June 4, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, Toastrel said: Plus Police, Fire, Military - these are all socialist. Police and fire -- local level (other than FBI, ATF, etc.) Military -- actual responsibility of the federal government delineated in the Constitution Healthcare, College, Welfare -- federal overreach achieved by a ridiculous interpretation of the general welfare clause that has perverted private industry and done incalculable damage to those it was designed to help
June 4, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Um...higher education? And legit every industry the government decided to interfere with in the name of "fairness" (e.g., medicine, college, etc.) has out of control costs and is a crapshow. But don't worry, the next large government program will totally fix the damage created by the last government program. We just need to make the most progressive tax system in the world...more progressive. Democrats -- tripling down on idiotic policy Republicans -- tripling down on idiocy period I wouldn't argue with this to some degree, but some things simply won't happen without government involvement and they absolutely should be involved. Medicine and Public Schools for starters. Higher education is different. It's not necessary and a lot of people can get by just fine with a trade school education. But, while it's easy to decry gov't involvement in necessities, it's frankly more important for our society to not allow poor people do die outside of hospitals or allow the poor to go without any education. 1 minute ago, vikas83 said: Police and fire -- local level (other than FBI, ATF, etc.) Military -- actual responsibility of the federal government delineated in the Constitution Healthcare, College, Welfare -- federal overreach achieved by a ridiculous interpretation of the general welfare clause that has perverted private industry and done incalculable damage to those it was designed to help There are literally hundreds of millions of examples of you being wrong here.
June 4, 20214 yr Just now, VanHammersly said: I wouldn't argue with this to some degree, but some things simply won't happen without government involvement and they absolutely should be involved. Medicine and Public Schools for starters. Higher education is different. It's not necessary and a lot of people can get by just fine with a trade school education. But, while it's easy to decry gov't involvement in necessities, it's frankly more important for our society to not allow poor people do die outside of hospitals or allow the poor to go without any education. And there's the extreme BS. If we didn't have Medicaid, people would die! Private charity exists. Many hospitals have a religious affiliation and give away care. But, yes, if someone with no insurance and no means gets sick and can't get charity, then...they die. That's how it works when you are an adult. If we want universal healthcare at some very basic level, then pass a Constitutional Amendment. Then have hospitals for people on public assistance, and let others opt out and get superior care that they pay for. But then that would be UNFAIR! Everyone needs to get everything for free just like Jeff Bezos or its unfair/racist/sexist/etc. Of course, I don't agree that people feeling the consequences of their decisions is bad for society. Shielding people from negative outcomes is much more dangerous.
June 4, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, vikas83 said: And there's the extreme BS. If we didn't have Medicaid, people would die! Private charity exists. Many hospitals have a religious affiliation and give away care. But, yes, if someone with no insurance and no means gets sick and can't get charity, then...they die. That's how it works when you are an adult. If we want universal healthcare at some very basic level, then pass a Constitutional Amendment. Then have hospitals for people on public assistance, and let others opt out and get superior care that they pay for. But then that would be UNFAIR! Everyone needs to get everything for free just like Jeff Bezos or its unfair/racist/sexist/etc. Of course, I don't agree that people feeling the consequences of their decisions is bad for society. Shielding people from negative outcomes is much more dangerous. We're not going to see eye to eye on this obviously. People should be afforded basic needs like Medical care and a basic education. And like I said, there's millions of examples of people not dying b/c of gov't medical care or not living in poverty for the rest of their life because they got an education they wouldn't have been able to afford that it's more than justified. You don't think that's worth it. I do. And people usually don't choose to become sick or get into an accident and kids certainly don't choose to be born into poor families. But sheet happens and our priorities are out of whack and we're in no way following a righteous path if we decide to ignore it and let the chips fall where they may.
June 4, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: We're not going to see eye to eye on this obviously. People should be afforded basic needs like Medical care and a basic education. And like I said, there's millions of examples of people not dying b/c of gov't medical care or not living in poverty for the rest of their life because they got an education they wouldn't have been able to afford that it's more than justified. You don't think that's worth it. I do. And people usually don't choose to become sick or get into an accident and kids certainly don't choose to be born into poor families. But sheet happens and our priorities are out of whack and we're in no way following a righteous path if we decide to ignore it and let the chips fall where they may. So...if enough people agree with you... Quote Article V The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate. People don't choose to get sick. But they do choose not to be responsible and get health insurance. Now, maybe if the government didn't manipulate the market, insurance wouldn't be so expensive...but please stop telling me about people who can't afford insurance but are rocking an iPhone, iPad, 2 cars and air conditioning. They made poor choices. Kids -- different story. They are adults and shouldn't be held responsible. I'd support universal healthcare for those under 18 up to some level. As for people with student loan debt, you're making the argument for me. Get the government out of the student loan business.
