3 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Well that's the crux of the argument. With Hurts, the RBs say it's easier for them to run. And it makes sense. The defense has to use another defender to account for Hurts, whereas with Minshew, they don't. 

But, the flipside is the o-line is so good, that the RBs were able to pummel the Jets anyway, even if it was "harder" for them. If the passing game was even better, it may become easier for the RBs, even without Hurts. The data set we have is simply too small to know, I think. But it's a fun discussion. 

Absolutely, at least the actual discussions that are going on about it!

2 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Willis McGahee

 

 

 

 

another bowl game disaster, ugh, still went in the 1st though.

15 minutes ago, downundermike said:

 

I disagree.  There is lines you don't cross, and talking about or asking anything appropriate about my mother is one of them for me.

I mean,  of course you shouldn't ask these questions,  I find it funny that the NFL has to tell everyone they should not. 

 

2 minutes ago, KINGnabb said:

It's a hypothetical but I focused more on Jalen's particular skill set.  I understand the previous point about the Line being much improved over last season.  But Anyone just can't do what Jalen just did. Only 6 other QB's in NFL History just did what Jalen did this year with rushing/passing yards for a QB.   Also yes Coaching sticking to the run and the O line are huge reasons for the turnaround.   But Jalen's skill set also plays a big role in the running game and how it functions.    

QBs to throw for 3,000 yards and rush for 750 yards in a season: Randall Cunningham (Playoffs) (1990) Robert Griffin III (Playoffs) (2012) Russell Wilson (Super Bowl Appearance) (2014) Cam Newton (Playoffs) (2017) Lamar Jackson (MVP Season/Playoffs) (2019) Kyler Murray (2020) Jalen Hurts (Playoffs) (2021)  (Everyone made the Playoffs on this list the years of these numbers except Kyler)

 

 

And take it a step further. How many of the them WON the SB that year? 

 

 

3 minutes ago, KINGnabb said:

It's a hypothetical but I focused more on Jalen's particular skill set.  I understand the previous point about the Line being much improved over last season.  But Anyone just can't do what Jalen just did. Only 6 other QB's in NFL History just did what Jalen did this year with rushing/passing yards for a QB.   Also yes Coaching sticking to the run and the O line are huge reasons for the turnaround.   But Jalen's skill set also plays a big role in the running game and how it functions.    

QBs to throw for 3,000 yards and rush for 750 yards in a season: Randall Cunningham (Playoffs) (1990) Robert Griffin III (Playoffs) (2012) Russell Wilson (Super Bowl Appearance) (2014) Cam Newton (Playoffs) (2017) Lamar Jackson (MVP Season/Playoffs) (2019) Kyler Murray (2020) Jalen Hurts (Playoffs) (2021)  (Everyone made the Playoffs on this list the years of these numbers except Kyler)

 

 

I don't think anybody is saying Hurts isn't a good runner. He's excellent at it. But look at @Alphagrand post above. He lays out the discussion nicely. 

6 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

The single game is the only data set we have.  How can there be any discussion about other games that don't exist?  

Nobody should be arguing that Hurts doesn't help the run game; it should be accepted that he does -- but how much?  The important discussion is the cost/benefit of Hurts benefitting the run game vs the cost of Hurts being a pedestrian passer of the football (to this point). 

After 16 games the Eagles are 12th in the NFL in points scored -- I'd say that's pretty good. Last season they were 26th.  That should lead to a discussion of where the ceiling for the Eagles offense is.

The Ravens with a similar run offensive scheme went 13th in 2018, to 1st in 2019, to 7th in 2020, and 16th this season (mostly because of injuries at the RB and QB position).  No playoff success, it should be noted FWIW.

If Hurts can progress in the off season, our playbook has been a lot more expansive then the option your way to the RZ and use the threat of the QB's leg to go to the TE from the 3 yard line every drive that Lamar used to win MVP.  In today's NFL no defense can ever stop any offense all the time...they need his arm and brain to step up in a dogfight.

1 minute ago, Ipiggles said:

And take it a step further. How many of the them WON the SB that year? 

 

 

Russell got the closet but Blame Pete Carroll.  Beast Mode 4 runs they win the Super Bowl.   

 

11 minutes ago, downundermike said:

I like the first 4 picks, do not like a RB that early, like the Battle pick, their is a player missing.  We have both had him in most of our mocks in the 160 range.

I wasn’t a huge RB in the 2 fan either, but I’m a big fan of Hall. He’s a bigger back with unreal contact balance and nimbleness. He replaces Howard. 

12 minutes ago, Texas Eagle said:

15 picks lol. I do like the first 6 picks.

Edit 12 picks

Yeah I didn’t do any up moves, just traded down when appropriate.

If we stick with Hurts and the same offense next year, we really need to actually invest in an RB, much to most of our chagrin. Not a huge investment, but I'd be OK with a 3rd rounder being used. 

