4 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Well if he runs a 4.38 he'll only be the 43rd player to do it in the last week😉

Yeah, at the rate we're seeing these 4.3's and 4'2's it's as if the prospects were handed the stop watch and asked to time themselves.

Awful awful 

 

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

Perfect! who needs the 6-6 245 guy with a 10 ft wingspan who can run a 4.4.  Give me that guy from Chile!

5 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

I don't know where the "consensus' builder came from. I've often referred to Howie as an information gatherer as opposed to talent evaluator but I would not equate my definition of information gatherer to consensus builder - they are not the same. No GM makes decisions in a vacuum - they're all consensus builders to a degree. I think I have more confidence in Howie - particularly this year - than most. I look at the 2013 drafts and the 2016 drafts - both good drafts. 2013 was after AR left and Howie had full control - Chip had yet to assert himself. 2016 was a similar situation. When Howie relied more on his staff and scouts they drafted well - as the coaches gained more influence the wheels started to wobble.

I also think to understand what went wrong you have to look at picks individually instead of just a blanket one persons fault for everything. I used to think that Joe Douglas  influenced the JJAW pick but now we know that Lurie had his fingers on it to some degree whether intentional or not. 

That's an afan defense for Howie. Howie isn't at fault, its all the people around him who confuse him and pull him in different directions.  Of course, that just means that he has no compass of his own and no philosophy.  A 'real GM' has a philosophy for football, for the type of player they want in their organization, for the type of coach they want in charge, they have a philosophy and they stick to it, for right or wrong, there is a method to everything they do, each move fits within that philosophy and can be understood.  AR for all his faults while he was here, had a clear philosophy of how to build an offense and defense, how to draft players that fit that mold and you could set your clock by it.  He learned a lot during his time here and went to KC and it works well there.  There, he's got a trusted talent evaluator making the draft choices for him, but they are on the same page philosophically.  

Meanwhile, Howie has no strict philosophy to anchor him.  He just moves with the shifting sands... no real rhyme or reason.  They move in one direction and it fails, so they over correct in the opposite direction to fix the problem.  The end result is a mix-matched set of talent on the roster, no cohesion and no overarching philosophy.   He tries to ride the hottest new trends, even though, everyone knows that trends come and go and are never static.  Once you align your self with a trend, by the time you are well positioned, the trend has been superseded and its time to move in another direction.  OR... you have your own trend, and you just build towards that.  

 

I'd love to hear Howie try to explain his philosophy for building a roster.   But, he can't do it.  He doesn't have one.  He can't tell you what he looks for in a player, a coach, or anything else.  He surrounds himself with so many different opinions, that he picks and chooses from as the whim strikes.  So would say that he's flexible.  What I think he is is spineless.  He has no structure to his understanding of the game and how to organize a roster.   2017 was absolutely a fluke.  Nothing that has come either before or after it looks like what happened that year to build that roster.  It was complete luck... it was the prayer of so many generations of Eagles' fans finally being answered.  But, it had nothing to do with Howie's ability to construct a roster. 

Howie has had the benefit of being in the same division of some of the worst front offices in the NFL.  The Giants are constantly lost with Gettlemen, the Washington Fraud Team has the world's most meddlesome owner running things, and Dallas has Skeletor meddling.   So, the Eagles haven't had the highest bar to have to surpass to be a playoff squad in certain years.  And yet... even with that, the Eagles under Howie haven't been able to win the division in back to back years since AR ran things... back in 2003-2004.    And in the last 10 years, 4 times, the division has been won by a team with 9 wins or fewer (last year being the worst ever with only 7 wins needed to win the division).    And only twice in the last 10 years has a non-division winner made the playoffs from the NFC East.    (For comparison purposes, the 10 years before that (2001-2010), an NFC East team got a Wild Card spot in 7 of those years, including 2 years where 2 teams got Wild Card spots!  The 10 years before that (1991-2000)... 8 years had an NFC East Wild Card team, and 1 year had 2 teams.  The ten years before that (1981-1990) it happened 8 times as well.  3 of those years had 2 Wild Card teams.)     So, what does this mean?   It means that Howie's track record of 'playoff births' has coincided with a period of a very weak NFC East, compared to its history.   And getting into the playoffs at a mere 9-7 record in 2018 and 2019 was fun while it lasted, but realistically pointed to the fact that the team was weak... yeah, I know... injuries... blah blah blah.

