4 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Probably the silliest aspect of the "Prototypical Player X can/can't win a title" argument is the implication that there aren't 10 other guys in that offensive huddle, another 11 on defense, and however many more that make up your special teams. It's a fine argument for NBA teams, where a single player can have such an outsized influence on any given game, but football is the ultimate team sport, so saying Kaepernick "lost that SB" is beyond reductive and fraught with so many logical flaws. 

Never said it.  

The biggest factor might be the salary of the QB.  Because when you overpay for a mediocre QB, you completely undercut your ability to prop them up with the talent needed around them.   2017 Eagles had a very low QB cost.  Flacco won his SB before he signed the big extension.  Seems like the best window of opportunity always comes while the QB is on a rookie deal... which means spending the pick in the first round to get a 5 year window.   But in terms of sustainability, the running QBs just aren't sustainable either.  

@ManuManu maybe this will give you some perspective on a mobile QB vs a running QB.

Patrick Mahomes has 829 career rushing yards over his 48 career starts.  At his current pace, Jalen Hurts will have more rushing yards after 10 starts.

48 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Without delving too deeply into the nuances of whether Hurts' arm is good enough to succeed in the NFL, be a QB for a SB champion, etc. I would express it in basic terms -- is he:

1.  a runner that can throw, or

2.  a thrower that can run

For category 1 the QBs I would include are Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Jalen Hurts, Daniel Jones

For category 2 the QBs I would include are Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson

 

A guy like Deshaun Watson stands out because he's about even at both.  Kyler Murray should be even at both, but his small stature dictates he has to be outside the pocket and on the move -- and is arm is erratic, like McNabb's was.. 

Personally, I have a bias against runners that can throw.  Cunningham was beyond frustrating to watch, Vick got to a point with the Eagles when you knew he was going to get injured before long.  Job #1 in the NFL is the ability to make all the throws; being a dynamic runner has always been entertaining but unsuccessful in the end.

I agree with you, but you might want to stay out of the Hurts thread. People can't seem to grasp that not all mobility is the same.

5 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Completely fair. But to use Kaepernick as an example of a mobile QB being unable to win a title, is just ridiculous. He nearly did exactly that in the particular game in question. That Ravens defense was pretty darn good too.

And even if he did win it, he would be an exception, not the rule.  The overwhelming evidence is and remains that the pocket is where QBs win in the NFL sustainably.  

6 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I’m pretty sure every one of us agrees with that. 

I agree with that.

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

i have no problem if you have a mobile QB but you better improve as a passer each year to have your passing skills catch up to your ability to run (credit to murray he’s been better than he was last year… still has some head scratchers in there). You aren’t going to consistently win in the playoffs just running and staying status quo as a passer. It’s why i don’t think Lamar jackson is going to have great success in the playoffs. Frankly i think that last chiefs game was the ultimate fluke. He looked horrible in the first half throwing the picks he did. And it took mahomes having his first int in September and CEH to fumble to win. If their game plan is the same if they meet in the playoffs I’d take the chiefs. 

Got to also remember the lights went out in the super dome and the game completely changed. Not that was the reason but it wasn’t a very close game until that happened (28-6) and it seemed the script flipped. 

Not sure I'm following your point on this... A power outage made the Ravens suddenly unable to defend a mobile QB? 

4 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Dont agree there.

its a function of supply coming out of college. Real qbs are scarce

Shanahan watched Josh Allen make a ton of plays with his legs and talked about the need for mobility and off script stuff. He now has Lance, and used three No. 1s to do it. 

Maybe it’s supply and demand. But I don’t think teams would draft a player they didn’t believe they could win with. 

3 minutes ago, downundermike said:

@ManuManu maybe this will give you some perspective on a mobile QB vs a running QB.

Patrick Mahomes has 829 career rushing yards over his 48 career starts.  At his current pace, Jalen Hurts will have more rushing yards after 10 starts.

I really don’t need that explained to me. It’s not my point. 

2 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I feel like you’re misunderstanding my point. Having QBs who can run when it presents itself or to evade tacklers and buy time to throw to receivers is exactly what I’m talking about with mobility. Off script stuff is vitally important. I don’t see that as a bonus.

Now with Lamar, he’s a different breed because his running ability is so special it completely changes how a defense can play him, and helps make him a much better QB. He’s a generational type "running QB.”

I guess this is where the disconnect between you and me lies now.  I consider anything a QB does that's 'off-script' to be a 'bonus'.  In other words, if the game plan fails, then the game plan fails and you can't expect or even really hope that the QB will (or should) bail you out.  If he does, that's a bonus.  If he doesn't... that's due to the failure of the game plan, not the QB.  

