12 hours ago12 hr Just now, Gannan said:It's exactly like those two conflicts, imperialist super power tries to conquer and occupy a smaller nation whose entire identity revolves around independence and self determination.The US was engaged in active conflict in both situations, it was totally different.Under Trumps plan, Ukraine continues to exist whereas your plan would lead to their inevitable destruction with thousands of lives lost and billions of dollars spent
12 hours ago12 hr 7 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:In your scenario, Ukraine inevitably foldsYep, just like Afghanistan did against the Soviets. Fair point, Sling Blade.
12 hours ago12 hr 5 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:Disagree.In your scenario, Ukraine inevitably folds and Russia takes over. That's where it ends and the US essentially gains nothing long-term.In the Trump proposed scenario, the conflict is ended, the US increases our global presence long term through enormous leverage with a friendly host nation.Ukraine won’t fold as long as we continue to support them fully and also to weaken Russia everywhere else. Any type of victory for Russia is bad for the US for several reasons on a geo level which is where we play. This ain’t Mountaineer/Panther level stuff.
12 hours ago12 hr 8 minutes ago, Gannan said:Just like Afghanistan and Vietnam did.Russia is in a no win situation. Were they to try to occupy the whole of Ukraine, there would be an insurgency the likes of which we have never seen.Beat me to it
12 hours ago12 hr 1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:Ukraine won’t fold as long as we continue to support them fully and also to weaken Russia everywhere else. Any type of victory for Russia is bad for the US for several reasons on a geo level which is where we play. This ain’t Mountaineer/Panther level stuff.What Trump is proposing is much more supportive of Ukraine in the long term.In your scenario, you're wishing on a lucky star that the political and military winds within Ukraine don't change for years and years. That's not reality. They will get tired of dying and having their cities and infrastructure destroyed.
12 hours ago12 hr 8 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:This is absolutely nothing like either of those two conflictsAh yes, yes, the US-funded Mujahadeen repelling the much stronger Soviet military from an invasion on their homeland is absolutely nothing like the current situation in Ukraine. No similarities to be found whatsoever.
12 hours ago12 hr 12 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:This is not true.Who is more likely to allow US presence in that region -- a (albeit) smaller Ukraine, or a larger and more resource-rich Russia?Unless we're talking about a hot war, then I reject this notion that we're abandoning anything. Clearly, that's not the caseYou do know that Russia wants nothing more than a Europe without a US presence?! You do know this, right? Wasn’t it a talking point that NATO was too far East? Russia wants no part of US involvement in their region. They are playing Trump with this trade BS! They did it with Germany and other European countries as well…
12 hours ago12 hr 6 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:What Trump is proposing is much more supportive of Ukraine in the long term.In your scenario, you're wishing on a lucky star that the political and military winds within Ukraine don't change for years and years. That's not reality. They will get tired of dying and having their cities and infrastructure destroyed.No. I’m ok with a favorable settlement at some point. The current proposal is a Putin proposal and would result in a new attack in a couple of years.
12 hours ago12 hr 6 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:What Trump is proposing is much more supportive of Ukraine in the long term.In your scenario, you're wishing on a lucky star that the political and military winds within Ukraine don't change for years and years. That's not reality. They will get tired of dying and having their cities and infrastructure destroyed.Mike, his proposal will be the end of Ukraine. Why do you think Russia wants a reduction in Ukrainian forces?! I’m surprised they didn’t ask for total reduction of the military. Nothing to fear, since Russia will sign a treaty not to attack again. Come on man, you gotta acknowledge that?!
12 hours ago12 hr 19 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:The US was engaged in active conflictYou're saying the US military was engaged in active combat against the Soviets in Afghanistan? Have I got that right?
12 hours ago12 hr 53 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:Biggest thing is for Trump to not keep going back and forth. Put pressure on Putin and tell him we will support Ukraine until he comes to the table with a fair proposal.Agreed with 95% of what you wrote there, this part here though, that ship has sailed man. I don't see how Trump walks back from being a de facto russian asset for 10+ years.
