The difference is H1N1 was the first of its kind. COVID-19 we had 1 through 18 but the WHO still couldn’t figure this out. They are the ones to blame 

5 hours ago, Gannan said:

Statins? Those have nasty side effects for some people. Lipitor kicked my a** about 15 yers ago. I ended up refusing to take it because the side effects were so bad. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-statin-linked-death-hospitalized-covid-.amp

9 hours ago, DEagle7 said:

I gave up long ago. 

8 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

The difference is H1N1 was the first of its kind. COVID-19 we had 1 through 18 but the WHO still couldn’t figure this out. They are the ones to blame 

Is this schtick, or are you confused?

9 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

H1N1 is half as contagious and 40x less deadly than COVID-19.

If you're expecting the response to be proportional or comparable between the two, you might be reaching.

How do you all keep missing this very obvious point?  Obama and Biden "did everything wrong" during H1N1 pandemic as stated by Ron Klain in clip I posted.  

For the 9,000th time I am not comparing H1N1 to Covid.  I'm saying that if the Biden camp made so many admitted mistakes for such a lesser viral threat, your arguments that he would have mopped this much more serious Covid situation up are completely baseless. 

It looks like testing results are getting backed up because seeing a lot of people mentioning that it is taking 5 days or so to get back results

27 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

How do you all keep missing this very obvious point?  Obama and Biden "did everything wrong" during H1N1 pandemic as stated by Ron Klain in clip I posted.  

For the 9,000th time I am not comparing H1N1 to Covid.  I'm saying that if the Biden camp made so many admitted mistakes for such a lesser viral threat, your arguments that he would have mopped this much more serious Covid situation up are completely baseless. 

And how many people died?

Yet they're able to do a little self reflection and admit mistakes, instead of denial.

18 minutes ago, MidMoFo said:

And how many people died?

Yet they're able to do a little self reflection and admit mistakes, instead of denial.

It doesn't matter how many died, we've already established that we're not comparing the viruses.  We're comparing the responses. 

Who's they exactly?  Ron Klain was a staffer who worked on the response team.  Its not like Biden has been out there saying they made mistakes.  He's been pretending that he would have done everything right.  

My only point in bringing any of this up was that these pandemics are near impossible to deal with correctly at every step.  Especially when the WHO is feeding you bad information about communicability.  I feel like a lot of the criticism towards Fauci, Pence and Trump is overblown for political purposes. 

9 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

It doesn't matter how many died, we've already established that we're not comparing the viruses.  We're comparing the responses. 

Who's they exactly?  Ron Klain was a staffer who worked on the response team.  Its not like Biden has been out there saying they made mistakes.  He's been pretending that he would have done everything right.  

My only point in bringing any of this up was that these pandemics are near impossible to deal with correctly at every step.  Especially when the WHO is feeding you bad information about communicability.  I feel like a lot of the criticism towards Fauci, Pence and Trump is overblown for political purposes. 

You cant fairly compare the responses to two totally different pandemics. H1N1 wasnt even a pandemic. This is such a weird comparison to me.

 

I guess we can all criticize every administration for doing nothing and no testing at all for the common cold over the last 244 years.

9 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

It doesn't matter how many died, we've already established that we're not comparing the viruses.  We're comparing the responses. 

Who's they exactly?  Ron Klain was a staffer who worked on the response team.  Its not like Biden has been out there saying they made mistakes.  He's been pretending that he would have done everything right.  

My only point in bringing any of this up was that these pandemics are near impossible to deal with correctly at every step.  Especially when the WHO is feeding you bad information about communicability.  I feel like a lot of the criticism towards Fauci, Pence and Trump is overblown for political purposes. 

And yet there are plenty of other countries that handled this response far, far, far better than Trump, with a much smaller initial spike, less death, less economic devastation and no 2nd wave.  So obviously, it's not even close to impossible to handle this without making the kind of inexcusable missteps that Trump made.  Stop acting like there's nothing he could have done differently here.  The guy's sheet the bed in the worst way.

