1 hour ago, BDawk_ASamuel said:

Comparing Hurts' passing numbers to McNabb's in 2000 isn't a proper comparison given any average QB can put up 350 yards passing on any given day in today's game. 

So no matter how many yards he gets, he will be worse no matter what?

Why? Because you were young and everything was golden back then?

4 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

we can say the same about you who thinks Hurts can be something

He was touted as a back up, has an arm of a backup, vision of back up and  drafted as a back up so to expect it's gonna change is beyond me. 

 

We’ll stick around.

If the eagles go into the off-season with 3 1st rounders and hurts is our starter next year I’ll make sure to bring plenty of buckets for all the crying 

13 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

one, thats extremely long winded to say you dont think he's elite, and I aplogize for the typo as I meant late 2000's into the earl 2010s(which with contect clues my 6 year old could figure out)

It's also funny to say from 2014-2019 he was Elite(which is all our points) and then to say it's not elite qb in the next line is confusing to me. 

End of the day, Big ben, for a good stretch was elite

Well my post was about his entire career....and more years than not, he wasn't elite. His team was most successful when he had a great running game with a great defense. He personally was most successful with Bell/Brown, but they had a bad defense those years. Not surprising they didn't win squat those years. 

End of the day, he'll get in first ballot hall of fame based on the team he played for being a media darling, and the two rings (which he was awful in, carried by his defense). He's basically in the same boat as Eli. Only difference is Ben did have those 5 years in the 20-teens that Eli never really did. 

I don't think either QB, based on just their statistics, had elite careers. Too much credit/blame is given to QB's based on won/loss records. 

24 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I mean cam Newton all pro would you consider him cream of the crop and same with Ryan? I wouldn’t. I think both had great elite seasons and was never really elite after that.

I am never going to argue with you that he was never the best quarterback during that era. However he’s also playing with 3 quarterbacks in a 10 year window that might go down as 3 of the top 10 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are both top-five in the entire history of the NFL. You can make the case Aaron Rodgers by the time he’s done is gonna be a top 10. And then you throw in Brees. Realistically the two years that he probably has the best chance that it was 2015 2016 and both cam Newton and that Ryan had unbelievable years while Peyton Manning retired and Tom Brady still finished second in all pro in 2016. 

also not that I think this is a major reason but the all pro teams are picked by the media. I think his off the field issues doesn’t help him win any votes 

I think one of the biggest unfortunate things to happen to fans is that we didn’t get to see Andrew luck play longer. Cause the colts really started getting traction with the Nelson and Leonard and branden smith draft in 2018. 

For those individual years, yeah Newton and Ryan were absolutely the best of the best. Ben has never had that kind of year. And Ryan and Newton did it with Brady/Rodgers/Brees/Manning all around. Ben belongs in the Hall of Very Good....but he'll end up in the HOF due to other factors. 

11 minutes ago, Infam said:

So no matter how many yards he gets, he will be worse no matter what?

Why? Because you were young and everything was golden back then?

Just to point this out hurts is on pace this year to have like 150 less passing yards than Brett favre who was 5th in 2000. Jalen hurts currently sits at 19th in the league in passing.

that tells you how significantly different the game was in 2000 compared to 2021. There are 14 quarterbacks that are on pace to throw for 4000 yards or more this year. In 2000 there was only 3. Additionally there was only 13 quarterbacks in 2000 that had a completion percentage of 60 or higher (and one only played 8 games). In today’s NFL there’s 29 quarterbacks (and 26 have played 8 games or more). 

3 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

so he's exactly like Eli, except he was Elite for 5 years lol. 

Got it. 

Ben had that consistent stretch of goodness, but Eli made 4 Pro Bowls to Ben's 6. Eli just was never as good for a consistent stretch. Their per game numbers:

Eli:

21/34, 242 yards, 1.6 TDs to 1.0 INTs

Ben:

22/34, 259 yards, 1.7 TDs to 0.9 INTs. 

