50 minutes ago, What The F said:

How big of a factor though? In the last 20 years, a mobile QB has won the SB twice...  Wilson and Mahomes. 

Wilson also had a historic defense

12 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

As is always the case in here, these conversations spiral out of control. IP said running is a bonus. It is not. Passing from the pocket is of course vital. Mobility and running are important. Look at the influx of mobile QBs and the decreasing punt of pure pocket passers. 

I have bolded the running QB's, not mobile, but running, like Jalen Hurts.  3 of 21 fit what you are trying to say.

 

2021 NFL draft 1st round QB's, Lawrence, Wilson, Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Mac Jones. 

2020 - Joe Burrow, Tua, Justin Herbert, Jordan Love.

2019 - Kyler Murray, Daniel Jones, Dwayne Haskins

2018 - Baker Mayfiled, Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson

2017 - Mitchell Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson

2016 - Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch

 

4 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

You said you don't want to know how he runs?  Because that's what I just said.  

The last 6 Super Bowl winners were: Brady, Mahomes, Brady, Foles, Brady, P. Manning.   The only one that remotely fits that bill is Mahomes, and his arm talent is ridiculous and he can throw from any platform, as well as in the pocket.  

Go back another 6 years... Brady, Wilson, Flacco, the other Manning, Rodgers and Brees.   Wilson has that mobility, but again, has great arm talent and can absolutely beat you in the pocket if he needs to, and he doesn't run as a part of the design of the offense, but as a last resort, most of the time, still looking to throw.

Sorry, I just don't see this trend towards mobile QBs being the way to go in terms of ultimate success.   Sure, they can win in the regular season... but not so much when it really matters.  The bigger the game becomes, the more the pocket matters. 

Maybe you don’t see it that way. It’s clear the NFL does. 

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

I have bolded the running QB's, not mobile, but running, like Jalen Hurts.  3 of 21 fit what you are trying to say.

 

2021 NFL draft 1st round QB's, Lawrence, Wilson, Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Mac Jones. 

2020 - Joe Burrow, Tua, Justin Herbert, Jordan Love.

2019 - Kyler Murray, Daniel Jones, Dwayne Haskins

2018 - Baker Mayfiled, Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson

2017 - Mitchell Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson

2016 - Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch

 

Haskins wasn't a runner; barely ran at all at OSU.  Much better pure passer than Fields, but a 10-cent brain.

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

I have bolded the running QB's, not mobile, but running, like Jalen Hurts.  3 of 21 fit what you are trying to say.

 

2021 NFL draft 1st round QB's, Lawrence, Wilson, Trey Lance, Justin Fields, Mac Jones. 

2020 - Joe Burrow, Tua, Justin Herbert, Jordan Love.

2019 - Kyler Murray, Daniel Jones, Dwayne Haskins

2018 - Baker Mayfiled, Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson

2017 - Mitchell Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes, Deshaun Watson

2016 - Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Paxton Lynch

 

I said running/mobile. Lawrence and Wilson are very mobile. Mac Wilson has some pocket mobility but he’s no threat to run, which I believe contributed some to dropping. Trubisky and Watson obviously are threats with their legs. Baker is quite mobile. So was Wentz. Burrow is mobile. Herbert is mobile. 

57 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Kaepernick got to a SB. Vick to the NFC CG. What do I win? 

And barely lost it, might I add. If Jacoby Jones doesn't have the game of his life, I'm not sure John gets the better of Jim that day.

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Not a Super Bowl... that much is certain.

Eh, you kinda fell victim here to the very logical fallacy you called out a bit earlier.

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

And barely lost it, might I add. If Jacoby Jones doesn't have the game of his life, I'm not sure John gets the better of Jim that day.

But he didn’t win so that means mobile QBs can’t. 

49 minutes ago, downundermike said:

It was gonna change with Cunningham, it was gonna change with McNair and Mcnabb, it was gonna change with Vick, it was gonna change with Kap.

You win in the NFL from passing from the pocket, and that is never gonna change.