Pitts ran a 4.44 and has a longer wingspan than any NFL WR/TE. Lock him in top 6.

12 minutes ago, CaliEagle said:

I agree. Not enough production to justify him at 12.  If you are going to spend a first rounder at 12 on DE, they should have the production and athleticism.  These first round DEs would go in the 2nd round in most drafts. 

The last 5 drafts the 12 pick have been.

Ruggs, LB rashan grey,  

DT vitaVae, deshaun watson and Sheldon Rankins.

Watson is the only one that's been really good.

I don't even know who rashan Gray is???

So I'm not expecting an all pro at 12 though it would be nice.

Marshall Jr. is really starting to grow on me. I didn’t pay much attention to him before TBH though.

22 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I agree to appoint, I think Howie sometimes is judged too harshly and I've done my fair share of howie bashing and to that end a person is only as good as those he surrounds himself with and as good as he allows those people to contribute 

Letti g Lurie have any say in personnel de isions or at least a significant amount is setting one self up to fail but what's he supposed to do Lurie is the freaking owner so I guess I can cut howie some slack for that 

That's a pretty lame defense for the guy who is responsible for hiring the people he surrounds himself with.  The GM hires his underlings.  If the GM has bad people around him, its because he hired the wrong people.    Sort of like when a HC fails, he can't (normally) blame the assistant coaches around him, because under normal circumstances (recent events with this football team notwithstanding) it is the HC's job to hire his assistants. 

1 minute ago, Utebird said:

The last 5 drafts the 12 pick have been.

Ruggs, LB rashan grey,  

DT vitaVae, deshaun watson and Sheldon Rankins.

Watson is the only one that's been really good.

I don't even know who rashan Gray is???

So I'm not expecting an all pro at 12 though it would be nice.

Vea is arguably Bucs most important D player , he is a stud

2 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

Not getting shuttles for Marshall is a bit disappointing. We already knew he could run in a straight-line. How shifty is he?

Just now, RLC said:

Not getting shuttles for Marshall is a bit disappointing. We already knew he could run in a straight-line. How shifty is he?

I was hoping to see JOK run , but hammy wouldn’t let him

5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's an afan defense for Howie. Howie isn't at fault, its all the people around him who confuse him and pull him in different directions.  Of course, that just means that he has no compass of his own and no philosophy.  A 'real GM' has a philosophy for football, for the type of player they want in their organization, for the type of coach they want in charge, they have a philosophy and they stick to it, for right or wrong, there is a method to everything they do, each move fits within that philosophy and can be understood.  AR for all his faults while he was here, had a clear philosophy of how to build an offense and defense, how to draft players that fit that mold and you could set your clock by it.  He learned a lot during his time here and went to KC and it works well there.  There, he's got a trusted talent evaluator making the draft choices for him, but they are on the same page philosophically.  

Meanwhile, Howie has no strict philosophy to anchor him.  He just moves with the shifting sands... no real rhyme or reason.  They move in one direction and it fails, so they over correct in the opposite direction to fix the problem.  The end result is a mix-matched set of talent on the roster, no cohesion and no overarching philosophy.   He tries to ride the hottest new trends, even though, everyone knows that trends come and go and are never static.  Once you align your self with a trend, by the time you are well positioned, the trend has been superseded and its time to move in another direction.  OR... you have your own trend, and you just build towards that.  