Playoffs per game:

Eli - 20/33, 235 yards, 1.5 TD, 0.8 INT

Ben - 21/34, 262 yards, 1.5 TD, 1.3 INT

I mean, I'd say that's pretty damn close to being the same guy. 

 

4 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

Eli is a .500 QB while Ben is almost 90 games over .500

Ben has 40 more touchdowns in 6 more games.

Ben has 6500 more yards in 6 more games. 

Ben's a first ballot hall of famer. 

But yes, exactly the same guy

ridiculous that you think Ben hasnt had an  Elite. 

I bet you didn't even have to look up Ben's stats.

29 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

For those individual years, yeah Newton and Ryan were absolutely the best of the best. Ben has never had that kind of year. And Ryan and Newton did it with Brady/Rodgers/Brees/Manning all around. Ben belongs in the Hall of Very Good....but he'll end up in the HOF due to other factors. 

I think Matt Ryan had a better 2016 than big Ben’s 2014. I am not going to argue that. But it’s really not by as wide margin as i thought. Both teams went 11-5 (both had great rushing attacks — freeman/Coleman and bell and WRs) 

2014 big Ben: 

67%, 4953 yards, 32 tds and 9 ints

2016 matt Ryan:

70%, 4944, 38 tds and 7 ints

The 6 tds is the major difference. 

29 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Sure... for a QB with a $1.4M cap hit, he's a reasonable starter.     All QBs struggle at times, so I'm not sure what the point is with that.  Are you suggesting that this team wouldn't be better with Stafford than Hurts?  Or just when you factor in the salary, that changes things.  

It's Hurts + 20M in cap space + 2 1st rounders vs. Stafford.

Give me Hurts. 

34 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The new movement in the NFL is winning while the QB is on a rookie contract, because unless you are cheating the salary cap like the Patriots did... the QB position takes up a huge chuck of the salary cap, especially if you are overpaying a guy that @eagle45 had in Tier 2, but paid at Tier 1.

Ultimately, football is a team sport... you need a complete team to win a Super Bowl.  BUT... an elite QB can cover for a lot of weaknesses on a roster.  

No matter how the league changes, the QB will continue to be the most important position on the roster, as it has been since around 1985.

The only reason we need a QB on a rookie contract is because the Eagles ate the largest dead cap in NFL history when they traded Wentz.  Helps to have Hurts on his 2nd round contract when you have $34 million going to no one.

Agree that QB is and always will be the most important position.  How many truly elite QBs are there and how easy is it to find one?  Until you find one, you hope to have an above average QB, although they will get paid like elite now too.

 

34 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Wentz' extension didn't hit until this season.   The roster got weaker because the guy building it focused on aging, injured and expensive players rather than knowing how to draft.   I don't disagree with the principle, but in practice, the Wentz extension had virtually no impact on the strength of the roster... until this year.

I agree. The roster got weaker due to poor choices in the draft, contract extensions and free agency.  Wentz's deal does impact the team now which is why defensive talent through the draft should be the priority.  

15 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

The only reason we need a QB on a rookie contract is because the Eagles ate the largest dead cap in NFL history when they traded Wentz.  Helps to have Hurts on his 2nd round contract when you have $34 million going to no one.

Agree that QB is and always will be the most important position.  How many truly elite QBs are there and how easy is it to find one?  Until you find one, you hope to have an above average QB, although they will get paid like elite now too.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems. 

it becomes really hard to build a team around a $30-$40 million QB when you also compound the fact you don’t draft well. If you drafted better then you don’t have to go to keep going to the well in free agency/trades and spending significant money in free agency/draft capital in trades to build your roster. Yes you will eventually lose some good players to free agency because that’s how the nfl is structured to work.  The Eagles paid a quarterback a ton of money and didn’t sustain his level of play, they drafted poorly, they restructured contracts that they shouldn’t have and they made some trades that blew up in their face.

 

6 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

Eli is a .500 QB while Ben is almost 90 games over .500

Ben has 40 more touchdowns in 6 more games.

Ben has 6500 more yards in 6 more games. 