34 minutes ago, KINGnabb said:

It's a hypothetical but I focused more on Jalen's particular skill set.  I understand the previous point about the Line being much improved over last season.  But Anyone just can't do what Jalen just did. Only 6 other QB's in NFL History just did what Jalen did this year with rushing/passing yards for a QB.   Also yes Coaching sticking to the run and the O line are huge reasons for the turnaround.   But Jalen's skill set also plays a big role in the running game and how it functions.    

QBs to throw for 3,000 yards and rush for 750 yards in a season: Randall Cunningham (Playoffs) (1990) Robert Griffin III (Playoffs) (2012) Russell Wilson (Super Bowl Appearance) (2014) Cam Newton (Playoffs) (2017) Lamar Jackson (MVP Season/Playoffs) (2019) Kyler Murray (2020) Jalen Hurts (Playoffs) (2021)  (Everyone made the Playoffs on this list the years of these numbers except Kyler)

 

 

Playoff records

Cunningham 0-1

Griffin 0-1

Wilson 2-1 ( defense #1 in points allowed, 4th in yards allowed, 4th in turnovers )

Newton 0-1

Jackson 0-1

Murray - no playoffs, 8-8 regular season

So minus Wilson, and the legion of boom defense, all teams one and done or did not make it.

4 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

If we stick with Hurts and the same offense next year, we really need to actually invest in an RB, much to most of our chagrin. Not a huge investment, but I'd be OK with a 3rd rounder being used. 

Brian Robinson from Bama would be perfect.

16 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

0.00

We’d be lucky if he’s ready for OTA/TC

 

Thanks.  I didn't think he would be back, but I know sometimes it's hyperbole when they say his season is done.  That's too bad, he's a game changer and bigtime play maker for us.  Looks like DE is essential in this next draft, hopefully a guy falls to us. 

Anyone else watching the Colts Hard Knocks? I have actually come away thinking that Carson made the right decision asking to leave Philly.

Looking solely at the contrast in leadership styles, having someone like Jalen in the same QB room was never going to work for Carson. He is naturally just not a charismatic person and that’s okay. It’s got to be super annoying to have a more charismatic personality picked in the 2nd round as your "back up”. It was just a dumb decision by Howie.

12 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Playoff records

Cunningham 0-1

Griffin 0-1

Wilson 2-1

Newton 0-1

Jackson 0-1

Murray - no playoffs, 8-8 regular season

So minus Wilson, and the legion of boom defense, all teams one and done or did not make it.

Not the greatest pattern I'll admit but Russell did get very, very close.  Well see if Jalen can help those playoff numbers this year.    No matter who we play in the Playoffs, Jalen and the Birds will be underdogs.  Especially since all the models are saying we have to face the Brady and the Defending Champs in Tampa where they actually won last year.  

 

12 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

If we stick with Hurts and the same offense next year, we really need to actually invest in an RB, much to most of our chagrin. Not a huge investment, but I'd be OK with a 3rd rounder being used. 

I'm actually hoping Jalen's rushing goes down as the years go on like Donovan.   The more he gets comfortable with defense, hopefully the passing will also improve as well.  But yes if we keep this identity as the years go, we'll need a power back.  I know Jordan had been hurt in the past but I also thought he should of came up from the PS earlier but we weren't even running Miles as much earlier in the season.  But I don't want Jalen to lose that killer instinct his has with his running.   

23 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

The single game is the only data set we have.  How can there be any discussion about other games that don't exist?  

Nobody should be arguing that Hurts doesn't help the run game; it should be accepted that he does -- but how much?  The important discussion is the cost/benefit of Hurts benefitting the run game vs the cost of Hurts being a pedestrian passer of the football (to this point). 

After 16 games the Eagles are 12th in the NFL in points scored -- I'd say that's pretty good. Last season they were 26th.  That should lead to a discussion of where the ceiling for the Eagles offense is.

The Ravens with a similar run offensive scheme went 13th in 2018, to 1st in 2019, to 7th in 2020, and 16th this season (mostly because of injuries at the RB and QB position).  No playoff success, it should be noted FWIW.

This is notable.   That's what it is really all about.

10 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

The single game is the only data set we have.  How can there be any discussion about other games that don't exist?  

Nobody should be arguing that Hurts doesn't help the run game; it should be accepted that he does -- but how much?  The important discussion is the cost/benefit of Hurts benefitting the run game vs the cost of Hurts being a pedestrian passer of the football (to this point). 

After 16 games the Eagles are 12th in the NFL in points scored -- I'd say that's pretty good. Last season they were 26th.  That should lead to a discussion of where the ceiling for the Eagles offense is.

The Ravens with a similar run offensive scheme went 13th in 2018, to 1st in 2019, to 7th in 2020, and 16th this season (mostly because of injuries at the RB and QB position).  No playoff success, it should be noted FWIW.