June 4, 20214 yr 23 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: I wouldn't argue with this to some degree, but some things simply won't happen without government involvement and they absolutely should be involved. Medicine and Public Schools for starters. Higher education is different. It's not necessary and a lot of people can get by just fine with a trade school education. But, while it's easy to decry gov't involvement in necessities, it's frankly more important for our society to not allow poor people do die outside of hospitals or allow the poor to go without any education. There are literally hundreds of millions of examples of you being wrong here. Tell me all about them while also telling me how the high price of health care and education is ruining people and making them more financially insecure. The inability to see the indirect results of actions defines liberalism.
June 4, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, vikas83 said: So...if enough people agree with you... People don't choose to get sick. But they do choose not to be responsible and get health insurance. Now, maybe if the government didn't manipulate the market, insurance wouldn't be so expensive...but please stop telling me about people who can't afford insurance but are rocking an iPhone, iPad, 2 cars and air conditioning. They made poor choices. Kids -- different story. They are adults and shouldn't be held responsible. I'd support universal healthcare for those under 18 up to some level. As for people with student loan debt, you're making the argument for me. Get the government out of the student loan business. They made poor choices and we're paying for their medical care regardless. If they have no insurance then they'll end up getting it free at our expense no matter what because the emergency room won't turn them away. You may want to force the hospitals to turn them away but I'm not willing to do that. And I'm not making any case about student loans. That's higher ed. I'm fine with the gov't getting out of higher ed.
June 4, 20214 yr 52 minutes ago, Kz! said: Can anyone name a single issue, besides a few Republican governors attempting to push more restrictive abortion measures, in which Republicans have moved the nation to the right on any issue recently? So, no one will even take a crack at this one?
June 4, 20214 yr 22 minutes ago, vikas83 said: And there's the extreme BS. If we didn't have Medicaid, people would die! Private charity exists. Many hospitals have a religious affiliation and give away care. But, yes, if someone with no insurance and no means gets sick and can't get charity, then...they die. That's how it works when you are an adult. If we want universal healthcare at some very basic level, then pass a Constitutional Amendment. Then have hospitals for people on public assistance, and let others opt out and get superior care that they pay for. But then that would be UNFAIR! Everyone needs to get everything for free just like Jeff Bezos or its unfair/racist/sexist/etc. Of course, I don't agree that people feeling the consequences of their decisions is bad for society. Shielding people from negative outcomes is much more dangerous. Vikas, do you agree with the vaccine being made free or do you think people should have to pay for it?
June 4, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Tell me all about them while also telling me how the high price of health care and education is ruining people and making them more financially insecure. The inability to see the indirect results of actions defines liberalism. Tell you about people that have lived because of medical care? Or kids that have gotten an education because of public school? Do you really need examples of that? And sometimes the direct results are too important to forgo despite any negative indirect results. Medical care and public school are two of those times.
June 4, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, VanHammersly said: They made poor choices and we're paying for their medical care regardless. If they have no insurance then they'll end up getting it free at our expense no matter what because the emergency room won't turn them away. You may want to force the hospitals to turn them away but I'm not willing to do that. And I'm not making any case about student loans. That's higher ed. I'm fine with the gov't getting out of higher ed. Repeal EMTALA. Problem solved. We need to stop asking the federal government to create programs to fix all the problems created by...the last federal government program. It's the definition of insanity. The Democratic party's entire agenda is basically a morbidly obese person thinking the way to get back in shape is to eat more fried chicken.
June 4, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, Dave Moss said: Vikas, do you agree with the vaccine being made free or do you think people should have to pay for it? Once in a century pandemic...I can see the argument. However, I would have allowed people to pay for priority access and used that money to fund vaccine for the poors.
June 4, 20214 yr Just now, vikas83 said: Repeal EMTALA. Problem solved. We need to stop asking the federal government to create programs to fix all the problems created by...the last federal government program. It's the definition of insanity. The Democratic party's entire agenda is basically a morbidly obese person thinking the way to get back in shape is to eat more fried chicken. Like I said, I'm not willing to do that. As far as I'm concerned, people shouldn't die in the streets because they can't afford care.
