12 hours ago, jsb235 said:

It was explained pretty well. If you don't get it, i am not sure i can do any better. If you woke up this morning thinking carson wentz came into the nfl with physical traits that were the same as jalen hurts, and different than mahomes and allen, i am not sure anything i say will make you wake up tomorrow with a different opinion.

I woke up this morning thinking it was 7am but realized it was only 6.  Things change and people are sometimes incorrect in their assessments.  At one point, we all thought/hoped Wentz was, finally, the franchise QB we’d been waiting for (Sam Bradford will do that to you).  He wasn't.  He’s physically brittle,  emotionally immature and his envy of Nick Foles turned him into a bad teammate.  

If he's so talented why did he flop in Indy and Washington?  The Colts owner publicly ran him out of town and the Commanders are playing better behind Taylor Heinicke. So where's all the talent?  

Lots of guys can throw.a great ball but talent is the ability to do it at the highest level.  Comparing Wentz to Mahomes is like comparing a Honda to a Harley.  

13 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

I woke up this morning thinking it was 7am but realized it was only 6.  Things change and people are sometimes incorrect in their assessments.  At one point, we all thought/hoped Wentz was, finally, the franchise QB we’d been waiting for (Sam Bradford will do that to you).  He wasn't.  He’s physically brittle,  emotionally immature and his envy of Nick Foles turned him into a bad teammate.  

If he's so talented why did he flop in Indy and Washington?  The Colts owner publicly ran him out of town and the Commanders are playing better behind Taylor Heinicke. So where's all the talent?  

Lots of guys can throw.a great ball but talent is the ability to do it at the highest level.  Comparing Wentz to Mahomes is like comparing a Honda to a Harley.  

Again, you didn't understand what i wrote, and you want to have a different discussion. You want to talk about injuries and the mental aspect of his game, which have nothing to do with what i posted.

3 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

I woke up this morning thinking it was 7am but realized it was only 6.  Things change and people are sometimes incorrect in their assessments.  At one point, we all thought/hoped Wentz was, finally, the franchise QB we’d been waiting for (Sam Bradford will do that to you).  He wasn't.  He’s physically brittle,  emotionally immature and his envy of Nick Foles turned him into a bad teammate.  

If he's so talented why did he flop in Indy and Washington?  The Colts owner publicly ran him out of town and the Commanders are playing better behind Taylor Heinicke. So where's all the talent?  

Lots of guys can throw.a great ball but talent is the ability to do it at the highest level.  Comparing Wentz to Mahomes is like comparing a Honda to a Harley.  

I don't agree with @jsb235 about anything, really, but you're not getting what he's saying.

He's right.

Just now, Swoop said:

I don't agree with @jsb235 about anything, really, but you're not getting what he's saying.

He's right.

No, I get it.  He says Wentz has - present tense - as much talent as Mahomes and Allen.  He goes on to say Hurts has comparatively little talent.  

I disagree on both counts.  If he means coming out of college we all thought he was the next Peyton Manning, then say so.  But if Wentz has the talent the OP says he does, he wouldn’t be on his 3rd team in 3 years and about to wash out of the league. He had potential, but never came close  to reaching it.

And Hurts is more mobile than Wentz could ever dream about and throws dimes as well as any QB in the NFL.  Not one team would take Wentz over Hurts, another indication the so-called talent gap between them is made up.

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

No, I get it.  He says Wentz has - present tense - as much talent as Mahomes and Allen.  He goes on to say Hurts has comparatively little talent.  

I disagree on both counts.  If he means coming out of college we all thought he was the next Peyton Manning, then say so.  But if Wentz has the talent the OP says he does, he wouldn’t be on his 3rd team in 3 years and about to wash out of the league. He had potential, but never came close  to reaching it.

And Hurts is more mobile than Wentz could ever dream about and throws dimes as well as any QB in the NFL.  Not one team would take Wentz over Hurts, another indication the so-called talent gap between them is made up.