3 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

It doesn't matter how many died, (150K+ and counting would disagree) we've already established that we're not comparing the viruses. (Because it doesn't suit your argument) We're comparing the responses. 

Who's they exactly?  Ron Klain was a staffer who worked on the response team.  Its not like Biden has been out there saying they made mistakes.  He's been pretending that he would have done everything right.  (Because he's been through it and learned from it and knows the importance of every step and how costly each mistake could be? Actually has the maturity to admit he's fallible?)

My only point in bringing any of this up was that these pandemics are near impossible to deal with correctly at every step.  Especially when the WHO is feeding you bad information about communicability.  I feel like a lot of the criticism towards Fauci, Pence and Trump is overblown for political purposes. 

At this point it doesn't even appear that Fauci is on the same team as Pence and Trump. Fauci is still there because firing him would be to politically damaging at this point. More people in the country trust Fauci over Trump when it comes to the pandemic. Which is why we have stooges like you trying to discredit him over his work with H1N1 and recommendations put out in February and March. Information changes, recommendations change, people capable of adapting understand this. Trump doesn't even speak of Covid-19 and when he does, he still thinks it's just going to disappear. No honest, intelligent person at this point would even try to compare the two, yet here you are trying to defend Trump by saying "But Obama/Biden".

 

5 minutes ago, BirdsFanBill said:

You cant fairly compare the responses to two totally different pandemics. H1N1 wasnt even a pandemic. This is such a weird comparison to me.

 

I guess we can all criticize every administration for doing nothing and no testing at all for the common cold over the last 244 years.

Why do you think H1N1 wasn't a pandemic?  It meets all the criteria from what I can see, no? 

H1N1 was the last major viral threat we faced and it was an highly infectious influenza type virus similar to Covid.  The guy running for president and criticizing the current administration's response was the second in charge at the time.  Why wouldn't we use Biden's administrations performance as a comparison?

Just because you guys don't like the history here doesn't mean its not a valid comparison. 

 

5 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Why do you think H1N1 wasn't a pandemic?  It meets all the criteria from what I can see, no? 

H1N1 was the last major viral threat we faced and it was an highly infectious influenza type virus similar to Covid.  The guy running for president and criticizing the current administration's response was the second in charge at the time.  Why wouldn't we use Biden's administrations performance as a comparison?

Just because you guys don't like the history here doesn't mean its not a valid comparison. 

 

Just because you don't like comparing the death tolls, doesn't mean it's not a factor.

6 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

I gave up long ago. 

I was feeling stubborn but even that has a limit.  And apparently that limit is "best coordination effort since WW2".

18 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

And yet there are plenty of other countries that handled this response far, far, far better than Trump, with a much smaller initial spike, less death, less economic devastation and no 2nd wave.  So obviously, it's not even close to impossible to handle this without making the kind of inexcusable missteps that Trump made.  Stop acting like there's nothing he could have done differently here.  The guy's sheet the bed in the worst way.

Don't hold your breath on waiting for a response to this. Comparing Trump's COVID response to one guy's comments on H1N1 is one million percent more relevant than looking at the results in other industrialized nations during the COVID crisis; clearly, Biden wouldn't have done the same things as every other competent leader on the planet. That's just obvious.

Do you not know how to lick boots, bro?

6 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

I was feeling stubborn but even that has a limit.  And apparently that limit is "best coordination effort since WW2".

Yep. In the end I just stopped replying. I put him on ignore for a time and then took that off and read some posts and not others but never engaged.

6 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

And yet there are plenty of other countries that handled this response far, far, far better than Trump, with a much smaller initial spike, less death, less economic devastation and no 2nd wave.  So obviously, it's not even close to impossible to handle this without making the kind of inexcusable missteps that Trump made.  Stop acting like there's nothing he could have done differently here.  The guy's sheet the bed in the worst way.

