TorontoEagle Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, bpac55 said: You missed the point of my post if what you took away was I want Justin Herbert and Hurts has a weak arm. The point of my post was, what does Hurts do as a quarterback especially well? What did he do on Sunday that Minshew or Flacco couldn't do? Nothing stood out to me that says wow, Hurts is special there. Now, when you watch Herbert, it's clear as day when you watch him that he has a special arm. I wasn't saying I want him or saying he made great decisions, like the interception. To answer your question, he did win NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year so he has done something in the NFL. If you want people to pump the brakes on Herbert, then the argument that Brees, Brady and Manning didn't have strong arms has to be put to bed right now. You just named the top 3 quarterbacks in the NFL...ever. What they bring to the game, NO ONE has come close to no matter how strong or weak a guys arm is. I just want to know what Hurts does well as a quarterback, besides run the ball, that a guy like Minshew can't. I'm not calling for him to be the quarterback let me make that clear. I'm just trying to figure out what we have in Jalen Hurts. I mean, Hurts did not play well enough on Sunday. Against the Falcons he certainly looked like he could be the answer at QB. I think trying to determine what he is based on the still small sample size we have from him is foolhardy. He's going to be an inconsistent player I would guess, and the question becomes can the coaches get him to have more highlights than lowlights. If they can't, then we'll need to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpac55 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said: Then I guess we would agree that it's a logical fact that Jake Plummer has an adequately strong arm. That's an interesting name to bring up. He was GOOD ENOUGH to be a pain in the butt to defend and he was capable of pulling out some wins but it was clear as day that Plummer would never be a championship quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToastJenkins Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, ManuManu said: Sure, but taking away his ability to run shouldn’t be part of the equation. You look at the whole picture. Not just part of it. I agree but is the point to be mediocre or win a title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaglePhan1986 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I got shid on in the offseason for saying Hurts has lackluster arm talent as well. Arm talent doesn’t mean how far he can chuck it down the field. To even compare him to Brees, Manning, or Brady is desperation to win an argument. Through the first two games, I’m more confident in Hurts than I initially was. It doesn’t help that he has a rookie head coach and his 3 top WRs are a rookie and two 2nd year guys. He’s surrounded by a lot of inexperience. I think he has enough talent and poise to be a decent starter in this league that could result in a deep playoff run with a lot of talent around him. My opinion could change week to week though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCiggles Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, bpac55 said: That's an interesting name to bring up. He was GOOD ENOUGH to be a pain in the butt to defend and he was capable of pulling out some wins but it was clear as day that Plummer would never be a championship quarterback. I dislike that take on QBs. I mean is Eli Manning a Championship caliber QB? No, he was on very talented teams and was talented enough to win. Plummer, although mistake prone early in his career, probably could have won more if he had been put in the right environment. He led the Broncos to the AFC Championship game and a 13-3 record when he had a talented team and good coaching. I just don't think he ever really had that in AZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 21 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said: So we should take what you say as "logical fact". But what others say as "mystical and nebulous". Yes, Peyton Manning in his prime can make throws that Hurts can't. I can't imagine anyone would argue that. But here you are. If you can't realize the difference between having a strong enough arm to chuck the ball 50 yards down the field verse firing a rocket DOWNFIELD into tight windows, from the pocket. Then I guess we would agree that it's a logical fact that Jake Plummer has an adequately strong arm. I think the biggest problem for the people defending Hurts in the situation, they do not understand what arm strength is. The Hurts throw to Watkins on Sunday, Nick Foles touchdown to Alshon Jeffery in the Super Bowl, those are not arm strength throws those are timing and accuracy throws. Any NFL quarterback can that 50 yards on a high arc throw. @Mike31mt this is arm strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpac55 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, NCiggles said: I dislike that take on QBs. I mean is Eli Manning a Championship caliber QB? No, he was on very talented teams and was talented enough to win. Plummer, although mistake prone early in his career, probably could have won more if he had been put in the right environment. He led the Broncos to the AFC Championship game and a 13-3 record when he had a talented team and good coaching. I just don't think he ever really had that in AZ. But Jake Plummer with the Broncos was different that Jake Plummer in AZ. Kind of like Randall with the Vikings, he still could move but he wasn't the snake anymore. The game had to slow down for him and he had to become more of a quarterback rather than a dual threat kind of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike31mt Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, ManuManu said: You’re talking about elite processors and all-time accurate passers. Hurts