I just don’t see where Trump goes along at all with Ukraine or our allies. I think the most likely outcome now is that Ukraine will give up the territories in the east Putin wants and that in turn they will get security guarantees from the EU. The guarantees will likely state that if Russia attacks Ukraine again EU troops will help Ukraine directly. And if Russia responds by attacking those EU countries directly US then gets involved due to Article 5. At least that the way I see it and the only way Trump can save any face at all.

Ukraine is screwed due to this awful administration.

17 minutes ago, barho said:

I just don’t see where Trump goes along at all with Ukraine or our allies. I think the most likely outcome now is that Ukraine will give up the territories in the east Putin wants and that in turn they will get security guarantees from the EU. The guarantees will likely state that if Russia attacks Ukraine again EU troops will help Ukraine directly. And if Russia responds by attacking those EU countries directly US then gets involved due to Article 5. At least that the way I see it and the only way Trump can save any face at all.

Ukraine is screwed due to this awful administration.

And why is it that Europe cant step up and start brokering the deal? Why does Ukraine have to go along with the deal the USA makes for them?

1 minute ago, HazletonEagle said:

And why is it that Europe cant step up and start brokering the deal? Why does Ukraine have to go along with the deal the USA makes for them?

I don’t disagree with you at all on that point. I just think it’s sad how we’re allowing the aggressor to win in this deal.

3 minutes ago, barho said:

I don’t disagree with you at all on that point. I just think it’s sad how we’re allowing the aggressor to win in this deal.

I do too. But I am annoyed that Zelenski and Europe have not come together to try to negotiate.

Shouldnt it be clear to all of those countries that they cant rely on the US now? Sad? Yes. Are they willing to do anything about it? Why not?

Just now, HazletonEagle said:

And why is it that Europe cant step up and start brokering the deal? Why does Ukraine have to go along with the deal the USA makes for them?

You can only broker a deal if both sides are willing to listen. Ukraine doesn’t have to go along with a deal the US makes, but any deal without the US on this subject just wouldn’t hold much water. Let’s not fool ourselves, NATO is only still way too dependent on the US and it’s not going to change any time soon. It will take time to be independent from US military might.

1 minute ago, HazletonEagle said:

I do too. But I am annoyed that Zelenski and Europe have not come together to try to negotiate.

Shouldnt it be clear to all of those countries that they cant rely on the US now? Sad? Yes. Are they willing to do anything about it? Why not?

You can’t say they haven’t tried. It’s been attempted throughout the years, but Putin has blocked all attempts from his side. His objective is to separate the US from the European allies and it’s sickening that his tactic is working.

10 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

You can only broker a deal if both sides are willing to listen. Ukraine doesn’t have to go along with a deal the US makes, but any deal without the US on this subject just wouldn’t hold much water. Let’s not fool ourselves, NATO is only still way too dependent on the US and it’s not going to change any time soon. It will take time to be independent from US military might.

It seems like their fault in that regard.

2 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

It seems like their fault in that regard.

Mostly true for sure, but not completely. Germany for instance isn’t allowed under the 2 plus 4 treaty (German reunification) to have a military that exceeds 370,000. There are also other restrictions that remain from their loss in WWII.

Blame can be placed all around, but that doesn’t solve the problem at hand. Biggest question remains: does the US want to go down the road of allying with Putin’s Russia or are we still united in the fight against aggression and oppression from dictatorship.

54 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

I do too. But I am annoyed that Zelenski and Europe have not come together to try to negotiate.

Shouldnt it be clear to all of those countries that they cant rely on the US now? Sad? Yes. Are they willing to do anything about it? Why not?

54 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

You can only broker a deal if both sides are willing to listen. Ukraine doesn’t have to go along with a deal the US makes, but any deal without the US on this subject just wouldn’t hold much water. Let’s not fool ourselves, NATO is only still way too dependent on the US and it’s not going to change any time soon. It will take time to be independent from US military might.

This is very obvious to anyone that is paying any attention whatsoever. Europe will need five years or more to be ready to take that role.

Trump was right to push Europe but it will take time.

7 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

This is very obvious to anyone that is paying any attention whatsoever. Europe will need five years or more to be ready to take that role.

Trump was right to push Europe but it will take time.

So you think European countries should start building up their militaries? Because that worked out so well 120 years ago.

1 minute ago, Dave Moss said:

So you think European countries should start building up their militaries? I mean, because that worked out so well 120 years ago.

They are building them now that Trump has decided to abandon the role the US has played post WWII. Of course you know all of that.

If I could decide I would rather have had Europe spend more but keep the US as the dominant military. An example of how that might work is for Europe to do a lot of research and weapons production and make it all available to a dominant US military. Of course some buildup in Europe is necessary in any case.

