4 minutes ago, Joe Shades 73 said:

Why?

I knew those vaccines were great 

We're lagging the national average by a couple pts. Currently at 58% of adults with at least one dose. Gonna be tough to hit 70% by August.

Does anybody remember when coronavirus cases started to wane last spring/summer? IMO, There seems to be some seasonal component to infections. 

41 minutes ago, toolg said:

Does anybody remember when coronavirus cases started to wane last spring/summer? IMO, There seems to be some seasonal component to infections. 

I do but now we are pretending it is over

52 minutes ago, toolg said:

Does anybody remember when coronavirus cases started to wane last spring/summer? IMO, There seems to be some seasonal component to infections. 

But this time around at least there will be a majority of the population vaccinated come fall.

Boris Johnson was so skeptical that covid was truly dangerous that he allegedly said he would be willing to inject himself with it to show everyone it's nothing to be feared. 

It's interesting that the countries hardest hit by the pandemic (US, UK, Brazil, India, etc) all seem to have something in common among them.

Trump: ‘It was obvious to smart people’ COVID came from Wuhan lab

https://nypost.com/2021/05/25/trump-it-was-obvious-to-smart-people-covid-came-from-wuhan-lab/

Face it, nobody was more right about COVID than the Donald.

 

 Of course he did - China still has his balls I see

Sounds like the investigation was tainted right from the headline:

 

Quote

Biden shut down Pompeo-led effort to prove [italics added] theory COVID originated from Wuhan lab over concerns about quality of evidence: Trump says it was obvious that's where virus came from

You don't set out to investigate something with a foregone conclusion. You start with an open question and see where the evidence leads you, but the last administration had no interest in truth and every interest in validating their idiotic notions and bigotry. Everything was self-serving. I would categorically scuttle everything that administration had from the get-go and start my own investigations. Literally nothing they did had any constructive value.

There’s no proof it was from a lab.  Fauci just said he’s not completely discounting it.  
 

13 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

There’s no proof it was from a lab.  Fauci just said he’s not completely discounting it.  
 

The circumstantial evidence is certainly piling up. I think it's very possible that there was some involvement of the lab, and the world needs to know. But the Trumpbots pushing this are doing so for all the wrong reasons. They have no interest in truth or public health; they're just chomping at the bit for more racebaiting and snide xenophohbia: "HURRR DURRR, CHINA VIRUS. DERP! KUNG-FLU! REEEEEEEE!" It's almost been half a year since these guys have been able to live vicariously through their Bigot-In-Chief. Their prejudices are just dying to be released.

4 minutes ago, sameaglesfan said:

Wow there is some revisionist history. 

5 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

The circumstantial evidence is certainly piling up. I think it's very possible that there was some involvement of the lab, and the world needs to know. But the Trumpbots pushing this are doing so for all the wrong reasons. They have no interest in truth or public health; they're just chomping at the bit for more racebaiting and snide xenophohbia: "HURRR DURRR, CHINA VIRUS. DERP! KUNG-FLU! REEEEEEEE!" It's almost been half a year since these guys have been able to live vacariously through their Bigot-In-Chief. Their prejudices are just dying to be released.

Is there a good article on the evidence so far?

This article is three weeks old, but I think the most recent news since then has been that 3 or 4 employees from the lab became sick with COVID-like symptoms in November 2019.

 

Quote

Coronavirus: Is there any evidence for lab release theory?

By Paul Rincon
Science editor, BBC News website

Published

In April, US State Department cables came to light showing embassy officials were worried about biosecurity at a virus lab in Wuhan, China. The lab is in the same city where the coronavirus outbreak was first detected.

The office of the US national intelligence director says that the virus was not man-made or genetically modified. But intelligence officials are investigating whether the outbreak began through contact with animals or through a laboratory accident.

So what, if anything, does this add to our understanding of the current pandemic?

What do the cables say?

The Washington Post newspaper reported information obtained from diplomatic cables on 14 April. They show that, in 2018, US science diplomats were sent on repeated visits to a Chinese research facility.

Officials sent two warnings to Washington about the lab. The column says the officials were worried about safety and management weaknesses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) and called for more help.

It also claims diplomats were concerned the lab's research on bat coronaviruses could risk a new Sars-like pandemic. The newspaper says the cables fuelled more recent discussions in the US government about whether the WIV or another lab in Wuhan could have been the source of the virus behind the current pandemic.

The outbreak came to light late last year when early cases were linked to a food market in Wuhan. But despite rampant online speculation, there is no evidence of any kind that the Sars-CoV-2 virus (which causes Covid-19) was released accidentally from a lab.