Ben's a first ballot hall of famer. 

But yes, exactly the same guy

ridiculous that you think Ben hasnt had an  Elite. 

Ben's better than Eli, but their per game numbers aren't worlds apart. Eli will also get in the Hall likely on his first ballot. He shouldn't, but like Ben, was carried by a great defense to two rings. Combined with the market they play(ed) in, they'll both get in quickly. 

Let's look at Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees per game #'s, as compared to those two:

Brady: 23/35, 265 yards, 2.0 TDs to 0.6 INTs

AAron: 22/33, 259.4 ypg, 2.1/0.5

Manning: 23/35, 270 ypg, 2.0/0.9

Brees: 25/37, 280 ypg, 2.0/0.8

Currently, Mahomes is at:

25/38, 305 ypg, 2.5/0.6

Ryan: 24/36, 271 ypg, 1.7/0.8 Do you think Ryan is a better QB than Ben (over the course of their careers, not recently)? They're about the same, based on numbers. I don't think Ryan deserves to be in the HOF at all. 

 

 

 

Forgot I was arguing with a guy who has a Ben Fathead on the ceiling above his bed

2 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Forgot I was arguing with a guy who has a Ben Fathead on the ceiling above his bed

This is my bad. I should’ve said when i posted the stat that 8 of those 9 teams had elite or great QB play in that decade. 

Le'Veon Bell anyone? 😉

3 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

you won the argument. First ballot hall of famer according to you should be in the hall of very good. 

Yes thanks for finally getting it. 

1 hour ago, vikas83 said:

Go back and read about how fans thought about those 2 in their 1st year

I don't care what fans thought,  I only care what they were. The Eagles weren't 11-5 despite the coaching staff.

13 minutes ago, Nivraga said:

I don't care what fans thought,  I only care what they were. The Eagles weren't 11-5 despite the coaching staff.

The point is we don't know Sirianni and Gannon are crap after only 10 games. If we definitively decided on AR after 10 games, he'd have been fired.

20 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Le'Veon Bell anyone? 😉

RB factory?

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Wentz' extension didn't hit until this season.   The roster got weaker because the guy building it focused on aging, injured and expensive players rather than knowing how to draft.   I don't disagree with the principle, but in practice, the Wentz extension had virtually no impact on the strength of the roster... until this year.

How much did Wentz get paid last year? Google's not telling me about past salary.

53 minutes ago, RLC said:

It's Hurts + 20M in cap space + 2 1st rounders vs. Stafford.

Give me Hurts. 

Give me any rookie over that.  Hurts isn't the deciding factor there.

1 hour ago, TorontoEagle said:

For those individual years, yeah Newton and Ryan were absolutely the best of the best. Ben has never had that kind of year. And Ryan and Newton did it with Brady/Rodgers/Brees/Manning all around. Ben belongs in the Hall of Very Good....but he'll end up in the HOF due to other factors. 

That's the thing about winning a Super Bowl... it often takes a significant number of players having career years in that year.  1985 Bears... lightning in a bottle.  1986 Giants... same thing.  1987 Washingteam... 2017 Eagles... so many times, its just about all the career years arriving at the same time.  2017 was easily Patrick Robinson's best year.  Nelson Agholor's best.  Carson Wentz...Corey Clement...  Also career years by Lane Johnson, Brandon Brooks, Jason Kelce and Steve Wisniewski.   Everything just clicked and then Foles had perhaps the greatest 8 consecutive quarters of QB play in a single postseason.

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Wentz' extension didn't hit until this season.   The roster got weaker because the guy building it focused on aging, injured and expensive players rather than knowing how to draft.   I don't disagree with the principle, but in practice, the Wentz extension had virtually no impact on the strength of the roster... until this year.

Pretty sure his extension actually opened up cap space in 2020 the way it was structured. 

52 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

 

I agree. The roster got weaker due to poor choices in the draft, contract extensions and free agency.  Wentz's deal does impact the team now which is why defensive talent through the draft should be the priority.  

It won't affect the team in 2022.