ain’t that. My point still stands. Arm strength doesnt make up for any of Hurts deficiencies. His arm is strong enough. This isnt an either or, you cant be either a strong arm thrower or a cerebral type. You must have the mental ability and an adequate physical ability All of these guys have adequate physical tools. Hurts with a stronger arm still gets his feet messed up on the bomb to Devonta Smith. Hurts with a stronger arm still doesnt see Goedert open over the middle. His arm strength isnt the problem, and it will never be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justrelax Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 12 hours ago, DeathByEagle said: Doesnt help that most defenses play a bend but dont break defense now. There is not much risk taken on defenses with blitzing and pressure packages which in turn creates mistakes by the QB forcing picks. Looks like Gannon will be in that same boat. Reminds me of a zone version of Jim Schwartz so far with the lack of variety. Fourth in yards allowed. Tied for second in points allowed. Not shabby. And nothing like a Schwartz defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToastJenkins Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 49 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: No Im saying case closed because it is a logical fact that his arm is adequately strong. There is no argument to be made based on the fact that QBs with substantially weaker arms have thrived in the NFL Logically, you can absolutely cross that off the list and move on to things like footwork, knowledge of the offense, familiarity with his recievers, etc. Youre making this some mystical, nebulous discussion "arm talent throws" that you cant even define because you know his arm is strong enough To say that Peyton Manning could make throws that Hurts cant is laughable. What he could do is identify the correct read and make the throw way earlier than Hurts. That's the discussion, not arm strength This is still moronic it ignores all the weak armed qbs that have failed in the league. And its lots of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaglePhan1986 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I can’t believe our Super Bowl MVP is just chillin in Chicago. BDN beats the Niners by 3 TDs on Sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCiggles Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said: I got shid on in the offseason for saying Hurts has lackluster arm talent as well. Arm talent doesn’t mean how far he can chuck it down the field. To even compare him to Brees, Manning, or Brady is desperation to win an argument. Through the first two games, I’m more confident in Hurts than I initially was. It doesn’t help that he has a rookie head coach and his 3 top WRs are a rookie and two 2nd year guys. He’s surrounded by a lot of inexperience. I think he has enough talent and poise to be a decent starter in this league that could result in a deep playoff run with a lot of talent around him. My opinion could change week to week though. I mean comparisons are helpful in terms of aspirations. Hurts has to improve to get to where he needs to be as an NFL starter. I don't think it's fair to expect him to fix issues in a game. He is going to have flaws in his game and the question is how much progress do we see during the season. He's never going to have an elite arm. I don't know what the likelihood of him developing better processing and mechanics. I think a big part of that is dependent on scheme and coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: My point still stands. Arm strength doesnt make up for any of Hurts deficiencies. His arm is strong enough. This isnt an either or, you cant be either a strong arm thrower or a cerebral type. You must have the mental ability and an adequate physical ability All of these guys have adequate physical tools. Hurts with a stronger arm still gets his feet messed up on the bomb to Devonta Smith. Hurts with a stronger arm still doesnt see Goedert open over the middle. His arm strength isnt the problem, and it will never be As I already said, throwing deep is not arm strength, all NFL QB's can throw 50+ yards with a high arc. Those are timing and accuracy throws, not arm strength. We are talking about letting it rip into tight windows, getting a ball down the field when your feet are not perfect, that is arm strength. Exhibit A of his lack of arm strength, not throwing into the middle of the field into tight windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike31mt Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: I agree but is the point to be mediocre or win a title? And herein lies the true issue The William Wallace complex that we have as Eagles fans, after watching McNabb fall short for many years I guess... Now no one is good enough to be "a championship level" QB as if Nick Foles and his rocket arm didn't just guide us to a SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike31mt Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 25 minutes ago, downundermike said: I think the biggest problem for the people defending Hurts in the situation, they do not understand what arm strength is. The Hurts throw to Watkins on Sunday, Nick Foles touchdown to Alshon Jeffery in the Super Bowl, those are not arm strength throws those are timing and accuracy throws. Any NFL quarterback can that 50 yards on a high arc throw. @Mike31mt this is arm strength. Nick Foles won a SB. Did he not? Saying we "dont understand arm strength" is ridiculous. You guys are simply over valuing it while those of "us" can acknowledge that Hurts' arm is completely adequate for winning football games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinfan Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I'd point out that Brady's first three seasons, he ran a "dink and dunk" offense behind an elite defense, it wasn't until 2004 that Belichick opened up the offense. Over time, Brady became Brady, that is, he added strength and mastered the nuances of playing QB, but initially he threw short passes to quick WRs who consistently got separation underneath. His first season starting: 63.9%, 18 TD, 12 Int, yards per catch 10.8 (well below average), sack 9.0% (above average). 