5 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Just to discuss Willis for a second...

Pros...big arm, exciting athlete, nice upside.  

Cons...short, was never THAT impressive against poor competition.

Yeah yea Drew Brees.  I'm not saying Willis CAN'T be great.  But he's just not enough of a check all the boxes prospect to justify a marriage-like commitment.  That's reserved for prospects who are simply much better than him.  I'd love to have him here to coach him up and see where it goes, but I'm not making an investment where the Eagles are in a position that he HAS to succeed.  He's not that kind of prospect.  

He's a late first to 2nd round pick.  I can see where a team like the Steelers considers trading up for him.  He probably would be a good fit in Tampa if Brady allowed it.  

 

7 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Until proven otherwise, it depresses me too.  We won the SB with the Rams blueprint...FA, trades, and some core veteran picks sprinkled in.  

Might not be the most reproducible blueprint, but it has worked in the past.  Trusting Howie to build a roster through the draft is a major leap of faith.

The Eagles traded for Stafford? 

13 minutes ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

2017 starters that were on the 2015 roster.  () indicates didn't play in the SB.

Yup.  It's not as bleak as it seems.  What's interesting, though is where those other starters came from.

QB...draft + FA (since Wentz/Foles are a unit here)

RB...not draft

WR...not draft

WR...not draft

OG...not draft

OG...not draft

DT...not draft

LB...not draft

S...not draft

CB...not draft

CB...draft

 

Out of all those holes in 2015...for the SB roster, they drafted one starter.

It was a miraculous sequence of trades and FA additions.  They did next to nothing to draft their way to that 2017 SB.  Lots of other great moves, sure.  This time, with all these picks and all this dead cap, they'll have to draft their way there.  And no one has much confidence in Howie to do it.

 

10 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's possible.  But an interesting thing happens when you have money.  In those cases where you are bidding against someone, you can boost your offer a bit to seal the deal when you aren't feeling pinched.  That doesn't make it the right move, but it does limit optionality.  

When it comes to FA and signing a hot 25 year on the market, it usually comes down to overpaying.  That's the price to play in that game.   I don't recommend doing it for a lot of players... but I do think its necessary in some cases.    Back in the day, the Eagles made Jon Runyan the highest paid OT in the NFL in free agency... because they desperately wanted to upgrade a foundational position (OT), and the fact that he was a RT and not a LT didn't matter to them.  They overpaid and they fixed that position for the life of his contract.   Good move, but one that was likely viewed as an overpay by other teams around the league for a RT.  In FA you have to overpay sometimes.  But, you need to be smart about when and where and for whom you do it.  Runyan was a smart move.   Not sure Williams would have been or wouldn't... but the Eagles have a cavern of a hole at S, both spots.  He'd have been a massive upgrade over what they have there and might have been the answer to the problem for the life of that contract.  Which, to me, is the goal of FA.  If you have a massive hole and can fill it with a stud for the next 5-6 years... you do it and then you can focus other resources to fill in the more minor spots.  OL, and specifically the OTs, was that for Andy.  Having a safety on the backend that Gannon could trust might make a world of difference for this defense.  Who knows?

To me the concerns about the salary cap seem oveblown when compared to other issues.  The salary cap issue is evidence of Howie's biggest fault in that he ties his ego to the players.  He is unwilling to cut ties with aging vets and bad picks.  That plays out in the team keeping and extending players they should get rid of sooner.  So the failure to get other players is the result of making a bad extension or pick not a salary cap that keeps them out of the market.  

Excellent discussion these last few pages

20 minutes ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

2017 starters that were on the 2015 roster.  () indicates didn't play in the SB.

Thanks for making my point.  Free agency supplements the draft and provides impact.  Here is the rest of the starters.

8 players drafted by the Eagles that were on the 2015 roster started that game.

2 players the Eagles signed as free agents that were on the 2015 roster started that game.

2 players the Eagles drafted after 2015 started that game.

11 players that the Eagles signed as free agents after 2015 started that game.

2 players the Eagles traded for after 2015 started that game.

15 of the 24 starters in the Super Bowl were free agents or traded for.  10 players were drafted by the Eagles.

 

Tell me again @austinfan that you don't need free agents to win and how Howie builds through the draft.

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Yup.  It's not as bleak as it seems.  What's interesting, though is where those other starters came from.