 

I'd love to hear Howie try to explain his philosophy for building a roster.   But, he can't do it.  He doesn't have one.  He can't tell you what he looks for in a player, a coach, or anything else.  He surrounds himself with so many different opinions, that he picks and chooses from as the whim strikes.  So would say that he's flexible.  What I think he is is spineless.  He has no structure to his understanding of the game and how to organize a roster.   2017 was absolutely a fluke.  Nothing that has come either before or after it looks like what happened that year to build that roster.  It was complete luck... it was the prayer of so many generations of Eagles' fans finally being answered.  But, it had nothing to do with Howie's ability to construct a roster. 

Howie has had the benefit of being in the same division of some of the worst front offices in the NFL.  The Giants are constantly lost with Gettlemen, the Washington Fraud Team has the world's most meddlesome owner running things, and Dallas has Skeletor meddling.   So, the Eagles haven't had the highest bar to have to surpass to be a playoff squad in certain years.  And yet... even with that, the Eagles under Howie haven't been able to win the division in back to back years since AR ran things... back in 2003-2004.    And in the last 10 years, 4 times, the division has been won by a team with 9 wins or fewer (last year being the worst ever with only 7 wins needed to win the division).    And only twice in the last 10 years has a non-division winner made the playoffs from the NFC East.    (For comparison purposes, the 10 years before that (2001-2010), an NFC East team got a Wild Card spot in 7 of those years, including 2 years where 2 teams got Wild Card spots!  The 10 years before that (1991-2000)... 8 years had an NFC East Wild Card team, and 1 year had 2 teams.  The ten years before that (1981-1990) it happened 8 times as well.  3 of those years had 2 Wild Card teams.)     So, what does this mean?   It means that Howie's track record of 'playoff births' has coincided with a period of a very weak NFC East, compared to its history.   And getting into the playoffs at a mere 9-7 record in 2018 and 2019 was fun while it lasted, but realistically pointed to the fact that the team was weak... yeah, I know... injuries... blah blah blah.

I've always admired the way the steelers build their teams, they have a clear vision from top to bottom of who they want and what type of players and coaches and they go out and execute that vision and it's a vision that been around for decades and has led to them winner ng the most Superbowls 

Meanwhile like you say Howie is a 80sday time soap opera.

Nick Farabaugh

 

@FarabaughFB

·

1m

 

 

Full testing for Notre Dame TE Tommy Tremble per

@JimNagy_SB

: 6’3”, 241 40: 4.64 / 4.60 Vert: 36.5” Broad: 10’2” BP: 20 reps That’s a great day for him. Tested explosive and ran well.

I think the problem started when AR first pushed for personnel power, then went "south" when his son died, he's the one who became incoherent (moving from a WCO ball control offense to a quick strike offense lead by DeSean). Then they got infatuated with Chip, and we know where that went. Pederson was the fix for Chip, and it worked as long as Reich was there, going back to the WCO roots (involving backs in the passing game, ball control, etc). Reich leaves and Doug doesn't want a strong OC, then falls in love with the 4 deep vertical scheme.

Sirianni as a Reich discipline brings the Eagle full circle, while there are a number of other concepts he picked up, at heart Reich is similar to early AR, ball control (Reich runs a bit more), short passing game, emphasis on OL and pass protection. So after being tempted by a strumpet, and a good girl who went bad, Howie is returning to the "girl next door."

On defense, Gannon continues the 4-3 tradition, but with some differences from JJ and Schwartz. Still dependent on the DL, more emphasis on LBs (like JJ), cover 2 with cover 1 and 3 concepts, and some Zimmer twists. So while a change, there's more continuity the past two decades on this side of the ball.

Thank god. We couldn’t have afforded Flacco otherwise. 

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

Oh the horse manure here.  Ward was the number one receiver because he catches the ball and runs precise routes and was the targeted receiver.  Carson seemed most comfortable with shorter routes but his rate of targets did not decrease with Hurts.  He can be improved upon and should be with the slots available this year.  But he is the best hands catcher of the WRs and TEs on this team.  He does not just stand in the right place and only catch balls when someone forgets to cover him.  
 