 

And I suppose I am thinking back to Buddy's brilliant idea of his offensive philosophy back in the late '80s (which likely was as much a tongue in cheek comment as some other comments he made publicly), "Randall will go out and make 3 big plays a game and we'll win."  That's not a plan, and it's not sustainable.  

 

But, I think I understand the difference in our stances now.    Good conversation.  I enjoyed it.

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I really don’t need that explained to me. It’s not my point. 

Your point, which started with Hurts, is the NFL is moving to something new, which it is not.  There has always been mobile QB's, I gave you the names.

Fact is, you win in the NFL passing from the pocket, and no matter how many times it tries to change, it never will.

6 minutes ago, downundermike said:

@ManuManu maybe this will give you some perspective on a mobile QB vs a running QB.

Patrick Mahomes has 829 career rushing yards over his 48 career starts.  At his current pace, Jalen Hurts will have more rushing yards after 10 starts.

This

mobility as a thrower isnt the same as running. I dont think of russ or mahomes as runners

5 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Not sure I'm following your point on this... A power outage made the Ravens suddenly unable to defend a mobile QB? 

Well considering before that point in time kaepernick and the niners had 6 points and looked bad on offense. Defense was also bad. As well as their special teams. They looked completely lost. After it flipped to 25-6 in the niners favor. If you don’t think a 30 min delay in action didn’t have some effect on that game i don’t know what to tell you. I think that delay helped the niners as a team immensely in regrouping because coming out of the locker room they got punched in the mouth on a kick off return for a touchdown. They look like they were dead in the water as a team 

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Shanahan watched Josh Allen make a ton of plays with his legs and talked about the need for mobility and off script stuff. He now has Lance, and used three No. 1s to do it. 

Maybe it’s supply and demand. But I don’t think teams would draft a player they didn’t believe they could win with. 

Of cpurse not

but believing in it doesnt make it true or more probable. Thats decision making on emotional reactions not data

Just now, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Well considering before that point in time kaepernick and the niners had 6 points and looked bad on offense. After it flipped to 25-6 in the niners favor. If yohaveu don’t think a 30 min delay in action didn’t have some effect on that game i don’t know what to tell you. I think that delay help the niners immensely in regrouping because coming out of the locker room pick up punched in the mouth on a kick off return for a touchdown. They look like they were dead in the water as a team 

The Ravens' defense was older... last dance for guys like Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.  Maybe they tightened up a little.  Not sure, but that might fit with that delay.

8 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

And even if he did win it, he would be an exception, not the rule.  The overwhelming evidence is and remains that the pocket is where QBs win in the NFL sustainably.  

I agree with that.

My overall point is, teams win or lose games. Obviously, the QB is the most important position on the field, but judging them primarily on wins/losses has always seemed logically flawed to me. Judge them on their production, situational performances, etc, but they're not the coach of the team. They can't block for themselves, they can't catch their own passes, they can't defend the other team's offense. They can only control so much of what happens on the field.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The Ravens' defense was older... last dance for guys like Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.  Maybe they tightened up a little.  Not sure, but that might fit with that delay.

I just think that the delay helped the Niners regroup. Once jones returned the opening second half kickoff for a td it looked like the niners sideline was dead in the water and deflated. I believe jim harbaugh I’m an interview stated it really helped them.  That delay gave them a chance to regroup. As well as the point you brought up. 

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

My overall point is, teams win or lose games. Obviously, the QB is the most important position on the field, but judging them primarily on wins/losses has always seemed logically flawed to me. Judge them on their production, situational performances, etc, but they're not the coach of the team. They can't block for themselves, they can't catch their own passes, they can't defend the other team's offense. They can only control so much of what happens on the field.

That's very true.

Well, here's a thought. I think Hurts should run more, not less. It was pretty clear to me that the 49ers had no answer to that.

Another thought: As I recall quite clearly, Sirianni spoke several times about working on Hurts' footwork. That's the area where he needs to improve. He needs to develop quiet feet. That will come with practice, drills, more practice, and game experience. Arm strength and accuracy are not the issues, despite the chorus that sings here daily.

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Well considering before that point in time kaepernick and the niners had 6 points and looked bad on offense. Defense was also bad. As well as their special teams. They looked completely lost. After it flipped to 25-6 in the niners favor. If you don’t think a 30 min delay in action didn’t have some effect on that game i don’t know what to tell you.

I mean, you might as well say the same thing about halftime in any other super bowl where one team turned things around in the second half. Not sure that's really anything to bolster the argument that mobile QBs can't win super bowls.

