August 16, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, The Norseman said: Take a breath. I'm simply trying to answer the question of why this often cited, never produced poll might be accurate. If you want to have a separate discussion as to how Trump blew the election I'd be happy to have it and we'd probably agree on most things. However, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. I just posted it for you. Look back 2 posts and enjoy.
August 16, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, vikas83 said: https://news.yahoo.com/poll-two-thirds-of-republicans-still-think-the-2020-election-was-rigged-165934695.html Thanks. So its a Yahoo! poll and the actual number is 66%, not 70% but still high. Also interesting that 28% of independents and 3% of Democrats felt the election was "stolen" too. I can't find the actual question that was asked but I wonder if the word "stolen" was actually used. No way I could agree to that.
August 16, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, The Norseman said: Thanks. So its a Yahoo! poll and the actual number is 66%, not 70% but still high. Also interesting that 28% of independents and 3% of Democrats felt the election was "stolen" too. I can't find the actual question that was asked but I wonder if the word "stolen" was actually used. No way I could agree to that. It was a YouGov poll. Which is a real outfit. But keep on deflecting.
August 16, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, mayanh8 said: https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_062121/ https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2021-05/Ipsos Reuters Topline Write up- The Big Lie - 17 May thru 19 May 2021.pdf Now you can stop with the "never produced poll" lie. This one says 63% today...but it was as high as 69%. Trending down as no evidence is produced. When all Republican identifiers and leaners are combined, the number who believe Biden won only because of voter fraud has been fairly stable (63% now, 64% in March, 69% in January, and 66% in November).
August 16, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, vikas83 said: It was a YouGov poll. Which is a real outfit. But keep on deflecting. Wasn't mean to be a deflection. But it was a Yahoo! News poll...it was just administered by YouGov. The Yahoo News survey was conducted by YouGov using a nationally representative sample of 1,552 U.S. adults interviewed online from July 30 to Aug. 2, 2021
August 16, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, The Norseman said: This one says 63% today...but it was as high as 69%. Trending down as no evidence is produced. When all Republican identifiers and leaners are combined, the number who believe Biden won only because of voter fraud has been fairly stable (63% now, 64% in March, 69% in January, and 66% in November). Ok, so does the point of all of those posts that referenced the poll and cited "70%” change at all if the number is rounded down to 60% instead of up to 70%?
August 16, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, The Norseman said: Wasn't mean to be a deflection. But it was a Yahoo! News poll...it was just administered by YouGov. The Yahoo News survey was conducted by YouGov using a nationally representative sample of 1,552 U.S. adults interviewed online from July 30 to Aug. 2, 2021 What numbers do you want to use? Beside made up ones?
August 16, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, The Norseman said: First of all the only place I've seen that poll cited is in this forum...so If someone has it, I'd like to see it. However, I think the majority of Republican's do believe that the goal posts were changed for the electoral process in 2020 as a result of Covid. This very likely helped Democrats in terms of voter turnout and helped Biden. That being said, no intelligent Republican that I know thinks that opening up voting to mail in, drop boxes etc. was the wrong thing to do under the circumstances....they're more interested in whether we keep them open post pandemic. What I'm saying is that I can see that poll being accurate if what it's really saying is that those on the right think the pandemic era changes to voting structure helped Biden and may have swung the election. I mean, Democrats biggest Achilles heel in elections is always voter turnout, so I'm not even sure this argument is debatable. But if it wasn't done illegally and it wasn't the the wrong thing to do (as it helped voters through the pandemic)...then the argument pretty much dies there, right? "Stolen" suggest illegal votes and some master plan to generate them. There has been absolutely no credible evidence of that. You are trying to put a silver lining on a turd and giving the best intentions to the big lie crowd, without real evidence. The 70% or 60% or whatever you want to call it were swayed by disinformation regarding nefarious plots of "ballot dumping"; Dominion machines controlled by jewish lasers and italian satellites; Guiliani/Powell and the whole clown show. They are NOT being that nuanced as you are pretending they are -- aww man, it was all those mail-in ballots and covid changes. No, that doesn't spur a riot. That's just post election justification to change election laws and look to your base like you are doing something.
August 17, 20214 yr 15 hours ago, Toastrel said: What numbers do you want to use? Beside made up ones? I don't want to use any numbers. Just trying to make sense of the poll. Seems like you have all seized on this one poll to justify your narrative that all Republicans are stupid, red hat wearing zealots. I'm just here to tell you that those people don't represent the greater party. But don't take my word for it....wait and see how the American people react to Biden's policies in the mid terms.
August 17, 20214 yr 16 hours ago, The Norseman said: Trump drove deregulation in the Federal government, lowered taxes and resisted federalizing decisions around Covid to give state Governor's more control. Now, before this turns into a Trump bash session, let me make it clear that I'm not making an argument that he was some amazing President. Only that these core pillars of the party seemed to persevere even through his messy presidency. I think the bulk of the country supports these ideals and I think you'll see that echoed in the mid term elections. Fair enough, I suppose. But you brought it back to Trump. Does that mean the party can't move on without him? Can these ideals exist past Trump? Trump will never admit defeat. But we all know he lost, so now what? More of the same seems likely to produce the same results. Further, Trump brought a dark cloud over the party. Where did he go wrong? Can somebody else pick up the Trump banner, rebrand it, and make it something new? Or do we have to pick a new spot to rebuild the party in a new image? Where do we go from here? More misinformation, back-door dirty politics? Or is there a better way to lead?