I sometimes wonder if catching the ball, especially with hands is not a factor you favor for a WR.  Watkins and Hightower have really nice speed but they are basket catchers primarily.  Need to improve on hand eye coordination.

 

You basically just regurgitated what I said about Ward, not sure why you called it horse manure then.  

I'm far from in love with Watkins and Hightower.  In fact, I think Hightower sucks.  

Watkins is a scratch and sniff lottery ticket who has something (both quickness and speed) to work with.  He needs help with everything else.  Chances are he never pans out.

I sometimes wonder if getting open, creating space, and being a key part of a non-dysfunctional passing offense are not factors you favor for a WR.  Just because someone is a hands catcher doesn't mean they have everything you need at WR.

SOMEONE has to make plays on the offense.  Not every pass completion can be a 3 yard dig on 3rd and 8.

 

35 minutes ago, Utebird said:

The last 5 drafts the 12 pick have been.

Ruggs, LB rashan grey,  

DT vitaVae, deshaun watson and Sheldon Rankins.

Watson is the only one that's been really good.

I don't even know who rashan Gray is???

So I'm not expecting an all pro at 12 though it would be nice.

Rashan Gary. He's good on the way to better.

 

45 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

 

Meanwhile, Howie has no strict philosophy to anchor him.  He just moves with the shifting sands... no real rhyme or reason.  They move in one direction and it fails, so they over correct in the opposite direction to fix the problem. 

This is the most concerning part about Howie.

Under Howie's leadership, the Eagles have been notorious for drafting bad athletes early as they prioritized either high motors or pure college statistics.  It resulted in a lot of busts and THE slowest, most sludge-like offense in the NFL.  That was thrown in his face.  It was impossible to ignore.

Enter 2020.  He went against the closest thing he ever had to a vision and drafted ALL athletes.  And he got it all wrong.  One of the raw freak athletes is a 4-3 off-ball LB.  That's a read & react position.  If there's one position where pure, raw, downhill explosion doesn't get you much, it's 4-3 LB.  So we got a raw athlete who was truly a horrible football player as a rookie.

At WR, he got 3 bad WRs with great 40's...Hightower/Goodwin/Watkins.  So now everyone can say that speed doesn't matter at WR.  In every prior year, we pass up better, more successful athletes at WR in favor of the safer, more productive guys...and get burnt for it.  This year, Howie changes course and drafts the riskier athlete (Reagor) over the safer, less explosive, more productive guy (Jefferson).  I applauded that because it was such a breath of fresh air.  But he got burnt for that too.  

He just can't get it right.  But the all-athlete 2020 draft was a radical departure from his typical philosophy.  It was also one of the worst looking immediate return draft classes he's ever had.  

So I'd expect him to rapidly revert back to his more common tendency of drafting high floor low ceiling, low risk prospect...Derek Barnett types to rebuild us in the image of an 8-8 team.

48 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

   2017 was absolutely a fluke.  Nothing that has come either before or after it looks like what happened that year to build that roster.  It was complete luck... it was the prayer of so many generations of Eagles' fans finally being answered. 

   And getting into the playoffs at a mere 9-7 record in 2018 and 2019 was fun while it lasted, but realistically pointed to the fact that the team was weak... yeah, I know... injuries... blah blah blah.

I actually agree with most of your post but you lost me here - and you were doing so well. Doug Pederson called it a Championship roster before the season started. The only thing lucky about 2017 is that the Eagles didn't sustain any crippling injuries. They lost Peters but after a couple rough starts they were able to make it work with Big V. The most important player - Torrey Smith - stayed healthy.