QB...draft + FA (since Wentz/Foles are a unit here)

RB...not draft

WR...not draft

WR...not draft

OG...not draft

OG...not draft

DT...not draft

LB...not draft

S...not draft

CB...not draft

CB...draft

 

Out of all those holes in 2015...for the SB roster, they drafted one starter.

It was a miraculous sequence of trades and FA additions.  They did next to nothing to draft their way to that 2017 SB.  Lots of other great moves, sure.

 

They admittedly hit on their FAs above the norm.  Foles, Blunt, Jeffrey, Smith, Brooks, Wiz, Long, McLeod, Patterson, and Bradham.

But, IMO, the key was the move for the franchise QB.  Wentz was still the right thing to do.

At to bring it forward, the lack of elite QB play for the past four seasons is the biggest issue with the team.  Not the WR picks or the dead cap.  A great QB would have spackled over all of that.

Looking at the cap one year at a time (isolating 2024) doesn't make sense anyway. It's always a multi-year projection. Someone said you have $64M for 35 roster spots so it's like $2M per player. Well, teams will backload contracts and make year 1 of the contract a very minimal cap hit. The cap is very flexible. It's not really an issue going forward (partly because we don't have any good players lol).

3 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Excellent discussion these last few pages

Stop being so racist against the other conversations.  

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Thanks for making my point.  Free agency supplements the draft and provides impact.  Here is the rest of the starters.

8 players drafted by the Eagles that were on the roster started that game.

2 players the Eagles signed as free agents that were on the 2015 roster started that game.

2 players the Eagles drafted after 2015 started that game.

11 players that the Eagles signed as free agents after 2015 started that game.

2 players the Eagles traded for after 2015 started that game.

15 of the 24 starters in the Super Bowl were free agents or traded for.  10 players were drafted by the Eagles.

 

Tell me again @austinfan that you don't need free agents to win and how Howie builds through the draft.

 

 

 

 

 

I do think Howie deserves major credit for cobbling together that roster.  Generally speaking, a true, sustainable competitor's roster should come through the draft.  And the Eagles, as it turns out, were a SB champion, but not a sustainable competitor.

They chose to transition the offense to a possession oriented pass attack with slow receivers and 2 TE's.  That backfired immensely.  Wentz slipped from elite to ordinary to bad.  And they drafted zero help.  The rest is history.  The 2018 draft, apparently Howie's crowning achievement, didn't contribute until the last year of their rookie deals.  As good as some of those picks look, they might as well have just signed UFA's because we got minimal rookie contract production.  And that's the great draft.

Just now, NCiggles said:

Stop being so racist against the other conversations.  

No worries...I already reported him.   

Back to Canada, buddy.

2 minutes ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

They admittedly hit on their FAs above the norm.  Foles, Blunt, Jeffrey, Smith, Brooks, Wiz, Long, McLeod, and Bradham.

But, IMO, the key was the move for the franchise QB.  Wentz was still the right thing to do.

At to bring it forward, the lack of elite QB play for the past four seasons is the biggest issue with the team.  Not the WR picks or the dead cap.  A great QB would have spackled over all of that.

Thank you for saying this. It’s what I’ve been saying for the last 2 years. It really extends back to most of 2019 where Carson was ok for 75% of the season then got hot the last 4-5 games. It was the exact reason why i said if you can get a QB you love and covet then you do it. You don’t wait just because your roster isn’t ideal to be a SB contender. QB may or may not fail but if you believe in that QB and love his potential then you do it and don’t think twice about it. 

3 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

Stop being so racist against the other conversations.  

Thank you. My Avril Lavigne post appreciates this.

Steal. 

1 minute ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Thank you. My Avril Lavigne post appreciates this.

This is your Happy Ending.

3 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I do think Howie deserves major credit for cobbling together that roster.  Generally speaking, a true, sustainable competitor's roster should come through the draft.  And the Eagles, as it turns out, were a SB champion, but not a sustainable competitor.

They chose to transition the offense to a possession oriented pass attack with slow receivers and 2 TE's.  That backfired immensely.  Wentz slipped from elite to ordinary to bad.  And they drafted zero help.  The rest is history.  The 2018 draft, apparently Howie's crowning achievement, didn't contribute until the last year of their rookie deals.  As good as some of those picks look, they might as well have just signed UFA's because we got minimal rookie contract production.  And that's the great draft.