August 17, 20214 yr 7 minutes ago, toolg said: Fair enough, I suppose. But you brought it back to Trump. Does that mean the party can't move on without him? Can these ideals exist past Trump? Trump will never admit defeat. But we all know he lost, so now what? More of the same seems likely to produce the same results. Further, Trump brought a dark cloud over the party. Where did he go wrong? Can somebody else pick up the Trump banner, rebrand it, and make it something new? Or do we have to pick a new spot to rebuild the party in a new image? Where do we go from here? More misinformation, back-door dirty politics? Or is there a better way to lead? I think you will see the party go the other way. I see DeSantis rising, but I think the party would prefer Tim Scott or Nikki Haley. Trump is an anchor around the party's neck for sure, but he's also brought in a lot of votes and money that they badly needed...which is the real rub, I think you will see them try to shift to rebrand as the party of the working class. They aren't the party of big business anymore so I think you'll see that narrative reverse. Moreover, the American people as a whole prefer low taxes, small government and individual freedoms. In general, the conservatives and moderates in the country liked what Trump was doing they just didn't like Trump. The complete 180 from the Biden administration will hurt them in the mid terms. In general, the Republican policy formula works in concept, they just need to actually execute it. That and rebrand, remarket while getting a palatable leader up front...something the Democrats have been much better at in recent years.
August 17, 20214 yr 31 minutes ago, The Norseman said: I don't want to use any numbers. Just trying to make sense of the poll. Seems like you have all seized on this one poll to justify your narrative that all Republicans are stupid, red hat wearing zealots. I'm just here to tell you that those people don't represent the greater party. But don't take my word for it....wait and see how the American people react to Biden's policies in the mid terms. Isn't the fact that over 70 million voted for Trump in and of itself evidence that many (not all) republicans are red hatting zealots. It is clear that Trump is selfish, doesn't know doo doo about professional governance, is a con man and a grifter. He lies, exaggerates, boasts and is a bully. I don't care what his policies are (and they aren't "his" policies, he just throws bones to his base to appease) - - he doesn't belong in the Whitehouse or anywhere near government. He doesn't have the character or morals as a baseline job qualification. Any idiot can see that. He's been a joke since the 80s. Those who chose to vote for him cause, OMG, he'll appease my religious values and put in anti-abortion judges; or they think "all dems are radical BLM socialists", so I have no choice -- are just fooling themselves. You have to meet basic qualification standards, like showing a real interest in history, foreign policy, understanding governing and legislation, have empathy -- not just be a blowhard clown show for the red team. Its nice that you like conservative values like low taxes small gov't. But you can't vote for someone just for that and pretend character and governance as a whole don't matter. Are you saying you and others who voted for Trump are that shallow -- I'll vote for even Charles Manson or Bernie Madoff -- as long as they are for small gov't and low taxes? Really??? And yes, Trump isn't Manson or Madoff -- but you get the point (and he's probably not that far from Madoff). The President is supposed to be President for the COUNTRY -- not one side. Maybe that's the problem - they don't see that.
August 17, 20214 yr @The Norseman laughs at a response (but provides no actual response) when he can't admit he's wrong. Thanks Norse. I understand. I'll take your laugh emoji as an admission that you agree with what I posted.
August 17, 20214 yr 38 minutes ago, The Norseman said: I don't want to use any numbers. Just trying to make sense of the poll. Seems like you have all seized on this one poll to justify your narrative that all Republicans are stupid, red hat wearing zealots. I'm just here to tell you that those people don't represent the greater party. But don't take my word for it....wait and see how the American people react to Biden's policies in the mid terms. Not stupid. Deluded and insane. Basically, they are flat earthers.
August 17, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, Toastrel said: Not stupid. Deluded and insane. Basically, they are flat earthers. Or like @The Norseman who pretends there is some middle high ground when it comes to Trump. There isn't. Stop pretending. You know he's a joke and your "policy" rationale doesn't fly.
August 17, 20214 yr 43 minutes ago, The Norseman said: I don't want to use any numbers. Just trying to make sense of the poll. Seems like you have all seized on this one poll to justify your narrative that all Republicans are stupid, red hat wearing zealots. I'm just here to tell you that those people don't represent the greater party. But don't take my word for it....wait and see how the American people react to Biden's policies in the mid terms. Are you being willfully ignorant? It's far more than just one poll. Wake up, dude. Your party is dead.
August 17, 20214 yr 32 minutes ago, The Norseman said: They aren't the party of big business anymore They've literally manipulated the tax code so the largest corporations don't have to pay taxes.