134 throws to RB, 142 to Troy Brown, 94 to Patten, that was the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: Nick Foles won a SB. Did he not? Saying we "dont understand arm strength" is ridiculous. You guys are simply over valuing it while those of "us" can acknowledge that Hurts' arm is completely adequate for winning football games Look at Hurts pass chart above, and look at this one. Why is Hurts not throwing to the middle of the field ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike31mt Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 37 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said: I got shid on in the offseason for saying Hurts has lackluster arm talent as well. Arm talent doesn’t mean how far he can chuck it down the field. To even compare him to Brees, Manning, or Brady is desperation to win an argument. Through the first two games, I’m more confident in Hurts than I initially was. It doesn’t help that he has a rookie head coach and his 3 top WRs are a rookie and two 2nd year guys. He’s surrounded by a lot of inexperience. I think he has enough talent and poise to be a decent starter in this league that could result in a deep playoff run with a lot of talent around him. My opinion could change week to week though. I agree with you I brought up those HOF QBs to simply illustrate that all you need is adequate arm strength to win at a high level. To say that Hurts arm is not strong enough is just factually incorrect, its based on nothing 10 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said: I can’t believe our Super Bowl MVP is just chillin in Chicago. BDN beats the Niners by 3 TDs on Sunday With his arm strength? No way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike31mt Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: This is still moronic it ignores all the weak armed qbs that have failed in the league. And its lots of them And what about the strong arms who failed? How did Jamarcus Russel pan out with that rocket arm? Why did Bridgewater beat out Drew Lock? Because an adequate arm is all you need to win, the mental part of the game is SIGNIFICANTLY more important and thats where Hurts has struggled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCiggles Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 22 minutes ago, bpac55 said: But Jake Plummer with the Broncos was different that Jake Plummer in AZ. Kind of like Randall with the Vikings, he still could move but he wasn't the snake anymore. The game had to slow down for him and he had to become more of a quarterback rather than a dual threat kind of guy. I think it shows that his talent was sufficient but the coaching and talent around him wasn't. 8 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: This is still moronic it ignores all the weak armed qbs that have failed in the league. And its lots of them I think the argument is really that arm strength isn't as important as accuracy and processing. If Hurts is below average in all 3 he is sure to fail. If he is above average in 2 of 3 then he may be good enough to win. Dak is probably the best example of a QB right now that seems to have limited arm strength but very good short to intermediate accuracy and processing. He also has incredible talent at skill positions and a great OC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: I agree with you I brought up those HOF QBs to simply illustrate that all you need is adequate arm strength to win at a high level. To say that Hurts arm is not strong enough is just factually incorrect, its based on nothing Hurts is not those guys, and never will be. Those guys all completed 60% + of their passes right out the chute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike31mt Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, downundermike said: Look at Hurts pass chart above, and look at this one. Why is Hurts not throwing to the middle of the field ?? Its certainly not because of arm strength Youre making my argument for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Sin Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, downundermike said: Look at Hurts pass chart above, and look at this one. Why is Hurts not throwing to the middle of the field ?? Look who he has to throw to evans godwin AB Gronk Brate Miller they force you to try and cover the whole field , who do you dbl ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest justrelax Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Mike31mt said: And what about the strong arms who failed? How did Jamarcus Russel pan out with that rocket arm? Why did Bridgewater beat out Drew Lock? Because an adequate arm is all you need to win, the mental part of the game is SIGNIFICANTLY more important and thats where Hurts has struggled Did anybody ever have a better arm than Jeff George? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManuManu Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: Nick Foles won a SB. Did he not? Saying we "dont understand arm strength" is ridiculous. You guys are simply over valuing it while those of "us" can acknowledge that Hurts' arm is completely adequate for winning football games I think his arm strength is adequate in the grand scheme of things, but he needs to get better in a lot of areas for his arm to play up. He won’t have a big enough arm to throw off his back foot downfield or when he’s late in progressions in all likelihood. He needs to be better with anticipation and speeding through or getting into secondary progressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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