You are definitely missing this one.  If Wentz and Hurts were in the same draft class, which would of went first? Wentz. Why? His physical tool set.  He could of went first overall that year and nobody would of batted an eye at it. Wentz since the 19' season has been a hard watch, but to ignore what he came into the league with and what his peak was comes with bias. Recency bias is a real thing much like many had 2017 when Wentz was an MVP candidate. Wentz could bomb it and had mobility. You don't need backup rb stats to prove you are mobile. Now that Carson's knee has been junked and he can't rely on it, the flaws in his game can't be covered such as poor pocket awareness. If you are comparing them today, of course nobody takes Wentz, but physical tools Wentz has them all....now that gray matter between his ears on the other hand is about as useless as opinions on a football message board 

13 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

You are definitely missing this one.  If Wentz and Hurts were in the same draft class, which would of went first? Wentz. Why? His physical tool set.  He could of went first overall that year and nobody would of batted an eye at it. Wentz since the 19' season has been a hard watch, but to ignore what he came into the league with and what his peak was comes with bias. Recency bias is a real thing much like many had 2017 when Wentz was an MVP candidate. Wentz could bomb it and had mobility. You don't need backup rb stats to prove you are mobile. Now that Carson's knee has been junked and he can't rely on it, the flaws in his game can't be covered such as poor pocket awareness. If you are comparing them today, of course nobody takes Wentz, but physical tools Wentz has them all....now that gray matter between his ears on the other hand is about as useless as opinions on a football message board 

So hypothetically Wentz would have been drafted ahead of Hurts had they both been drafted in 2016?  Uh, ooookaaay…

Carson Wentz circa 2016 was a great idea. 

22 hours ago, eagle45 said:

OK, I've obviously done a 180 on Hurts, but let's keep it reasonable.  

Wentz IS on the Mahomes/Allen pure physical talent spectrum.  Carson Wentz was everyone's #1 comp for Josh Allen from a raw tools perspective when Allen came out.  He has an enormous arm, great athleticism, elusiveness in the pocket, and can make every throw.

One huge physical issue with Wentz is his release/mechanics.  He loops around and has a very delayed delivery.  Mahomes and Allen have compact, effortless releases.  That problem has crushed Wentz, is part of his fumble tendency, and neutralizes his excellent natural arm strength.

Then there is the hero ball, which has been well debated.

Hurts, at his best (which is really, really good lately), is more on the Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott spectrum.  Athletic, mobile, not a big arm, great touch downfield.  2 of those 3 guys I just mentioned are HOF QBs with lots of SB titles, so there's no shame in that.

But it's 2 completely different levels of raw tools.

Yeah I think this is fair. 

I was never a huge Wentz fan, although I supported him as the Eagles QB. I did with reluctance, at the time, think it was the right thing to do to go with him over Foles after 2018. My heart said Foles but my head said Wentz (probably both wrong).

People on here will know I've been a big supporter of Hurts. I also hated the pick at the time. I was desperate for the Eagles to add talent to the D. I personally thought Wentz had shown a lot in the last few games of 2019. I didn't buy for a minute that Hurts was drafted to be a backup/gadget player. It was clear he was drafted as a Plan B. Wentz responded in the worst way possible. He was up against it for sure in 2020 with the supporting cast, but the Hurts pick clearly had a big detrimental effect on him. Big contrast to how Rodgers played after they drafted Love.

There is clearly something wrong beyond the issues regarding release/hero ball etc. On the face of it he wasn't that bad for the Colts last season. But they couldn't wait to get rid of him. In any event he is no longer our problem.

Hurts has played better than we could have hoped for this year. He's going to and should get his contract. Hopefully him and Howie can work it out so that we can continue to surround him with talent as far as possible. 

59 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I was never a huge Wentz fan, although I supported him as the Eagles QB. I did with reluctance, at the time, think it was the right thing to do to go with him over Foles after 2018. My heart said Foles but my head said Wentz (probably both wrong).

I was a big Wentz fan and really thought he was the long term future. And it was the right decision I think to pick him over Foles in 2018. Ultimately neither are good enough to be long term franchise QBs for different reasons. 

I think we all loved Wentz at one point or another. Things change, there is no harm in recognising that 2022 Wentz is not a patch on 2017 Wentz.

As far as Hurts and his contract goes, there's a really important question to ask - is he more important, in totality, than the players we would by necessity have to move on from, in their totality. I think that sooner or later, coaches are going to move on from loading up QB contracts, and start prioritising other areas, such as offensive line and defensive line. Most QBs who reach the NFL would be really good if they have a really good offensive line. There's no point loading up on 40m a year for a QB if he has no time to make his reads or his throws. But I don't think it will happen yet.

I suspect Hurts will get paid handsomely, and he will have earned it. But it will be to the detriment of the overall team performance. And that's not his fault, and we should bear that in mind in two or three years. See also: Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Drew Brees. And yes, Brady is an outlier. One day, a QB will look around and say: how much money do I need? Do I want more I could never spend, or do I want titles?