I'm pretty uneasy about European nations building up their militaries. At some point someone will be in power in one or more of those nations and think "why have this military if we can't use it"

Would have been better to work something out where EU nations can pay the US directly military support. Not sure that's even tenable, but if you look over the last millennia there aren't a lot of periods where EU nations weren't at least taking pot shots at one another.

12 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I'm pretty uneasy about European nations building up their militaries. At some point someone will be in power in one or more of those nations and think "why have this military if we can't use it"

Would have been better to work something out where EU nations can pay the US directly military support. Not sure that's even tenable, but if you look over the last millennia there aren't a lot of periods where EU nations weren't at least taking pot shots at one another.

And your uneasiness about European countries building up their militaries is one of the main reasons why Europe is not completely at fault for their US dependency.

It’s also why previous US administrations saw it as a better policy to invest in European security as it also secured US interests.

To now abandon them and appease Russia would be a classic stab in the back in so many ways.

1 hour ago, Dave Moss said:

So you think European countries should start building up their militaries? Because that worked out so well 120 years ago.

What choice do they have if the US pulls the plug and sides with the Russians?

26 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I'm pretty uneasy about European nations building up their militaries. At some point someone will be in power in one or more of those nations and think "why have this military if we can't use it"

Would have been better to work something out where EU nations can pay the US directly military support. Not sure that's even tenable, but if you look over the last millennia there aren't a lot of periods where EU nations weren't at least taking pot shots at one another.

Right, basically inline with what I was thinking

3 hours ago, barho said:

I just don’t see where Trump goes along at all with Ukraine or our allies. I think the most likely outcome now is that Ukraine will give up the territories in the east Putin wants and that in turn they will get security guarantees from the EU. The guarantees will likely state that if Russia attacks Ukraine again EU troops will help Ukraine directly. And if Russia responds by attacking those EU countries directly US then gets involved due to Article 5. At least that the way I see it and the only way Trump can save any face at all.

Ukraine is screwed due to this awful administration.

Article 5's aren't automatic involvement. Any country in NATO can refuse to respond.

41 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I'm pretty uneasy about European nations building up their militaries. At some point someone will be in power in one or more of those nations and think "why have this military if we can't use it"

Would have been better to work something out where EU nations can pay the US directly military support. Not sure that's even tenable, but if you look over the last millennia there aren't a lot of periods where EU nations weren't at least taking pot shots at one another.

Yeah, no.

They need to have skin in the game, plus two EU nations are nuclear powers, and it doesn't get much more powerful than that. They all absolutely need to have standing armies that can go to war. Russia's knocking at the door.

Even if they paid the US for military support, first off, no, I'm not at all in favor of whoring out our soldiers to other countries for money so Euros can sip espresso and eat a baguette while the fighting goes on.

Secondly, we don't even have enough to do what we need to do when SE Asia kicks off, let alone do a two front deal. WWII was a perfect intersection of public support, demographics, and a balance between technology/manufacturing for fast production. We're not going to be able to do that again.

By your logic of looking that far deep at history, we should be fearful of military action against Canada, Mexico, Spain, France, England, Germany, Japan, Panama, the Philipines, and Grenada.

If you're that worried about it, if anything a wide rearmament is safer than not, because in the latter scenario, you're gonna get an imbalance of power, which is what is going to feed a conflict. From a force structure standpoint, the best thing NATO could do would be to make regional "armies". Standardize equipment amongst nation groups, etc.

/ AP

European and NATO leaders announced Sunday that they'll be joining President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in Washington for crucial talks with President Trump, rallying around the Ukrainian leader after his exclusion from Mr. Trump's summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The remarkable move — with one European leader after another announcing that they'll be at Zelenskyy's side when he travels to the White House on Monday — was an apparent effort to ensure that the meeting goes better than the last one in February, when Trump berated the Ukrainian president in a heated Oval Office encounter.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/zelenskyy-trump-white-house-meeting-european-leaders/

Interesting

Will europe get red carpets or cold big macs? Optics matter, yes they do.

Going with Z. to the White House is a very good idea by European leaders. That could actually help persuade Trump to stay on board. Putin isn’t going to like this, which makes it a great idea. Ukraine only has a realistic shot if Europe stands together. Just too bad that Hungary has that idiotic autocrat Orban, who is another Putin lapdog.

1 minute ago, dawkins4prez said:

Will europe get red carpets or cold big macs? Optics matter, yes they do.

They may receive a golden shower from the orange leader in chief!

21 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:

Going with Z. to the White House is a very good idea by European leaders. That could actually help persuade Trump to stay on board. Putin isn’t going to like this, which makes it a great idea. Ukraine only has a realistic shot if Europe stands together. Just too bad that Hungary has that idiotic autocrat Orban, who is another Putin lapdog.

Let's see if Trump behaves and accepts this as a good thing

Watching American troops roll out the red carpet for Putin is peak winning.

Nothing on Fox website yet. I guess they don't have their marching orders yet as to how to react to this latest development.

edit: An article is now up. Very matter of fact and no opinion offered.