I was done with Ben as a shooter last year.  Move him into the rebounder/defense specialist role and gain extra points when he gets out on the break.  If he won't accept that role then trade him for as many peanuts as you can get.  I think we are at the stage where it is reasonable to say "the process" netted Embiid and not much else in terms of real "it worked out" superstar material.

they signed ben to a 5 year max extension averaging around $34 mill per year.  you can't have a draymond green type rebounder/defender making that kind of $$$.  they need to trade him...but i know they won't. 

only hope is that he demands a trade to the lakers or something like that. 

16 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

I was done with Ben as a shooter last year.  Move him into the rebounder/defense specialist role and gain extra points when he gets out on the break.  If he won't accept that role then trade him for as many peanuts as you can get.  I think we are at the stage where it is reasonable to say "the process" netted Embiid and not much else in terms of real "it worked out" superstar material.

They are between a rock and a hard place.  

Simmons has some of the most unique abilities/talent in the entire NBA.  But the verdict is in...he will never shoot.  This fatal flaw turns him from a potential poor man's LBJ type player & perennial MVP into a 3rd/4th option on a good team, who plays D and passes well.

Embiid is not going to win a title as the franchise centerpiece.  He's a 2nd guy on a true title team.  He can't control the entire floor the way Giannis can as a big, IMO....and he also can't put in the healthy minutes to be the 1A franchise centerpiece of a title team.  

Both are flawed options and they are even more flawed together.

4 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

They are between a rock and a hard place.  

Simmons has some of the most unique abilities/talent in the entire NBA.  But the verdict is in...he will never shoot.  This fatal flaw turns him from a potential poor man's LBJ type player & perennial MVP into a 3rd/4th option on a good team, who plays D and passes well.

Embiid is not going to win a title as the franchise centerpiece.  He's a 2nd guy on a true title team.  He can't control the entire floor the way Giannis can as a big, IMO....and he also can't put in the healthy minutes to be the 1A franchise centerpiece of a title team.  

Both are flawed options and they are even more flawed together.

Fair enough but to me I think you can build around Embiid but not Ben.

The last hope (and there really is no hope at this point) with Ben is to have a coach that has the balls to tell him he won't play if he doesn't shoot.  Literally give him minimums for open jump shots and 3's per quarter.  If he doesn't take the shot, he goes on the bench.  Sometimes you need to force people out of their comfort zone to grow.

It's frankly too late at this point.   And it's not easy to have a coach that is willing to bench their star player on a nightly basis.  

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

Fair enough but to me I think you can build around Embiid but not Ben.

I agree building around Embiid will net a better team than building around Ben, just still not quite good enough.

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

Fair enough but to me I think you can build around Embiid but not Ben.

Beal for Ben 

Get it done. 

2 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

The last hope (and there really is no hope at this point) with Ben is to have a coach that has the balls to tell him he won't play if he doesn't shoot.  Literally give him minimums for open jump shots and 3's per quarter.  If he doesn't take the shot, he goes on the bench.  Sometimes you need to force people out of their comfort zone to grow.

It's frankly too late at this point.   And it's not easy to have a coach that is willing to bench their star player on a nightly basis.  

I agree building around Embiid will net a better team than building around Ben, just still not quite good enough.

bottom line is part in bold. it's too late. even if ben miraculously started taking jumpers tomorrow, he wouldn't become proficient at it for another couple years...following the giannis model. by then, they've already wasted embiid's prime.  now is the time to move ben for a win-now type player like beal, mccollum, etc. 

Any way to package horford with simmons in a deal?

1 hour ago, mr_hunt said:

yeah, can't waste peak years of embiid hoping ben will finally learn how to shot a jumpshot. 

 

30 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Fair enough but to me I think you can build around Embiid but not Ben.

Im totally fine with trading Ben.

But the issue with building around Embiid is, you guys is... how many peak years does he actually have? Are we in his physical peak now? Is that even good enough when he misses so many games and loses conditioning by the end of a season?

Trade both.