I have said exactly the opposite of that countless times.  Trump and his team could have done A LOT differently.  Most notably for me, is Trump didn't need to like a child and argue with the press in his daily briefings.  He didn't need to badmouth Governors who weren't playing by his rules and they clearly should have started preparing in late 2019.  But the notion that they have done everything tactically wrong is just inaccurate.

The country by country debate is a good one and I can't honestly say that we handled it very well.  Obviously, our numbers don't suggest that.  I will say though that our structural design as a republic proved to work pretty poorly in this situation.  Nations where the Federal government has more power seem to be doing better as they can take a uniform approach as opposed to leaving it up to localities.  I somehow think that you all wouldn't have liked that very much in this case though. 

Much of the infection and death rate are due to Governors either opening too early (which Trump supported) or mixing Covid positive patients into nursing homes (which Trump opposed).  Also, I'm not sure how fair it is to compare us to a place like South Korea which, comparably has only 15% of our population. 

But this all kind proves my point doesn't it.  This ish is hard to make work, especially in our system.  

And lastly, I'm no expert, but my take is that we are still in the first wave.  The states that were hit hard early are holding up pretty well and the ones who were relatively untouched are now spiking.  Time will tell if we see a true second wave. 

5 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Yep. In the end I just stopped replying. I put him on ignore for a time and then took that off and read some posts and not others but never engaged.

Wow, you guys would really ignore me for expressing an opinion that differs from yours?  What is it you want?  An uncontested room where everyone thinks and acts the same way?  Where's the fun in that? 

And for the record, not one of you have EVER agreed with one of my points....so let's not pretend I'm the only stubborn one in here.  

2 hours ago, sameaglesfan said:

Is this schtick, or are you confused?

I thought I laid it on thick enough 

16 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

I have said exactly the opposite of that countless times.  Trump and his team could have done A LOT differently.  Most notably for me, is Trump didn't need to like a child and argue with the press in his daily briefings.  He didn't need to badmouth Governors who weren't playing by his rules and they clearly should have started preparing in late 2019.  But the notion that they have done everything tactically wrong is just inaccurate.

The country by country debate is a good one and I can't honestly say that we handled it very well.  Obviously, our numbers don't suggest that.  I will say though that our structural design as a republic proved to work pretty poorly in this situation.  Nations where the Federal government has more power seem to be doing better as they can take a uniform approach as opposed to leaving it up to localities.  I somehow think that you all wouldn't have liked that very much in this case though. 

Much of the infection and death rate are due to Governors either opening too early (which Trump supported) or mixing Covid positive patients into nursing homes (which Trump opposed).  Also, I'm not sure how fair it is to compare us to a place like South Korea which, comparably has only 15% of our population. 

But this all kind proves my point doesn't it.  This ish is hard to make work, especially in our system.  

And lastly, I'm no expert, but my take is that we are still in the first wave.  The states that were hit hard early are holding up pretty well and the ones who were relatively untouched are now spiking.  Time will tell if we see a true second wave. 

Wait wait wait wait wait... 

Are you really trying to argue that Trump was trying to fight the virus but states weren't listening to him because he doesn't have any authority or influence over GOP governors that opened too early?  

cheeto was trying to ignore or downplay the virus from day 1...and he still is. thank god the states had the power to shut things down. cheeto was only concerned about covid's impact on the economy/his re-election chances & would've kept everything open...just like he's trying to do with the schools.  science be damned...the schools must open!  he's a g-damn lunatic. 

52 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

It doesn't matter how many died, we've already established that we're not comparing the viruses.  We're comparing the responses. 

Who's they exactly?  Ron Klain was a staffer who worked on the response team.  Its not like Biden has been out there saying they made mistakes.  He's been pretending that he would have done everything right.  

My only point in bringing any of this up was that these pandemics are near impossible to deal with correctly at every step.  Especially when the WHO is feeding you bad information about communicability.  I feel like a lot of the criticism towards Fauci, Pence and Trump is overblown for political purposes. 