12 hours ago12 hr 1 minute ago, dawkins4prez said:Agreed with 95% of what you wrote there, this part here though, that ship has sailed man. I don't see how Trump walks back from being a de facto russian asset for 10+ years.Yeah, it was more wishful thinking than anything else.🤷♂️✌️
12 hours ago12 hr Just now, Frankfurteagle89 said:Yeah, it was more wishful thinking than anything else.🤷♂️✌️Yeah i know, you're trying to get into the thick skull of a cultist with open ended language. it's like getting baby to eat.
12 hours ago12 hr 26 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:You're saying the US military was engaged in active combat against the Soviets in Afghanistan? Have I got that right?No. I assumed he was referring to Enduring Freedom and America's involvement since he mentioned Vietnam
12 hours ago12 hr 20 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said:Yeah i know, you're trying to get into the thick skull of a cultist with open ended language. it's like getting baby to eat.If you still think Trump is a defacto Russian asset you're the cultist with a thick skull. Good grief
12 hours ago12 hr 40 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:What Trump is proposing is much more supportive of Ukraine in the long term.In your scenario, you're wishing on a lucky star that the political and military winds within Ukraine don't change for years and years. That's not reality. They will get tired of dying and having their cities and infrastructure destroyed.The only one wishing on a lucky star here is you. There are numerous conflicts that mirror this with all with the same ending for the superpower trying to conquer and control the smaller land that is made up people determined to be independent. Especially when that smaller land is being backed by other superpowers. FFS our very country was founded this way. But thinking that if Russia is given Ukranian land as part of this peace deal and they won't invade again for more after they regroup? That's wishing on a lucky star.Also, why did you run away from the Economy thread? What, Mr. "admit that Biden increased spending, own it" guy couldn't deal with the reality that Trump has also increased spending compared to his predecessors?
11 hours ago11 hr 6 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:No. I assumed he was referring to Enduring Freedom and America's involvement since he mentioned VietnamThis is what happens when you're an uneducated rube from the dumbest state in the country.
11 hours ago11 hr 1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:This is what happens when you're an uneducated rube from the dumbest state in the country.When did Russia try and occupy Vietnam?59 minutes ago, Gannan said:It's exactly like those two conflicts, imperialist super power tries to conquer and occupy a smaller nation whose entire identity revolves around independence and self determination.
11 hours ago11 hr 1 hour ago, Mike31mt said:The US was engaged in active conflict in both situations, it was totally different.Under Trumps plan, Ukraine continues to exist whereas your plan would lead to their inevitable destruction with thousands of lives lost and billions of dollars spentNo, they would be allowed to exist for another year or so until Putin invades again and has only a small army to contend with because we made them disarm.
11 hours ago11 hr 34 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:The only one wishing on a lucky star here is you. There are numerous conflicts that mirror this with all with the same ending for the superpower trying to conquer and control the smaller land that is made up people determined to be independent. Especially when that smaller land is being backed by other superpowers. FFS our very country was founded this way.But thinking that if Russia is given Ukranian land as part of this peace deal and they won't invade again for more after they regroup? That's wishing on a lucky star.Also, why did you run away from the Economy thread? What, Mr. "admit that Biden increased spending, own it" guy couldn't deal with the reality that Trump has also increased spending compared to his predecessors?Yeah I just disagree. I get it, you all would like to be permanent benefactors for the Russia-Ukraine war as Russia slowly advances and continues destroying Ukraine and killing all of its military aged men. I don't see the world that way because I'm not a neocon.
11 hours ago11 hr Just now, Gannan said:No, they would be allowed to exist for another year or so until Putin invades again and has only a small army to contend with because we made them disarm.Not with the agreement Trump is proposing
11 hours ago11 hr 1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:Beat me to itYeah my Afghanistan reference was to when the Soviets tried to conquer it. Our situation in Afghanistan was much different. We were thinking along the same lines.
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