August 17, 20214 yr 19 minutes ago, caesar said: Isn't the fact that over 70 million voted for Trump in and of itself evidence that many (not all) republicans are red hatting zealots. It is clear that Trump is selfish, doesn't know doo doo about professional governance, is a con man and a grifter. He lies, exaggerates, boasts and is a bully. I don't care what his policies are (and they aren't "his" policies, he just throws bones to his base to appease) - - he doesn't belong in the Whitehouse or anywhere near government. He doesn't have the character or morals as a baseline job qualification. Any idiot can see that. He's been a joke since the 80s. Those who chose to vote for him cause, OMG, he'll appease my religious values and put in anti-abortion judges; or they think "all dems are radical BLM socialists", so I have no choice -- are just fooling themselves. You have to meet basic qualification standards, like showing a real interest in history, foreign policy, understanding governing and legislation, have empathy -- not just be a blowhard clown show for the red team. Its nice that you like conservative values like low taxes small gov't. But you can't vote for someone just for that and pretend character and governance as a whole don't matter. The President is supposed to be President for the COUNTRY -- not one side. Maybe that's the problem - they don't see that. 24 minutes ago, Gannan said: They've literally manipulated the tax code so the largest corporations don't have to pay taxes. And the majority of those corporations support Democrats 😆
August 17, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, The Norseman said: And the majority of those corporations support Democrats 😆 Source? Big corporations hedge their bets and donate to both parties. Doesn't counter my argument. Republicans are plutocrats.
August 17, 20214 yr 29 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Are you being willfully ignorant? It's far more than just one poll. Wake up, dude. Your party is dead. Hahaha. Dead? 74 Million people voted Republican for a guy that many of them hated in the last election. If history has taught us anything its that these things fluctuate back and forth? Besides, Biden is making a mess of things and the country will have had enough by the mid terms.
August 17, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, The Norseman said: And the majority of those corporations support Democrats 😆 You left out something. A majority of those corporations support Democrats and Republicans. Look at the top ten corporate slush puppies: https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/biggest-donors?cycle=2020&view=fc https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/033116/top-10-corporate-contributors-trump-campaign.asp https://www.investopedia.com/top-donors-to-biden-2020-campaign-5080324 I see a lot of Blue and a lot of Red. Almost like both sides are just as corrupt!?!?!?!? NO!?!?!
August 17, 20214 yr 19 minutes ago, The Norseman said: Hahaha. Dead? 74 Million people voted Republican for a guy that many of them hated in the last election. If history has taught us anything its that these things fluctuate back and forth? Besides, Biden is making a mess of things and the country will have had enough by the mid terms. Throw any history of fluctuations out the window. Trump has no analog in history. He was a menace. An imbecile. A demented narcissist. An abject failure unlike anything we've ever seen. He turned the party into a cult of conspiracy theorists, anti-science morons, and outright racists. Forget fiscal conservatism, forget facts, forget reality, this is what the party has become. The damaged he's done will take decades to reverse. I was in denial too, and it took me a couple years to realize it after he was elected, but here you are almost 5 years later and you're still deluding yourself. So yeah, you can get on your knees and pray for reform, for some sensible candidate to waltz along and win the hearts of rubes, for a silver lining buried in mid-term elections, but you might as well pray to win the lottery. There is no appetite for anything other than whole hog trumpism in that rotting, festering corpse we used to call a political party.
August 17, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, caesar said: Or like @The Norseman who pretends there is some middle high ground when it comes to Trump. There isn't. Stop pretending. You know he's a joke and your "policy" rationale doesn't fly. The middle road is they support the policy while blind to Trump, ignorant of what he brought to the party, to what he stands for. So the problem is they are ignorant. He's right there are 74 million of them.
August 17, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, Toastrel said: You left out something. A majority of those corporations support Democrats and Republicans. Look at the top ten corporate slush puppies: https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/biggest-donors?cycle=2020&view=fc I see a lot of Blue and a lot of Red. Almost like both sides are just as corrupt!?!?!?!? NO!?!?! Those are mostly individuals
August 17, 20214 yr 58 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Throw any history of fluctuations out the window. Trump has no analog in history. He was a menace. An imbecile. A demented narcissist. An abject failure unlike anything we've ever seen. He turned the party into a cult of conspiracy theorists, anti-science morons, and outright racists. Forget fiscal conservatism, forget facts, forget reality, this is what the party has become. The damaged he's done will take decades to reverse. I was in denial too, and it took me a couple years to realize it after he was elected, but here you are almost 5 years later and you're still deluding yourself. So yeah, you can get on your knees and pray for reform, for some sensible candidate to waltz along and win the hearts of rubes, for a silver lining buried in mid-term elections, but you might as well pray to win the lottery. There is no appetite for anything other than whole hog trumpism in that rotting, festering corpse we used to call a political party. As usual your hatred for Trump deludes all logical thought about political discourse and strategy. This is the biggest Achilles heel for Democrats right now. I think you will be reminded as soon as the mid terms that outside the urban centers and the west coast people align more with conservative methodology.
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