On 30 April, the US national intelligence director's office issued a statement rejecting the most extreme of the conspiracy theories about the virus's origins - that it was conceived as a bioweapon. It said the intelligence community was still examining whether the outbreak began "through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan".

But President Donald Trump appeared to undercut that statement in a press briefing the same day. Asked whether he had seen anything to make him think the WIV was the source of the outbreak, he replied: "Yes, I have. Yes, I have."

China rejects the idea and has criticised the US response to the crisis.

What kind of security measures do labs use?

Laboratories studying viruses and bacteria follow a system known as the BSL standards, where BSL stands for Biosafety Level.

There are four levels, which depend on the types of biological agents being studied and the containment precautions needed to isolate them.

Biosafety Level 1 (BSL-1) is the lowest and is used by labs studying well-known biological agents that pose no threat to humans.

The containment precautions increase through the levels until you arrive at Biosafety Level 4 (BSL-4) which is the highest, and reserved for labs dealing with the most dangerous pathogens for which there are few available vaccines or treatments: ebola, Marburg virus and - in the case of just two institutes in the US and Russia - smallpox.

The BSL standards are applied internationally, but with some cosmetic variations.

"The Russians, for instance, label their highest containment labs as 1 and the lowest containment labs as 4, so the exact opposite of the standard, but the actual practices and infrastructure requirements are similar," says Dr Filippa Lentzos, a biosecurity expert at King's College London.

But while the World Health Organization (WHO) has published a manual on the different levels, the standards are not enforced by any treaties.

"They've been developed to be in the best interest for working safely, for lab workers who don't want to infect themselves or their community, and for the environment to avoid accidental releases," says Dr Lentzos.

But she adds: "The 'stick' comes with the purse strings. If you want to do projects with international partners they require labs to be operating to certain standards. Or if you have products to sell in the market, or perform certain services, e.g. tests, then you are also required to operate to international standards."

Indeed, the WIV had received funding from the US, along with assistance from American research institutes. The cables recommended giving them even more help.

What kinds of security failures were the cables describing?

The short answer is we don't know from the information provided in the Washington Post. But, generally speaking, there are multiple ways that safety measures can be breached at labs dealing with biological agents.

According to Dr Lentzos, these include: "Who has access to the lab, the training and refresher-training of scientists and technicians, procedures for record-keeping, signage, inventory lists of pathogens, accident notification practices, emergency procedures."

But how unusual were the concerns expressed in the diplomatic cables?

Accidents happen. In 2014, forgotten vials of smallpox were found in a cardboard box in a research centre near Washington. In 2015, the US military accidentally shipped live anthrax samples instead of dead spores to as many as nine labs across the country and a military base in South Korea.

In four instances between 2003 and 2004, the Sars virus was accidentally released at laboratories in Singapore, Taiwan and Beijing.

There are variations in safety standards across the large number of labs at the lower end of the BSL scale and many lesser breaches don't make it into the news.

But there are relatively few labs that are designated BSL-4. Wikipedia lists over 50 around the world, of which WIV was one, but there is no authoritative list.

They have to be built to very high specifications because they deal with the most dangerous pathogens known to science. As a result, they generally have good safety records. So any concerns about procedures at one of these facilities would be more than noteworthy.

 

Weren't there previous claims of the virus leaking from a lab?

Yes, almost as soon as the novel coronavirus came to light, there was speculation - much of it uninformed - about its origins.

One online theory that surfaced in January suggested the virus could have been engineered in a lab as a bioweapon. This allegation has been repeatedly dismissed by scientists, who note that studies show the virus originated in animals - most likely in bats.

Viruses can also be engineered for the purposes of scientific research. For example, studies may improve the ability of a pathogen to cause disease, to investigate how viruses could mutate in future.

But a US study of the coronavirus genome published in March found no signs it had been engineered. "By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that Sars-CoV-2 originated through natural processes," co-author Kristian Andersen, from Scripps Research in California, said at the time.

Pathogens can be made to mutate in a laboratory without the directed manipulation of their genes. In so-called "passage experiments", viruses or bacteria are passed from one lab animal to another in order to study how the agents adapt to their hosts. Past experiments have succeeded in making viruses more transmissible between animals using this low-tech method. But, again, there is no evidence that this played any role in the origin of the novel coronavirus.

Then there is the allegation of an accidental release of a natural virus from a lab. The proximity of the Huanan Seafood and Wildlife Market in Wuhan, where the outbreak came to light, to at least two centres carrying out research on infectious diseases fuelled speculation about a link. In addition to the WIV, the city is home to another institute - the Wuhan Centre for Disease Control and Prevention.