There is a lot to unpack to explain the failures of the years that have followed and as the GM Howie is responsible whether he is to blame or not. But the Eagles in 2017 were no more lucky than any other Superb Owl winner. You think the Ravens win the Owl if Jamal Lewis had gotten injured in 2001. Does any team win the Superb Owl with their back up QB - oh wait - the Eagles aren't the first - you think the Giants just feel lucky that they won with Jeff Hostettler? You think the Dolphins just feel lucky going undefeated in 1972 with backup Earl Morrall at QB for the bulk of the season including playoffs? Technically, Brady was the backup when he won his first Owl. And I say they were lucky - that Bledsoe was injured.

In the 2018 AFC championship game Brady threw an interception late in the game that would have sealed it for the Chiefs. But Dee Ford lined up offside and you can't give Brady a mulligan. That's still luck - you think Patriots fans feel like they were just lucky to win that one? A week earlier Foles is driving the Eagles late in the divisional game against the Saints - ball slips through Alshons hands and into the hands of a Saints defender - would have been a first down - instead it's a game ending interception - where is the Saints defender offside for the Eagles? There is always luck involved but to say it is all luck dismisses all the work put in to get to that point. The double doink is another example. It's just a missed field goal. Missed field goals have cost Superb Owls - do think the winners of those Owls are saying they were just lucky to win that one?

You can't just dismiss the injuries of 2019 and 2020 as if they are simply a footnote - they were crippling. AFan might (MIGHT) be overly apologetic for Howie but if so than you are the Anti AFan. Most of your argument is sound - but then you go off the edge to unreasonable criticism. 

There are bad-luck injuries...and then there are injuries to Jason Peters, Desean Jackson, Alshon Jeffery, and other players over 30 that are comical the Eagles didn't see coming.  It's almost as if the Eagles knew they were stuck paying their contracts anyway and said...well, let's throw them out there, let them predictably get hurt, and then say injuries screwed us.

Are we going to complain about bad luck when the right side of our OL is Nate Herbig and Matt Pryor?  And when a 34 year old Jason Kelce finally misses time, Seumalo moves to center, and we have to say that the OL has had 15 different starters with only one starter in the same position from week 1?  Is that bad luck?  

Dismissing their obvious personnel shortcomings under the guise of injuries is a lot worse than dismissing the injuries, which are not going to go away.

I have to say I’m a little surprised and impressed that we haven’t seen another Unabomber letter from @Sack that QB since Ja’Marr Chase put up that 4.38 in the 40 ....

 

I guess the day is still young 

Just now, Nivraga said:

I actually agree with most of your post but you lost me here - and you were doing so well. Doug Pederson called it a Championship roster before the season started. The only thing lucky about 2017 is that the Eagles didn't sustain any crippling injuries. They lost Peters but after a couple rough starts they were able to make it work with Big V. The most important player - Torrey Smith - stayed healthy.

I didn't say that roster was a fluke.  I said the way it was built was a fluke.  Howie has NEVER before or after built a roster like that.  Lots of 1 year older vets on minimal deals.  Not a big splash move among them.  Chris Long, Patrick Robinson, Torry Smith, LaGarrette Blount, Alshon Jeffery... not a big dollar commitment, not a long contract commitment.  No investment of draft capital to bring them in either.   

They had a LOT of injuries in 2017, but they had DEPTH.  Something they have not had since.  Peters was backed up by Big V, who was very good at LT that year.  They lost CBs left and right that year as well.  Rookie Rasul Douglas was forced into the starting lineup, Robinson was forced outside for a bit, etc.  And then they lost their starting QB... but had the streaky Nick Foles, who caught lightning in a bottle and they rode that to the parade.  But, Foles was NOT good against Atlanta, and it took him almost a full quarter to get warmed up against the Vikings.   The INT returned for a TD was really the catalyst to it all (that play being made by Chris Long - hitting the arm of Keenum, and Patrick Robinson - two of the unheralded moves of the offseason that were absolutely crucial to the success of the team that year).  