June 4, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: Tell you about people that have lived because of medical care? Or kids that have gotten an education because of public school? Do you really need examples of that? And sometimes the direct results are too important to forgo despite any negative indirect results. Medical care and public school are two of those times. No, they aren't. We are punishing everyone to help a small group. We are rewarding irresponsibility and punishing responsible behavior, then wondering why we get more of the former and less of the latter. K-12 education is something I support. Kids aren't responsible for their life situation. We are talking healthcare and higher education. 1 minute ago, VanHammersly said: Like I said, I'm not willing to do that. As far as I'm concerned, people shouldn't die in the streets because they can't afford care. And this emotional weakness is why we fail.
June 4, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Once in a century pandemic...I can see the argument. However, I would have allowed people to pay for priority access and used that money to fund vaccine for the poors. You’re such a capitalist.
June 4, 20214 yr Just now, DEagle7 said: Dammit, I think I deleted my Vikas/Ebeneezer Scrooge meme I kinda like the one with Jessica Walter talking about the price of a banana, even though I never watched Arrested Development. RIP Jessica Walter.
June 4, 20214 yr 7 minutes ago, vikas83 said: No, they aren't. We are punishing everyone to help a small group. We are rewarding irresponsibility and punishing responsible behavior, then wondering why we get more of the former and less of the latter. K-12 education is something I support. Kids aren't responsible for their life situation. We are talking healthcare and higher education. I wasn't talking about higher ed. I conceded in my first post on this that getting the gov't out of higher ed would be a good thing. I mentioned medical care and public schools as places where socialism was necessary. And it's not a small group at all. We're not talking about trans laws or something that effects essentially no one. The amount of people that are retired and have no steady income and wouldn't be able to afford medical care or are younger but wouldn't have health insurance without a gov't option is enormous. 8 minutes ago, vikas83 said: And this emotional weakness is why we fail. Stop. No one's failed. We live in the most prosperous country in human history. And furthermore, what you're proposing is politically impossible and immensely unpopular. No one's going to allow people to die in the streets. 9 minutes ago, vikas83 said: I kinda like the one with Jessica Walter talking about the price of a banana, even though I never watched Arrested Development. RIP Jessica Walter.
June 4, 20214 yr 17 minutes ago, vikas83 said: Once in a century pandemic...I can see the argument. However, I would have allowed people to pay for priority access and used that money to fund vaccine for the poors. We the poors agree with you!!
June 4, 20214 yr 15 minutes ago, Dave Moss said: You’re such a capitalist. Yes but is he a fake Libertarian like TEW
June 4, 20214 yr 48 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: I wouldn't argue with this to some degree, but some things simply won't happen without government involvement and they absolutely should be involved. Medicine and Public Schools for starters. Higher education is different. It's not necessary and a lot of people can get by just fine with a trade school education. But, while it's easy to decry gov't involvement in necessities, it's frankly more important for our society to not allow poor people do die outside of hospitals or allow the poor to go without any education. There are literally hundreds of millions of examples of you being wrong here. There's a difference between having a safety net for the subset of society that's temporarily down on their luck, and having programs that people end up depending on permanently. Even Hayek wasn't against having a safety net. But we've gone welllllllll beyond that in many ways. EMTALA is another example of a government program started with altruistic means that has turned into a primary dependency for people and causes prices to rise. And the ACA has only made the problem worse.
June 4, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, Joe Shades 73 said: Yes but is he a fake Libertarian like TEW go on...
June 4, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: I wasn't talking about higher ed. I conceded in my first post on this that getting the gov't out of higher ed would be a good thing. I mentioned medical care and public schools as places where socialism was necessary. And it's not a small group at all. We're not talking about trans laws or something that effects essentially no one. The amount of people that are retired and have no steady income and wouldn't be able to afford medical care or are younger but wouldn't have health insurance without a gov't option is enormous. Stop. No one's failed. We live in the most prosperous country in human history. And furthermore, what you're proposing is politically impossible and immensely unpopular. No one's going to allow people to die in the streets. Of course none of it will pass. We long passed the Rubicon and people are conditioned to look to the government to bail them out of their poor life choices while a small subset foots the entire bill. Nothing will stop this continuing slide into catastrophe -- this is one of the reasons (not the main one) that I don't have children. I do love the cries for Medicare. The budget is being imploded by entitlement programs, and social security is screwed because of rising life expectancy. So...let's make sure seniors live even LONGER! So smart, only liberals could come up with it. And as far as young adults not having health insurance? BOO HOO. Make better choices. Maybe get some insurance instead of that brand new iPad, Jimmy.
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