He actually specifically said he didn't work on the response team. He was a WH staffer claiming he witnessed it, not that he was on the team.

The video is here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4861530/ron-klein

I cannot speak for others, but I've repeatedly said here that I don't fault Trump for the early response to the pandemic. Because there are so many unknowns with a novel virus. And you can look across the globe and see so many different timelines of when and how nations responded, and you find the US is pretty well in the middle of the bell curve when you're looking at early response.

What is excruciatingly painful is watching his leadership and response to this pandemic get worse as we learn more and more about how to manage this. We know that it's pretty contagious (R0 around 3.0), and also MUCH more deadly than strains like H1N1. Testing is MUCH more critical, and more effective with COVID-19 than it was with H1N1, as H1N1 had already gotten out in the wild too much for testing to matter and the risks were lower with the significantly lower death rate. When you have a virus like COVID-19, testing is MUCH more important because it helps to identify where this thing is growing and where it isn't, and you can take corrective action that can save thousands of lives- that's NOT where we were with H1N1. And yet what is this president doing? he's complaining that we're testing too much and that's the problem. We also know that, with COVID-19, masks and face shields are highly effective in helping mitigate the spread in situations where social distancing is not possible. And what is this guy doing, after months of dealing with this pandemic and learning about what works? He's doing NOTHING to encourage people to wear masks, to social distance, etc. Because he sees this as all about him, and he just wants people to act normal so that he has a better shot at winning in November. Just ignore that grannies are dying, and that selfish kids who spring break and spread this to granny are a major problem.

 When you have a virus that is more contagious and more deadly than H1N1, comparing the response 2-4 mos after initial outbreaks is where things break differently. You think Klain's video says much more than it does.

He says they were lucky because H1N1 wasn't as deadly as it could have been. H1N1 has a low case fatality rate (MUCH lower than COVID-19) and is half as contagious. What he is saying is we should have learned from the experience with H1N1, and yet here we are. He was literally warning us that we got lucky that time, and this time around we need to have our ish together. And we don't. Because the president is a moron.

I don't particularly care for Biden. But I have zero doubt that he would be leading us much more effectively through a crisis like this. Because he would actually take it seriously and not seek to hide or diminish everything that makes him look bad.

6 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

He actually specifically said he didn't work on the response team. He was a WH staffer claiming he witnessed it, not that he was on the team.

The video is here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4861530/ron-klein

I cannot speak for others, but I've repeatedly said here that I don't fault Trump for the early response to the pandemic. Because there are so many unknowns with a novel virus. And you can look across the globe and see so many different timelines of when and how nations responded, and you find the US is pretty well in the middle of the bell curve when you're looking at early response.

What is excruciatingly painful is watching his leadership and response to this pandemic get worse as we learn more and more about how to manage this. We know that it's pretty contagious (R0 around 3.0), and also MUCH more deadly than strains like H1N1. Testing is MUCH more critical, and more effective with COVID-19 than it was with H1N1, as H1N1 had already gotten out in the wild too much for testing to matter and the risks were lower with the significantly lower death rate. When you have a virus like COVID-19, testing is MUCH more important because it helps to identify where this thing is growing and where it isn't, and you can take corrective action that can save thousands of lives- that's NOT where we were with H1N1. And yet what is this president doing? he's complaining that we're testing too much and that's the problem. We also know that, with COVID-19, masks and face shields are highly effective in helping mitigate the spread in situations where social distancing is not possible. And what is this guy doing, after months of dealing with this pandemic and learning about what works? He's doing NOTHING to encourage people to wear masks, to social distance, etc. Because he sees this as all about him, and he just wants people to act normal so that he has a better shot at winning in November. Just ignore that grannies are dying, and that selfish kids who spring break and spread this to granny are a major problem.