Quote

I think that delay helped the niners as a team immensely in regrouping because coming out of the locker room they got punched in the mouth on a kick off return for a touchdown. They look like they were dead in the water as a team 

Hmm, yeah I think you're coming around to my side of the fence on this. 

6 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Steve Young!!!  

 

 

 

 

 

Boom!  Roasted!  Pay Up!!!!

I always come back to the running/passing ratio.  The year Steve Young won a SB as a starting QB he ran 50 times and threw 447 times.

In the Super Bowl he went 24/36 for 325 yards and 6 passing TDs.  He ran only 5 times for 49 yards (although he did lead the team in rushing for the game).

13 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Shanahan watched Josh Allen make a ton of plays with his legs and talked about the need for mobility and off script stuff.

Josh Allen has 1641 rushing yards in 45 starts.  Jalen Hurts will pass that in 20 starts.

Allen averages 547 rushing yards per year, Rich Gannon ran for 529 yards his age 35 season.

8 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

This

mobility as a thrower isnt the same as running. I dont think of russ or mahomes as runners

The age old blog debate over the definition of a "mobile QB". I remember a time when Foles was characterized as a mobile QB by some. But if the point is that Jackson and Wilson aren't really the same type of QB despite both being "mobile" then yeah I agree. 

13 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

I mean, you might as well say the same thing about halftime in any other super bowl where one team turned things around in the second half. Not sure that's really anything to bolster the argument that mobile QBs can't win super bowls.

Hmm, yeah I think you're coming around to my side of the fence on this. 

there was 30 minute delay in the middle of the 3 quarter after a huge opening second half kickoff after halftime in every Super Bowl? You seriously don’t believe that any impact on the game? Jim Harbaugh has come out and has said that delay was big for them in regrouping after jones kickoff td. So the head coach of that team has stated it helped them turn it around. Not sure every game that turned around after halftime had another 30 min delay that occurred right after the other team scored a touchdown to put them up 22 points  

I never said mobile QBs can’t win a super bowl. However i think it’s a much less likely if they are a run first QB that is a subpar passer does. This is a similar argument where people believe you don’t need a top 10 QB to win a super bowl if you build your team up to be great everywhere else. It happens but it is more the outlier than the norm. Yeah if everyone could build great rosters and win with less than a top 10 QB then QBs wouldn’t be all that important. 

3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

The age old blog debate over the definition of a "mobile QB". I remember a time when Foles was characterized as a mobile QB by some. But if the point is that Jackson and Wilson aren't really the same type of QB despite both being "mobile" then yeah I agree. 

9 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I can't wait until we get to the point where the "Speak Hurts into Existence Crowd" admits they were wrong or "Negadelphia Crowd" (myself included) admits they were wrong.  I know one thing, it will be a lot less painful with the latter.  That would mean we have a real QB.    But there is a trend where some posters hated the last guy so much....that they over-value the current guy by comparison.........guess what...it's ok.   He's not coming back. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reminds me of CVON.  

That's 90% of the fan base, at least the vocal ones on social media. There was a huge swing when the reports of Wentz wanting out went behind Hurts, as a "well we don't need you anyway". 

Just now, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

there was 30 minute delay in the middle of the 3 quarter after a huge opening second half kickoff after halftime in every Super Bowl? Seriously? You seriously don’t believe that any of that on the game? Jim Harbaugh has come out and has said that delay was huge for them in regrouping. So the head coach of that team has stated it helped regrouping after that jones kick off td  

I never said mobile QBs can’t win a super bowl. However i think it’s a much less likely if they are a run first QB that is a subpar passer. This is the same argument where people believe you don’t need a top 10 QB to win a super bowl if you build your team up to be great everywhere else. Yeah if everyone could build rosters like that QBs wouldn’t be all that important. 

I didn't say it didn't have any effect on the game, I said adjustments are made at the halftime of every super bowl and those periods always provide time for coaches to regroup. And a kick return by Jones is something I've already brought up before as a point that should not be used to prove Kaepernick didn't play well enough to win that Super Bowl. You even referred to the niners as a team when describing things that happened in their favor or against their favor. Why? Because it's a team sport. Your argument isn't that the blackout didn't help Kaepernick, it's that it helped the NIners "as a team". Jones scoring TDs didn't hurt Kaepernick, those TDs hurt the Niners "as a team". Unless you think Kaepernick should be out there on the kick coverage unit, or trying to defend Jones as a safety on defense, he could only control so much of what happened in that game. The bottom line is, he played really well against a very tough defense and the Ravens still only won by a very slim margin (if Crabtree draws a flag on Smith, the Niners likely win the game, imo.)