That the WIV had carried out research on bat coronaviruses is a matter of public record. This work was entirely legitimate and published in international journals. Given the country's experience with the Sars outbreak in the early 2000s, this should come as no surprise.

But the predominant narrative about an origin at the food market had been questioned as early as January. A paper published at the time in The Lancet showed that, while most of the early Covid-19 patients had been directly exposed to the market, many others had no known link. However, it's also possible those other patients were connected in ways that aren't yet understood.

Dr Lentzos said the issue of the virus' origin was a "very difficult question", and added that "there have been quiet, behind-the-scene discussions... in the biosecurity expert community, questioning the seafood market origin that has come out very strongly from China".

But there is currently no evidence that any research institute in Wuhan was the source of Sars-CoV-2.

On 16 April, China's foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian addressed the matter at a news conference, telling journalists the World Health Organization's officials "have said multiple times there is no evidence the new coronavirus was created in a laboratory".

China has repeatedly been accused of lacking transparency in the early stages of the outbreak, and US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has said Beijing "needs to come clean" on what they know.

Amid this war of words between the countries, the painstaking - and largely unseen - scientific work to trace the origin of the virus will continue.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52318539

 

18 minutes ago, Gannan said:

Wow there is some revisionist history. 

Is it though?

I really don't think the Wuhan lab created a virus, but they may have played a role circulating it. We should find out what they were doing, what they knew about coronavirus, and when they knew it.

15 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Is there a good article on the evidence so far?

Best I can do, a WSJ article is behind the latest push.

 

Damn - I knew you fatties loved your Chinese food, just didn't think you'd have such an affinity for Chinese ballsack.  

Next you'll tell me you believe they COVID numbers they've reported are 100% accurate  

5 minutes ago, toolg said:

I really don't think the Wuhan lab created a virus, but they may have played a role circulating it. We should find out what they were doing, what they knew about coronavirus, and when they knew it.

Basically. I don't think it's at all likely that they just created this virus from northing. The most plausible role of the lab in my mind would be that they took a wild virus and genetically modified some element, like the spike protein, in the lab, which created a more infective and virulent version of it. 

Friendly reminder that "lab leak" does not automatically equate to "man made". 

Maybe the most compelling piece of circumstantial evidence (aside from its proximity) was Shi Zhengli admitting she lost sleep when the news of a SARS-like coronavirus killing people first broke because she was worried it came from her lab in the WIV. 

If they were conducting gain of function experiments (e.g. in-vivo serial passage) to achieve this outcome, they must've done so in a way that was not only undetectable, but also highly efficient. From what I've read, such known methods are usually one or the other, but not both, and RaTG13 (closest known virus) is too far a distant relative to allow for this without more telltale signs of manipulation.

That being said, the consensus among virologists is still firmly in the zoonotic origin, but as China continues to stonewall investigations and until we find an intermediate host, skepticism of this will naturally grow.

2 minutes ago, mikemack8 said:

Damn - I knew you fatties loved your Chinese food, just didn't think you'd have such an affinity for Chinese ballsack.  

Next you'll tell me you believe they COVID numbers they've reported are 100% accurate  

Yeah, because if I’m not running wild with conspiracy theories then I’m defending Chi-nah

Speaking of wild conspiracy theories that all libs fell for in here:

Ishlibs ate this up because DeSantis is a popular Republican Governor, but don't expect a lot of media coverage/retractions now that it's been thoroughly debunked. Just another day in the life of fakenews.

10 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Yeah, because if I’m not running wild with conspiracy theories then I’m defending Chi-nah

Ya I think it's pretty clear that regardless of the origin or WIV's role, China still absolutely deserves derision for their failure to be as open and transparent as possible once they identified human to human transmission of a novel coronavirus. Nationalistic tendencies always result in reluctance to warn the international community as we've seen several times in the past. The playbook is instead to down play and obfuscate for as long as possible, which has disastrous results.

41 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Ya I think it's pretty clear that regardless of the origin or WIV's role, China still absolutely deserves derision for their failure to be as open and transparent as possible once they identified human to human transmission of a novel coronavirus. Nationalistic tendencies always result in reluctance to warn the international community as we've seen several times in the past. The playbook is instead to down play and obfuscate for as long as possible, which has disastrous results.

It’s a communist nation that doesn’t have (real) elections.  So the fact that they’re not forthcoming is no surprise to me.