16 minutes ago, kiwinavega said:

I think we all loved Wentz at one point or another. Things change, there is no harm in recognising that 2022 Wentz is not a patch on 2017 Wentz.

As far as Hurts and his contract goes, there's a really important question to ask - is he more important, in totality, than the players we would by necessity have to move on from, in their totality. I think that sooner or later, coaches are going to move on from loading up QB contracts, and start prioritising other areas, such as offensive line and defensive line. Most QBs who reach the NFL would be really good if they have a really good offensive line. There's no point loading up on 40m a year for a QB if he has no time to make his reads or his throws. But I don't think it will happen yet.

I suspect Hurts will get paid handsomely, and he will have earned it. But it will be to the detriment of the overall team performance. And that's not his fault, and we should bear that in mind in two or three years. See also: Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Drew Brees. And yes, Brady is an outlier. One day, a QB will look around and say: how much money do I need? Do I want more I could never spend, or do I want titles?

That's a lot of wishful thinking 

It is wishful thinking, I agree. But at some point, teams will have to start leaning on young QBs on rookie deals. Surely, coaches and GMs will realise those mega deals in a salary cap era are not good management. What good is it having a perennial QB like Aaron Rodgers if you only get one title?

Edited for typos, apologies

If Hurts insists on getting max dollars, I can see a scenario where Howie pays him top market money with an exit after 3ish years.

In that case, look for Howie to pick another Rd 2/3 QB for the factory to eventually take over.

1 minute ago, kiwinavega said:

It is wishful thinking, I agree. But at some point, teams will either start leaning on young QBs on rookie deals. Surely, coaches and GMs will realise those mega deals in a salary cap era are not good management. What good is it having a perennial QB like Aaron Rodgers if you only get one title?

You have a good point. We’ve built a good team around hurts and he’s good enough to give us a chance every year with talent like this. No team scored more than 21 on us since week 1

if he takes top QB money we will have a lot of holes on the team to be exploited. In Howie I trust tho 

4 minutes ago, Peacekeeper said:

You have a good point. We’ve built a good team around hurts and he’s good enough to give us a chance every year with talent like this. No team scored more than 21 on us since week 1

if he takes top QB money we will have a lot of holes on the team to be exploited. In Howie I trust tho 

Exactly. A massive QB contract is an ineffective luxury that doesn't secure results.

To elaborate:

Brees - one Lombardi

Wilson - one Lombardi

Rodgers - one Lombardi

Having a great QB, if anything, stymies your team's chances for success. A middle of the road QB, on a team friendly contract that allows you to strengthen elsewhere, might just be the future.

2 minutes ago, kiwinavega said:

To elaborate:

Brees - one Lombardi

Wilson - one Lombardi

Rodgers - one Lombardi

Having a great QB, if anything, stymies your team's chances for success. A middle of the road QB, on a team friendly contract that allows you to strengthen elsewhere, might just be the future.

I see your points but I don't think that happens anytime soon. While those guys only got one Lombardi they still make the playoffs almost every year. Where teams like the browns and lions have been perennial losers because they can't ever get a good enough QB.  

Matt Stafford says hello

15 minutes ago, kiwinavega said:

Matt Stafford says hello

Fair enough... Still ain't gonna happen 

After today, Hurts is in the driver's seat for the MVP

2 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said:

After today, Hurts is in the driver's seat for the MVP

He's just got to keep going and keep doing what he's been doing. He's not a great great chance. 

13 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said:

After today, Hurts is in the driver's seat for the MVP

Psst what are you talking about!?! According to @downundermike he was shaky his last game because he missed six passes!

4 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Psst what are you talking about!?! According to @downundermike he was shaky his last game because he missed six passes!

 

Quit twisting my words.  I said he was "a little erratic early in the game"

MVP Race Update:

1st - Jalen Hurts

Fighting for 2nd through 4th - Mahomes, Allen, and Tua

Also in the race - King Henry and Lamar 

Cheetah might have the stats but he'll never have the votes.

Rodgers is currently around 270th

Just now, SkippyX said:

Fighting for 2nd through 4th - Mahomes, Allen, and Tua

Also in the race - King Henry and Lamar 

I don't know Tua may either be leading the way or very much in second place right now... He's having a very very good year. Huge in fact. 

Just now, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I don't know Tua may either be leading the way or very much in second place right now... He's having a very very good year. Huge in fact. 

He missed too much time (2 1/2 games). He's in the race but not in the lead.

That may matter less in December if he stays healthy and wins in Buffalo but he's not #1 now.