Great point.  Maybe that's behind Howie's statement this week that they want to make sure there is room on the roster for their draft picks to contribute early.

Arguably what they got from Smith, Dickerson, and Williams in one season was equivalent to the 2018 class' first two or three seasons combined.

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Steal. 

That's actually a great contract. Little downside. A lot of upside. 

The void years are not going to hurt any long-term flexibility. HR.

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

This is your Happy Ending.

Seems like this is pretty complicated 

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Thanks for making my point.  Free agency supplements the draft and provides impact.  Here is the rest of the starters.

8 players drafted by the Eagles that were on the 2015 roster started that game.

2 players the Eagles signed as free agents that were on the 2015 roster started that game.

2 players the Eagles drafted after 2015 started that game.

11 players that the Eagles signed as free agents after 2015 started that game.

2 players the Eagles traded for after 2015 started that game.

15 of the 24 starters in the Super Bowl were free agents or traded for.  10 players were drafted by the Eagles.

 

Tell me again @austinfan that you don't need free agents to win and how Howie builds through the draft.

 

 

I don't think this proves your point.  None of those signings were top of the market deals except for the Brooks and Jenkins signings.  Ajayi was a trade.  You missed Chris Long.  Bradham, Jeffrey, Smith, Blount, Foles and Wisneiwski were all low end contracts.  Elliott was signed off of the practice squad.  None of these were really top of the market deals for a difference making player.  They just had enough in the way of homegrown talent that they mixed in with some vets that had experience with the coaching staff. Salary Cap space is largely irrelevant for team building.  

 

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Seems like this is pretty complicated 

2 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I don't think this proves your point.  None of those signings were top of the market deals except for the Brooks and Jenkins signings.  Ajayi was a trade.  You missed Chris Long.  Bradham, Jeffrey, Smith, Blount, Foles and Wisneiwski were all low end contracts.  Elliott was signed off of the practice squad.  None of these were really top of the market deals for a difference making player.  They just had enough in the way of homegrown talent that they mixed in with some vets that had experience with the coaching staff. Salary Cap space is largely irrelevant for team building.  

 

60% of the starters were free agents / traded for.  Adding in other players that made an impact on that run, Long, Patrick Robinson, close to 70%.  That more than makes my point.  

1 minute ago, schuy7 said:

Yeah, I’m with you…

2 minutes ago, downundermike said:

60% of the starters were free agents / traded for.  Adding in other players that made an impact on that run, Long, Patrick Robinson, close to 70%.  That more than makes my point.  

Not if your point is that salary cap space is an issue in terms of roster building.  None of those types of deals are cost prohibitive for the Eagles.  The Eagles didn't out bid teams for key FA's.  They had a good coaching staff and a promising rookie QB.  Salary cap space played exactly no role in the signings.  

14 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Steal. 

They slapped 4 voidable years on a $1.4M contract bonus lol

On the other hand, the NFL letting the Eagles sign Kyzir White for less than they signed Eric Wilson is a little concerning…

8 hours ago, Dwide Schrude said:

It’s happened before, 2018 draft. Saints traded up with GB from 27 to 14 to select Marcus Davenport, Saints gave up their 2019 first round pick & a 5th in 2018 draft. 
 

I actually think Eagles have a great shot at trading down and picking up a high future pick. The Rams changed the landscape in the NFL. Look at how aggressive teams were in FA with trading for star players, doing whatever they can to put themselves over the top in the short Super Bowl window they’re in. 
 

Chiefs are the most obvious partner. They need a WR, there’s a bunch of teams in front of them needing a WR. I’d imagine they’d want their pick of the litter, and having an extra 1st this year makes it easier for them to part with one next year. 

I'd be thrilled to trade down to 29/30 and pick up a 2023 1st.

3 hours ago, garingovt2000 said:

FWIW

If Zech McPhearson was in this draft he would be 

9th overall in 3 Cone 6.88
2nd overall in shuttle 4.0
12th overall in the broad jump 130 inches
Tied for 4th overall with 40.5 inch vertical

 

 

I may be a bigger fan of Zech than most, but I think he's going to be given every opportunity to earn the CB2 job.