Get perimeter scorers and get a rim running athletic center that can keep up with the pace of todays game. 

17 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Any way to package horford with simmons in a deal?

its going to be extremely hard to find a team that wants horford. Its gotta be a contender that just thinks they need a vet center who can defend. And that team also has to have extreme cap space to take on the contract.  OR you have to take a bad contract right back so a team can match salary.

There arent many contenders with cap space. Its extremely difficult to find a match. Id guess there arent more than 1 or 2 in the entire league. And you might hate what they have to offer in the deal. Then you gotta decide if its worth doing just to get rid of his sucky arse. 

2 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

its going to be extremely hard to find a team that wants horford. Its gotta be a contender that just thinks they need a vet center who can defend. And that team also has to have extreme cap space to take on the contract.  OR you have to take a bad contract right back so a team can match salary.

There arent many contenders with cap space. Its extremely difficult to find a match. Id guess there arent more than 1 or 2 in the entire league. 

I feel like the Kings who were interested in him would be the team dumb enough to make a move. Feel you’d have to take back Harrison Barnes contract though. Frankly I’d be ok with that as at least he’s a better fit. 

6 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

 

Im totally fine with trading Ben.

But the issue with building around Embiid is, you guys is... how many peak years does he actually have? Are we in his physical peak now? Is that even good enough when he misses so many games and loses conditioning by the end of a season?

Trade both.

Get perimeter scorers and get a rim running athletic center that can keep up with the pace of todays game. 

peak jojo is right now.  you'll get maybe 2-3 more years of him at thls level, imo. now is the time to strike. 

trading both is an option but i'd like to see ben with a better coach before giving up on building around him. 

9 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

 

Im totally fine with trading Ben.

But the issue with building around Embiid is, you guys is... how many peak years does he actually have? Are we in his physical peak now? Is that even good enough when he misses so many games and loses conditioning by the end of a season?

Trade both.

Get perimeter scorers and get a rim running athletic center that can keep up with the pace of todays game. 

Sure do that.  Certainly a reasonable option.  End the 10yr "the process" and go back to a rebuild.  I see the logic.  For me I'd rather take a shot on Embiid.

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I feel like the Kings who were interested in him would be the team dumb enough to make a move. Feel you’d have to take back Harrison Barnes contract though. Frankly I’d be ok with that as at least he’s a better fit. 

horford has negative value, imo. there was an article a couple months ago with 5 made up horford trade scenarios.  personally, i think the writers were being way too optimistic.  

 

https://thesixersense.com/2020/05/28/philadelphia-76ers-5-potential-trade-destinations-for-al-horford/

1. 

76ERS GET

SG/SF, ANDREW WIGGINS

 

WARRIORS GET

C, AL HORFORD

2020 SECOND ROUND PICK, VIA ATL

 

 

 

2. 

76ERS GET

SF, OTTO PORTER JR

SG, BEN MCLEMORE

 

BULLS GET

SG, ERIC GORDON

PF/C, P.J. TUCKER

 

ROCKETS GET

C, AL HORFORD

 

 

 

3. 

76ERS GET

PF, KEVIN LOVE

 

CAVALIERS GET

C, AL HORFORD

 

 

4. 

76ERS GET

PG, KYLE LOWRY

 

RAPTORS GET

C, AL HORFORD

SG, ZHAIRE SMITH

 

 

5. 

76ERS GET

SG, BUDDY HIELD

C, RICHAUN HOLMES

 

KINGS GET

C, AL HORFORD

SG/SF, FURKAN KORKMAZ

 

 

7 minutes ago, mr_hunt said:

horford has negative value, imo. there was an article a couple months ago with 5 made up horford trade scenarios.  personally, i think the writers were being way too optimistic.  

 

https://thesixersense.com/2020/05/28/philadelphia-76ers-5-potential-trade-destinations-for-al-horford/

1. 

76ERS GET

SG/SF, ANDREW WIGGINS

 

WARRIORS GET

C, AL HORFORD

2020 SECOND ROUND PICK, VIA ATL

 

 

 

2. 

