is a punchline
Glennon and Fromm are also jokes at QB.
Heinecke might be a decent backup level QB. 

And which QBs does he face this year?

Jameis Winston, Fields (with nothing around him), Jones, Goff, Wentz, Tannehill (without his best weapon), Trubisky or the rookie Pickett, Ryan who he beat last year.

The best QBs he faces are Murray, Prescott and Rodgers. 

7 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

And which QBs does he face this year?

Jameis Winston, Fields (with nothing around him), Jones, Goff, Wentz, Tannehill (without his best weapon), Trubisky or the rookie Pickett, Ryan who he beat last year.

The best QBs he faces are Murray, Prescott and Rodgers. 

Can Hurts play safety or CB?

We could use some help against some of these QBs.

1 hour ago, MidMoFo said:

Qb vs Qb head to head matchups is a marketing ploy tv networks use to create hype around an upcoming game. The QBs are never on the field at the same time. There is zero benefit to evaluate how Hurts did "head to head” against other QBs, you’re really making a case that we needed to address our defense because they couldn’t stop any above average qb.

To be clear, I support the decision to give Hurts another year to prove himself. Mostly because of the other holes we had/have on the roster. We added Jordan Davis, AJ Brown, Hassan Reddick, kept Fletcher Cox, added Jurgens who can replace Kelce at some point and we still have 2 1st round picks next year.

I’ll take Hurts WITH those added pieces over Russell Wilson WITHOUT those players.

That's very true... but it also is about how much scoring is required to keep up with the opposition.  Playing against a player like Jake Fromm means you can not do anything for most of the first half (3 points) and still have the complete play book open because the Giants did nothing as well.   Meanwhile, doing that against the likes of Tom Brady or even Dak Prescott means you are in a significant hole and now you have to throw the ball much more.  It doesn't mean nothing.  It definitely means something.

Just as an FYI... in the first 6 quarters against the Giants, the Eagles offense under Hurts scored a grand total of 10 points.  That's not on the defense, that's on the offense.  

27 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

And which QBs does he face this year?

Jameis Winston, Fields (with nothing around him), Jones, Goff, Wentz, Tannehill (without his best weapon), Trubisky or the rookie Pickett, Ryan who he beat last year.

The best QBs he faces are Murray, Prescott and Rodgers. 

Yeah... there is a good chance that Hurts can be pretty much the same as he was this past year and can't win fewer than 7 games.  

9 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

Forgive me but looking at your scenario 2 if he put up those passing numbers and stayed at the same level of rushing TD's he'd be essentially Josh Allen season 2, Russell Wilson season 3 level, I know you like to argue that playing 3.5 games in a collapsing season in 2020 means he's actually a 5 year veteran but is your argument that unless he's 35-7 65% and 4000yds they absolutely have to get someone else, I'm just trying to get a sense of where the limbo line ends? 

I don't expect his rushing to stay as outrageous as they were last year and put up those numbers just to clarify. Him getting 10 rushing touchdowns again are very unlikely. Only one QB has ever gotten more than one season of that many rushing touchdowns and it's who I think Hurts is a worse version of, and that's Cam Newton. I think 22/12 if he throws more a game and under 600 rushing with 4-5tds. The starting running back got zero TDs on the ground this year. That definitely doesn't occur again without some noise being made. If 3500 21/8 at 63% is the amazing jump he needs to be the guy for you, awesome..

But I don't measure qbs by their rushing stats because they aren't sustainable and are what makes you one dimensional in stress situation . Just because you can run doesn't mean you should. Hurts is a free style dancer back there running from his shadow and pulling the ball from his RB hands and calling his own number too often for anything to last more than a few years. My guess is his goes 3200 63% and 21/12 with 600 rushing 5 TDS equating to the same touchdowns. I think you'll see frustration from the fan base and calling for his head week 10ish but they will ride it out, take the Ls and Howie will claim Hurts is the guy until draft day and then say Howie things 

49 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's very true... but it also is about how much scoring is required to keep up with the opposition.  Playing against a player like Jake Fromm means you can not do anything for most of the first half (3 points) and still have the complete play book open because the Giants did nothing as well.   Meanwhile, doing that against the likes of Tom Brady or even Dak Prescott means you are in a significant hole and now you have to throw the ball much more.  It doesn't mean nothing.  It definitely means something.