Lamar Jackson is 1-3 in the playoffs, the only game he won, ran for more than 100 yards.  You take his running away, and he does not win in the playoffs.

Lamar is doing fine finally beat the chiefs and is third in the league in rushing….. 

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Maybe you don’t see it that way. It’s clear the NFL does. 

Do they though?   How many of them are running an offense predicated on the mobility of their QB?   I can only count 1 (Baltimore), and maybe 2, if you count the Eagles, we'll see how they choose to continue to use Hurts moving forward.    All the other teams around the league seem to be primarily pocket passing teams, that have a read option play here or there to take advantage of an overly aggressive edge player for an easy first down pickup from time to time.   And we saw that play even work with Nick Foles running it back in the Chip Kelly era.  It doesn't take mobility on that play, just an overly aggressive DE to leave the team susceptible.  

I guess we'll just have to disagree.  And when the time comes to evaluate this year's QB class... I'll be locked in on plays made from the pocket, not plays made on the move.  Frankly, I don't care if I have a statue back there, if he can pass from the pocket, he'll be successful.  Many times the best play, is to know where and how to dump the ball to take the incompletion, rather than trying to escape the pocket and make a big play.  Because, while the big play can happen, that's also where the big injury often comes, or the big turnover.  It is a double edged sword.  The pocket is where the protections are from the league.   That's where the points come from reliably.  There are always exceptions to that, but that's the rule, and it remains the rule to this day.  

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Eh, you kinda fell victim here to the very logical fallacy you called out a bit earlier.

Aye... that I did.  

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I said running/mobile. Lawrence and Wilson are very mobile. Mac Wilson has some pocket mobility but he’s no threat to run, which I believe contributed some to dropping. Trubisky and Watson obviously are threats with their legs. Baker is quite mobile. So was Wentz. Burrow is mobile. Herbert is mobile. 

But Hurts is not that.  He is a running QB, not a QB that can run if needed.

9 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

And barely lost it, might I add. If Jacoby Jones doesn't have the game of his life, I'm not sure John gets the better of Jim that day.

Just to point out i think the league eventually caught up to the niners with kaepernick cause he wasn’t a good enough passer. That was his first year. His second year was pretty solid. But as the seasons past he was never as good as those two years and declining to the point of where  he got bench for blane gabbert. Please don’t give me his last year he had 16-4 td to int ratio. On the old board i went into this when the niners were down 14 or more points he had something like 10 tds and 1 ints. His last year stats on paper were great until you looked at the context 

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

But he didn’t win so that means mobile QBs can’t. 

I didn't say that they couldn't.  I said they haven't.  And I also said that it was about their arm ability over their legs.  If they can run, that's a bonus.   Ultimately, these QBs will win or lose based on their ability to throw from the pocket more than anything else, so that's the overwhelming priority in identifying them.  I don't want an offense based on the mobility, so I don't want a QB that has to rely on it.   That's why its a bonus.  Generally, a QB that's not comfortable in the pocket, but is very mobile will take a significant amount of time to learn how to play from the pocket, because their instinct is to tuck it and run... because that's always worked for them.  And very very few of them, have long careers doing that.  They either figure out how to play in the pocket, or they burn out fairly quickly... which means that investing in such a QB is a very risky proposition.  And with the cost to the salary cap of QBs these days, you just can't really afford to do that.  Nearly all of those Super Bowl wins have been won by QBs with relatively low salaries compared to the rest of the NFL QBs.  (Brady's was artificially low, however.). 

Just now, downundermike said:

But Hurts is not that.  He is a running QB, not a QB that can run if needed.

This is not only about Hurts. It’s about the direction of the NFL. 

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

This is not only about Hurts. It’s about the direction of the NFL. 

I agree.

2 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

This is not only about Hurts. It’s about the direction of the NFL. 

Yeah when the Superbowl starts being won consistently by running qb's (not by Qb's who can run)  thats when I will start believeing it's the way to go. 

UNtil then give me a pocket passer who can run....every day, and twice on sundays

6 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

But he didn’t win so that means mobile QBs can’t. 