76ERS GET

SF, OTTO PORTER JR

SG, BEN MCLEMORE

 

BULLS GET

SG, ERIC GORDON

PF/C, P.J. TUCKER

 

ROCKETS GET

C, AL HORFORD

 

 

 

3. 

76ERS GET

PF, KEVIN LOVE

 

CAVALIERS GET

C, AL HORFORD

 

 

4. 

76ERS GET

PG, KYLE LOWRY

 

RAPTORS GET

C, AL HORFORD

SG, ZHAIRE SMITH

 

 

5. 

76ERS GET

SG, BUDDY HIELD

C, RICHAUN HOLMES

 

KINGS GET

C, AL HORFORD

SG/SF, FURKAN KORKMAZ

 

 

I actually thought prior to the season that you could eventually trade a him to the Warriors. Playing in the Western Conference they’re gonna need a center that can at least play against Anthony Davis and try to make life hard on him. But with how he played I can’t see the Warriors wanting to take on that Al Horford contract.  I’m actually surprised the Warriors didn’t wait to trade Russell in the off-season and get a better package then Andrew Wiggins And the draft pick. Unless they’re planning on using Wiggins as part of a package in a sign and trade for Giannis I don’t see the point of that deal unless you believe you can turn him around. I don’t see it. If I’m the bucks i don’t want Wiggins in a sign and trade i rather just have the cap space when Giannis leaves. 

i think you are right on optimistic. Don’t see the Kings dealing hield for horford. Could get better than that for him. The most realistic one I could see is the Cavs dealing Kevin love for Horford. Kevin Love is a better fit but he’s also declining and I believe his salary is annually 3-4 million more per than horford. 

I believe the time to have traded horford passed. I would’ve tried to use Richardson in a package to get rid of Horford contract at the deadline. I think his value is nonexistent now and the only value To another team is when he he becomes an expiring contract 

29 minutes ago, mr_hunt said:

peak jojo is right now.  you'll get maybe 2-3 more years of him at thls level, imo. now is the time to strike. 

trading both is an option but i'd like to see ben with a better coach before giving up on building around him. 

You can make a great case with numerous well reasoned points to trade either one. I really dont think theres any right or wrong choice here.

But when you do trade one youre still left with that whole list making the case against keeping the player you kept. That player is still going to leave you with a ton of questions going in to the next season. 

Ill be comfortable trading either of them. Ill also be uncomfortable keeping whichever one we keep. I think Ill feel more excitement for the next seaon if the whole thing is blown up.

 

 

8 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

You can make a great case with numerous well reasoned points to trade either one. I really dont think theres any right or wrong choice here.

But when you do trade one youre still left with that whole list making the case against keeping the player you kept. That player is still going to leave you with a ton of questions going in to the next season. 

Ill be comfortable trading either of them. Ill also be uncomfortable keeping whichever one we keep. I think Ill feel more excitement for the next seaon if the whole thing is blown up.

 

 

If you wind up trading both of them you’re going to wind up doing an entire rebuild/tank of the team again. You’re not gonna get players back there as good as them. It’s super rare you get paul George for oladipo type of trade. So what you get back are just going to be pieces that you hope to build around great players build title contender. However you don’t have those great two players to go with the pieces you’re getting to be a title contender. Essentially if you trade embiid and Simmons then you might as well just start another tank job and accumulate expiring contracts and draft picks. 

im not against that doing that but if you are selling the idea trade embiid and Simmons and we will be closer to a title i don’t see that whatsoever 

we need Hinkie back

2 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

we need Hinkie back

We need to get a better owners. It starts with the ownership. The structure they had in place sucks. They continuously pivot and change direction. It’s why you see the team built the way it is. I can’t imagine this was the vision Of the team they had when they began tanking years ago. Even if they hired back hinkie (they won’t) they’d wind up just firing him before allowing him to see it through

23 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

If you wind up trading both of them you’re going to wind up doing an entire rebuild/tank of the team again. You’re not gonna get players back there as good as them. It’s super rare you get paul George for oladipo type of trade. So what you get back are just going to be pieces that you hope to build around great players build title contender. However you don’t have those great two players to go with the pieces you’re getting to be a title contender. Essentially if you trade embiid and Simmons then you might as well just start another tank job and accumulate expiring contracts and draft picks. 

im not against that doing that but if you are selling the idea trade embiid and Simmons and we will be closer to a title i don’t see that whatsoever 

You'd get a lot back. Not 1 equal player but a lot. Good players,  depth players,  picks. 