Just as an FYI... in the first 6 quarters against the Giants, the Eagles offense under Hurts scored a grand total of 10 points.  That's not on the defense, that's on the offense.  

Yeah... there is a good chance that Hurts can be pretty much the same as he was this past year and can't win fewer than 7 games.  

You can do this if you’re trying to decide what level of qb play you deem acceptable for the team, but not to evaluate the qb.

If the Eagles decide to go old school and invest heavily on defense moving forward and in say a year or two they get to the point that we have a true lock-down, suffocating defense… but Hurts doesn’t show any improvement. If the defense is holding other teams to less than 7 points a game… does that mean Hurts is a top 5 qb? No, but maybe you find him acceptable since he’s controlling the clock and putting points on the board.

9 hours ago, eglz1 said:

I agree with those concerns. I don't think Hurts is a BAD quarterback and I imagine he'll improve some this coming season. How long will it take him to reach mediocre? Mediocre is a term I'd use to describe an above average backup. How wedded to him are Lurie & Roseman?

 

7 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think he's better than mediocre. I think he's shown you can win with him in the league and that puts him above some starters. I'd say last year he was around middle of the road in terms of the QBs. The question is can he make the leap to near the top 10 this year?

 

51 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

I don't expect his rushing to stay as outrageous as they were last year and put up those numbers just to clarify. Him getting 10 rushing touchdowns again are very unlikely. Only one QB has ever gotten more than one season of that many rushing touchdowns and it's who I think Hurts is a worse version of, and that's Cam Newton. I think 22/12 if he throws more a game and under 600 rushing with 4-5tds. The starting running back got zero TDs on the ground this year. That definitely doesn't occur again without some noise being made. If 3500 21/8 at 63% is the amazing jump he needs to be the guy for you, awesome..

But I don't measure qbs by their rushing stats because they aren't sustainable and are what makes you one dimensional in stress situation . Just because you can run doesn't mean you should. Hurts is a free style dancer back there running from his shadow and pulling the ball from his RB hands and calling his own number too often for anything to last more than a few years. My guess is his goes 3200 63% and 21/12 with 600 rushing 5 TDS equating to the same touchdowns. I think you'll see frustration from the fan base and calling for his head week 10ish but they will ride it out, take the Ls and Howie will claim Hurts is the guy until draft day and then say Howie things 

Hurts was generally ranked around 17 in starting QBs by most analysts last year. So to say that you hope he can reach the level of above average backup is just wrong. He is already an average to below average starting QB. 

Provided everyone stays relatively healthy, AJ Brown alone should make a huge difference to Hurts. I expect him to be approaching 4000 yards and to throw 25-30 TDs, if he can stay healthy. 

Now I still don't know if he can be the guy going forward, or earn that big contract, but he's better than a lot of people think and the Eagles have put him in a really strong position to succeed.

In my opinion, Hurts has to take another step forward or I’m looking for another option next off-season. He needs to get 3600+ yards passing, 20+ tds, 15- int, but more important than just the numbers, he’s got to look better doing it. He’s got to play with better anticipation, see receivers wide-open down field and be able to attack ALL areas of the field with success.

If not, I’d trade draft capital to move up in the draft or get a proven vet for 2023.

4 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

 

Hurts was generally ranked around 17 in starting QBs by most analysts last year. So to say that you hope he can reach the level of above average backup is just wrong. He is already an average to below average starting QB. 

Provided everyone stays relatively healthy, AJ Brown alone should make a huge difference to Hurts. I expect him to be approaching 4000 yards and to throw 25-30 TDs, if he can stay healthy. 

Now I still don't know if he can be the guy going forward, or earn that big contract, but he's better than a lot of people think and the Eagles have put him in a really strong position to succeed.

Above average backup arm talent, good back up decision making, rookie level hesitation.  I think 4k and nearing 30tds is an absolutely insane jump and shouldn't be counted on...but I would love to eat that plate of crow at the end of the season.  17th best is about where I have him right now when you add the legs....that's the problem though. Those ahead of him won't be easy to overcome and then next year's draft will probably put 2-3 more ahead of him. Luckily there is one definitely retiring so maybe he hold top twenty for one more year