The team will not win a Championship or be a contender with a below average passing game.  The line between Hurts being a successful NFL starter vs. a decent back up is where he ends up as a passer.  He has shown development as a passer this season.  He's had some above average QB games and some above average throws and decisions.  I think pedestrian is an accurate description in some ways but he's shown more potential.  The limits, however, are also apparent.  He struggles getting set.  He struggles, at times,  making reads.  He lacks arm strength. 

I don't think this is a team that is ready to contend even with a franchise QB.  I don't think the QB has to be the first piece for a Championship.  I think most teams actually have a top 10 defense before having a franchise QB.  Given who is available in the draft, it's going to be easier to build a top 10 defense with picks this offseason than to get a franchise QB.  That's why I am fine with keeping Hurts as a starter.  I think he has a long way to go but I don't think his limitations, except with arm strength, aren't something that can't get fixed.  I think Dak's arm strength is fairly similar to Hurt's. Dak has had above average decision making and decent accuracy.  I think he's fair comparison in terms of Hurts' upside.  Dak isn't ever going to make a team a contender on his own.  He's good enough when he has talented players around him. 

Just looking at free agent o-linemen for this year....and what a coup it would be to somehow wrangle Scherff away from the Redskins. With Brooks being a likely June 1 cut, I imagine his cap space could be used there. I highly doubt this happens, but a boy can dream. 

15 minutes ago, KINGnabb said:

Not the greatest pattern I'll admit but Russell did get very, very close. 

Just added to my post

Wilson 2-1 ( defense #1 in points allowed, 4th in yards allowed, 4th in turnovers )

20 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Playoff records

Cunningham 0-1

Griffin 0-1

Wilson 2-1

Newton 0-1

Jackson 0-1

Murray - no playoffs, 8-8 regular season

So minus Wilson, and the legion of boom defense, all teams one and done or did not make it.

Cunningham was 3-6 in the playoffs including a win against the Saints in NO.  Cunningham really shouldn't be in this category unless you also include McNabb, Vick and Steve McNair.  I mean you might as well include Steve Young as well.  

4 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Cunningham was 3-6 in the playoffs including a win against the Saints in NO.  Cunningham really shouldn't be in this category unless you also include McNabb, Vick and Steve McNair.  I mean you might as well include Steve Young as well.  

 

Those playoff records are in relationship to this post.  QB's to throw for 3000 and rush for 700 yards in a season, 2-5 playoff record, with 4 of the 5 who got in being one and done, and the guy who one two games had a histroically good defense.

 

40 minutes ago, KINGnabb said:

QBs to throw for 3,000 yards and rush for 750 yards in a season: Randall Cunningham (Playoffs) (1990) Robert Griffin III (Playoffs) (2012) Russell Wilson (Super Bowl Appearance) (2014) Cam Newton (Playoffs) (2017) Lamar Jackson (MVP Season/Playoffs) (2019) Kyler Murray (2020) Jalen Hurts (Playoffs) (2021)  (Everyone made the Playoffs on this list the years of these numbers except Kyler)

 

4 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Cam Newton is a great comparison for Hurts.  Except Newton is bigger and more physical as a runner.  Hurts def has some of that "look at me" vibe to him, like Newton did.  I don't believe Hurts is a **** like Newton and I hope he doesn't start dressing like a Pilgrim woman like Cam does.  But as far as skillset is concerned, Hurts is Cam Newton-lite.....And as a passer in the NFL...that's not a good thing.  His arm is not as strong as Newtons was either.  But they both were one read and run guys.  

Newton also threw for 4000 yards with 60% completions as a rookie.  

5 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Cam Newton is a great comparison for Hurts.  Except Newton is bigger and more physical as a runner.  Hurts def has some of that "look at me" vibe to him, like Newton did.  I don't believe Hurts is a **** like Newton and I hope he doesn't start dressing like a Pilgrim woman like Cam does.  But as far as skillset is concerned, Hurts is Cam Newton-lite.....And as a passer in the NFL...that's not a good thing.  His arm is not as strong as Newtons was either.  But they both were one read and run guys.  

to me this is a fair comparison for Hurts. 

Hurts is a lessor Cam Newton, and I would agree to that. 

5 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Cam Newton is a great comparison for Hurts.  Except Newton is bigger and more physical as a runner.  Hurts def has some of that "look at me" vibe to him, like Newton did.  I don't believe Hurts is a **** like Newton and I hope he doesn't start dressing like a Pilgrim woman like Cam does.  But as far as skillset is concerned, Hurts is Cam Newton-lite.....And as a passer in the NFL...that's not a good thing.  His arm is not as strong as Newtons was either.  But they both were one read and run guys.  

Disagree. Newton is uncoachable because of his ego. Hurts appears to be quite coachable. While they have similarities in skill set, Newton does not give a coach the ability to execute an offensive scheme, its the Cam Newton show, whereas Hurts appears to be a QB who plays within a scheme. Newton is moneyball, if Hurts continues to show that its about getting on base then he is a way better QB.

Man. We really have very gifted scouts on the EMB. Folks here can confidently tell you who a player will be based on 20 NFL games. 
 

Very impressive.