A new coach with all that in addition to Tobias can probably do a lot.

I don't think it's a total rebuild.  Just a totally different team. Not gonna be taking because you'll have talent and other teams picks. Not our own

25 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

You'd get a lot back. Not 1 equal player but a lot. Good players,  depth players,  picks. 

A new coach with all that in addition to Tobias can probably do a lot.

I don't think it's a total rebuild.  Just a totally different team. Not gonna be taking because you'll have talent and other teams picks. Not our own

Those picks are likely not going to be very good in return because Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid are good enough to be playoff caliber teams. If you get picks in this particular upcoming draft you have to hope one is great and it’s not one of the better drafts at the top. So If you get future picks Then you are going to Likely be getting picks in the 20 range. Simmons and embiid have shown they are good enough to take a team to the postseason. And the odds of getting a great player in the 20s is far less likely than the top of the draft which this years draft class at the top isn’t overly great. Is their a chance you get great? Yes but it also will take a few years of hardship to get to the point of being a title contender if you do hit.

if you are Relying on harris to be your best player you aren’t winning anything meaningful  

your good players argument, good players don’t win championships Unless they have a great player or great players around them. Good players with depth are like 4 through 8 seeds in their conferences year in year out. We had good players before we started the process. They didn’t win a title. They were a middle of the road playoff team. You’re not gonna win a title with good players. You need great players. The NBA is the one league where if you don’t have great players or a great all time player with good players you’re not winning a title. When was the last team that won an nba title with good players with depth on their roster but no one who was considered great?  Dallas had dirk he was a great player. Pistons had rip, billups, wallace and sheed. Only two i could think of close (raptors had kawhi and good players and it took KD and klay having serious injuries to win in 6)

**if the plan is use the good players and picks to acquire another star that works if you can find that star who wants to be dealt here and sign long term. But in the nba everyone wants to play with another star so you’d have to Get him and convince another to come. It’s a lot harder then it sounds. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Those picks are likely not going to be very good in return because Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid are good enough to be playoff caliber teams. If you get picks in this particular upcoming draft you have to hope one is great and it’s not one of the better drafts at the top. So If you get future picks Then you are going to Likely be getting picks in the 20 range. And the ofds are of getting a great player in the 20s is far less likely than the top of the draft which this years draft class at the top isn’t overly great.

if you are Relying on harris to be your best player you aren’t winning anything meaningful  

Also your a good players. Good players don’t win championships. Good players with depth are like 4 through 8 seeds in their conferences year in year out. We had good players before we started the process. They didn’t win a title. They were a middle of the road playoff team. You’re not gonna win a title which is good players. You need great players. The NBA is the one league where if you don’t have great players you’re not winning a title. When was the last team that won an nba title with good players with depth on their roster? 

 

Good players are assets. You can be competitive and at any point you can package tobias, and another good player and some picks for a great player. 

Simmons may get surgery.  You don't have to but even if he doesn't he will miss about a month.  So... he's probably better off surgerizing it and being ready for December. 

Just now, HazletonEagle said:

Good players are assets. You can be competitive and at any point you can package tobias, and another good player and some picks for a great player. 

 a great player would have to want to come here and sign long term deal here. And to keep him likely need to get another great player to team up otherwise I’m guessing he probably leaves for greener pastures like most stars do. 

i get the plan but it’s much harder to get a great player to come to philly and want to stay without another great player. You basically would have to acquire two great players who want to team up. Not impossible but it is easier to say that then actually accomplish that feat.