 

Just now, Nivraga said:

There is a lot to unpack to explain the failures of the years that have followed and as the GM Howie is responsible whether he is to blame or not. But the Eagles in 2017 were no more lucky than any other Superb Owl winner. You think the Ravens win the Owl if Jamal Lewis had gotten injured in 2001. Does any team win the Superb Owl with their back up QB - oh wait - the Eagles aren't the first - you think the Giants just feel lucky that they won with Jeff Hostettler? You think the Dolphins just feel lucky going undefeated in 1972 with backup Earl Morrall at QB for the bulk of the season including playoffs? In the 2018 AFC championship game Brady threw an interception late in the game that would sealed it for the Chiefs. But Dee Ford lined up offside and you can't give Brady a mulligan. That's still luck - you think Patriots fans feel like they were just lucky to win that one? A week earlier Foles is driving the Eagles late in the divisional game against the Saints - ball slips through Alshons hands and into the hands of a Saints defender - would have been a first down - instead it's a game ending interception - where is the Saints defender offside for the Eagles? There is always luck involved but to say it is all luck dismisses all the work put in to get to that point. The double doink is another example. It's just a missed field goal. Missed field goals have cost Superb Owls - do think the winners of those Owls are saying they were just lucky to win that one?

You can't just dismiss the injuries of 2019 and 2020 as if they are simply a footnote - they were crippling. AFan might (MIGHT) be overly apologetic for Howie but if so than you are the Anti AFan. Most of your argument is sound - but then you go off the edge to unreasonable criticism. 

You completely misinterpreted what I said about the fluke of 2017.  The fluke was in the roster construction.  They have never before, nor since, built the team with 1 year free agent signings that almost all worked out perfectly.  Each one was literally a brilliant signing.  Long, Robinson, Blount, Smith, Jeffery... trading to flip 3rd round picks to land Timmy Jernigan... even the in season trade for Ajayi.   Every single move was just about perfect.  But... other than a few other in-season trades... they haven't done the same style of roster building to recreate the 2017 season, and they'd never done it before.  That was what makes it the outlier.   So, you can say that I've gone off the edge to unreasonable if you want.  But, my stance that Howie veered off course from what he did well in 2017 (and only did in 2017), has been resolute.  My comments about 2017 being a 'fluke' had absolutely nothing to do with what happened on the field, and everything to do with how the team was constructed.   It's almost like it was put together by someone else entirely (Joe Douglas?  Lots of moves for players that he was connected to...) And then came 2018 and beyond... At least Mike Wallace was just another 1 year contract.   After that Howie got desperate and made foolish moves like trading for and then signing to a 'long-term', big money deal for Desean Jackson, as an example.   (And while he is overpaid in SF with his new contract, he still has a bigger hit to the Eagles' salary cap than SF this year.)

 

And if you think that afan only 'might' be overly apologetic for Howie, then you must not be the same Nivraga as on the old board.  He was around long enough to see afan's defense of Howie has never waned, not even for a moment.  

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's a pretty lame defense for the guy who is responsible for hiring the people he surrounds himself with.  The GM hires his underlings.  If the GM has bad people around him, its because he hired the wrong people.    Sort of like when a HC fails, he can't (normally) blame the assistant coaches around him, because under normal circumstances (recent events with this football team notwithstanding) it is the HC's job to hire his assistants. 

Yet the assistant coaches are always the ones to go before the head.

Im not using it as an excuse um saying Howie is either bad at surrounding himself with good voices or he's not good at listening to those voices, I think it's more the latter.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

They had a LOT of injuries in 2017, but they had DEPTH.  Something they have not had since.  Peters was backed up by Big V, who was very good at LT that year.

Everything else is pretty spot on except for this part. 

Vaitai was straight-up GARBAGE in 2017.  Absolute dumpster fire.  He had one good game against Everson Griffin in that Vikings game, but otherwise he had to be bailed out entirely too much.  Thank God for Detroit