Probably the silliest aspect of the "Prototypical Player X can/can't win a title" argument is the implication that there aren't 10 other guys in that offensive huddle, another 11 on defense, and however many more that make up your special teams. It's a fine argument for NBA teams, where a single player can have such an outsized influence on any given game, but football is the ultimate team sport, so saying Kaepernick "lost that SB" is beyond reductive and fraught with so many logical flaws. 

1 hour ago, ManuManu said:

Kaepernick got to a SB. Vick to the NFC CG. What do I win? 

Nothing

the same as those two qbs

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Just to point out i think the league eventually caught up to the niners with kaepernick cause he wasn’t a good enough passer. That was his first year. His second year was pretty solid. But as the seasons past he was never as good as those two years and declining to the point of where  he got bench for blane gabbert. Please don’t give me his last year he had 16-4 td to int ratio. On the old board i went into this when the niners were down 14 or more points he had something like 10 tds and 1 ints. His last year stats on paper were great until you looked at the context 

Completely fair. But to use Kaepernick as an example of a mobile QB being unable to win a title, is just ridiculous. He nearly did exactly that in the particular game in question. That Ravens defense was pretty darn good too.

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

This is not only about Hurts. It’s about the direction of the NFL. 

Which is likely cyclical.  If Lamar Jackson, Deshaun Watson and Kyler Murray don't equate to any post-season success, at some point franchises will default back to the QBs that rely more heavily on their arms and minds versus their legs.

1 minute ago, Ipiggles said:

Yeah when the Superbowl starts being won consistently by running qb's (not by Qb's who can run)  thats when I will start believeing it's the way to go. 

UNtil then give me a pocket passer who can run....every day, and twice on sundays

I’m pretty sure every one of us agrees with that. 

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

This is not only about Hurts. It’s about the direction of the NFL. 

It is not the direction of the NFL  There has always been mobile QB's, meaning, they can move around in the pocket, take off if need be.  Steve Young, Warren Moon, John Elway, Rich Gannon, Rodney Peete.  The NFL is not changing at all, and it certainly is not changing to anything like Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts.  Russel Wilson is not a running QB, he is a QB that is mobile and will run if it presents itself. 

21 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Maybe you don’t see it that way. It’s clear the NFL does. 

Dont agree there.

its a function of supply coming out of college. Real qbs are scarce

5 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Completely fair. But to use Kaepernick as an example of a mobile QB being unable to win a title, is just ridiculous. He nearly did exactly that in the particular game in question. That Ravens defense was pretty darn good too.

i have no problem if you have a mobile QB but you better improve as a passer each year to have your passing skills catch up to your ability to run (credit to murray he’s been better than he was last year… still has some head scratchers in there). You aren’t going to consistently win in the playoffs just running and staying status quo as a passer. It’s why i don’t think Lamar jackson is going to have great success in the playoffs. Frankly i think that last chiefs game was the ultimate fluke. He looked horrible in the first half throwing the picks he did. And it took mahomes having his first int in September and CEH to fumble to win. If their game plan is the same if they meet in the playoffs I’d take the chiefs. 

Got to also remember the lights went out in the super dome and the game completely changed. Not that was the reason but it wasn’t a very close game until that happened (28-6) and it seemed the script flipped. 

Just now, downundermike said:

It is not the direction of the NFL  There has always been mobile QB's, meaning, they can move around in the pocket, take off if need be.  Steve Young, Warren Moon, John Elway, Rich Gannon, Rodney Peete.  The NFL is not changing at all, and it certainly is not changing to anything like Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts.  Russel Wilson is not a running QB, he is a QB that is mobile and will run if it presents itself. 

I feel like you’re misunderstanding my point. Having QBs who can run when it presents itself or to evade tacklers and buy time to throw to receivers is exactly what I’m talking about with mobility. Off script stuff is vitally important. I don’t see that as a bonus.

Now with Lamar, he’s a different breed because his running ability is so special it completely changes how a defense can play him, and helps make him a much better QB. He’s a generational type "running QB.”