 When you have a virus that is more contagious and more deadly than H1N1, comparing the response 2-4 mos after initial outbreaks is where things break differently. You think Klain's video says much more than it does.

He says they were lucky because H1N1 wasn't as deadly as it could have been. H1N1 has a low case fatality rate (MUCH lower than COVID-19) and is half as contagious. What he is saying is we should have learned from the experience with H1N1, and yet here we are. He was literally warning us that we got lucky that time, and this time around we need to have our ish together. And we don't. Because the president is a moron.

I don't particularly care for Biden. But I have zero doubt that he would be leading us much more effectively through a crisis like this. Because he would actually take it seriously and not seek to hide or diminish everything that makes him look bad.

This...1000x this. Biden would have, at the very least, actually copied what others had done in places like the EU that were more successful. 

Let's actually examine the crisis and Trump's actions vs. what any functional adult would have done. 

- Early on: I agree to an extent that Trump/Biden/anyone would have been caught somewhat flatfooted in January. Now, I do think a President Biden may have kept the Pandemic Response Team and capabilities on the NSC, and he may have followed the playbook left by the Obama administration, since, he was part of that administration. But no one could have stopped the initial stage of the pandemic.

-January through February: This is where Trump gets his F- and Biden, Bush, Reagan, Clinton, my dog would have done a better job. Once the virus was here in late January/early February, any rational leader would have mobilized resources to massively expand PPE, ventilators and TESTING INFRASTRUCTURE. Trump spent the entire month of February downplaying the virus, acting like his very limited travel ban would somehow save us. We saw South Korea, we saw Italy -- we new what was coming and head extra time. Trump's complete waste of this time period is the first of his unforgivable sins. 

-March: Trump finally starts to sort of take the virus seriously, but governors are forced to step to the forefront on locking down the country (Newsom, Cuomo, DeWine, etc.). Finally the administration starts putting out some guidelines on dealing with the virus and starts getting Fauci and other experts out there. The testing is still a catastrophe, but resources are finally rallied to PPE and ventilators, as well as emergency hospital capacity. By the end of March, early April, there is cautious optimism that maybe we are flattening the curve. For about 3-4 weeks, the administration actually gives a damn and does an adequate job.

-April to present: And here comes the second F-. Trump sees falling economic data and freaks that he is losing his only/strongest re-election argument. While experts are putting out guidelines for a conservative re-opening approach along the lines of other countries, Trump decides to start tweeting "Liberate Michigan" and pushing his GOP ally governors to re-open while ripping Democrats for not doing so (saying they want to hurt him politically). He politicizes mask wearing as an attack on him. He promotes useless and potentially dangerous drugs. He reverts to out and out racism to try and shift the blame to China. He pushes for schools to re-open with no plan and threatens funding. And now he just flat out lies about the reality and ignores the situation because he doesn't want to deal with bad news. If you think Biden would have done any of this...then you are a Trumpbot.

3 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

-April to present: And here comes the second F-. Trump sees falling economic data and freaks that he is losing his only/strongest re-election argument. While experts are putting out guidelines for a conservative re-opening approach along the lines of other countries, Trump decides to start tweeting "Liberate Michigan" and pushing his GOP ally governors to re-open while ripping Democrats for not doing so (saying they want to hurt him politically). He politicizes mask wearing as an attack on him. He promotes useless and potentially dangerous drugs. He reverts to out and out racism to try and shift the blame to China. He pushes for schools to re-open with no plan and threatens funding. And now he just flat out lies about the reality and ignores the situation because he doesn't want to deal with bad news. If you think Biden would have done any of this...then you are a Trumpbot.

This right here sums it up. Donald Trump is a net negative for this country and anybody who argues otherwise clearly has issues.

Trump is fine when what's good for him lines up with what's good for the country. That means that when everything is going OK, he can't F things up. But when there's a crisis and what's required is something that isn't good for Trump, personally, he has an exponentially adverse affect on the country because (in effect) he's working against it.