1 hour ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Literally every eagles fan on Twitter going on about josh Allen comp to hurts. First off Josh Allen has a elite arm so the comp starting there makes no sense. Second jalen hurts played in 56 college games in his career before getting to the nfl. Josh Allen had 27. So hurts played more than double the amount of games that josh Allen played in college. Furthermore hurts did it at Alabama and Oklahoma with some of the best coaching in the entire country. Allen was at Wyoming with nowhere close to that coaching and the jump from Wyoming to the nfl as compared to Oklahoma/Alabama is night and day. 

This comp to josh Allen’s development is completely ridiculous. hurts is only 23 but he played in 56 collegiate games which is a ton of games. He’s had way better coaching before hitting the nfl. And he has no where close to that arm talent. They aren’t remotely the same prospect. They had the same deficiency and that’s where it ends 

What makes you think that Oklahoma/Alabama/Ohio State or any of these top college football programs actually gives a F about developing a QB?

Their teams are built to win a national championship by any means necessary. That is why so many of their QBs are athletic one read QBs that leave the pocket as soon as they can. They are not developing them to understand and actually read a defense, they are using them in gimmicky offenses that are designed to confuse other college programs or just beat them with pute athletic prowess. 

14 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Accepting coaching and putting that coaching into practice aren't the same thing.   We keep seeing him leave perfect pockets, huge clean pockets.   So, yeah, he might 'accept the coaching', but if it doesn't manifest itself on the field, what's the difference?

 

And Wentz did accept the coaching, at least as we saw it play out on the field, in 2017 he was much better in these areas than he was in 2016.  After DeFilippo left, that changed.  Granted, there were reports that he didn't like the way DeFilippo coached him, but he did put it into use on the field.  That trio of Pederson/Reich/DeFilippo just worked with him.   When it was just Doug with Press Taylor and Mike Groh, it didn't.   

Was going to say the same thing as you. You can accept coaching but that doesn’t mean you can apply it. Applying it is as important as accepting it. If you can’t apply then it means little that you are accepting then you’re gonna revert back to doing what your natural instincts and habits are. And that’s exactly what Jalen hurts does. That’s why he’s inconsistent.

22 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

What makes you think that Oklahoma/Alabama/Ohio State or any of these top college football programs actually gives a F about developing a QB?

Their teams are built to win a national championship by any means necessary. That is why so many of their QBs are athletic one read QBs that leave the pocket as soon as they can. They are not developing them to understand and actually read a defense, they are using them in gimmicky offenses that are designed to confuse other college programs or just beat them with pute athletic prowess. 

What makes you think they don’t have better coaching then Fing Wyoming? He had 56 games in college. you don’t think that’s a lot of games in college that he should be better off than what Josh Allen was? Josh Allen was a raw prospect and had poorer coaching. Jalen hurts should’ve been nowhere close to raw coming out as Allen. Literally he was coached under Nick Saban and Lincoln Riley meanwhile Josh Allen head Craig Bohl who’s 5 games below .500 over the last 8 years. Poor jalen hurts he only got to be in the program with the greatest coaches in the country, greatest facilities in the country, greatest talent in the country and everything given to him unlike the University of Wyoming 

You honestly believe hurt was not getting premiere coaching in the country at bama and Oklahoma as compared to Josh Allen at the University of Wyoming? Name me the head coach at Wyoming without looking it up. Name me their assistants he was working with at Wyoming without looking it up? And what they’d done since. Meanwhile hurts had lane kiffin, daboll as coordinators and Qb coach at bama. Then had Lincoln Riley who’s put numerous QBs into the nfl and some of the best talent to work with at bama and Oklahoma. He had the best coaching at two of the premiere Fing college football programs. don’t even get me started on all the amenities and things at his disposal at both of those programs that Wyoming could only dream about. They are not Fing Wyoming where Allen had to play and grow 

27 games at Wyoming are not the same as 56 games at Alabama and Oklahoma.   Take Josh Allen off Wyoming and give him Alabama and Oklahoma, do you think he would’ve been a much better player coming out of college? I do. The coaching, facilities and talent around him were significantly better at bama and Oklahoma than anything at Wyoming. 

It is absolutely bonkers how people on Twitter are trying to use Allen as an example to "give hurts more time". Allen has an absolute howitzer for an arm, prototypical build and can move. That buys a QB some time to develop. Hurts is small, has a much weaker arm, but much better mobility.

When you have terrible accuracy and can't read a defense you need to have physical tools to compensate. Hurts doesn't. I'm not saying he needs an Allen type arm, almost no one else has one. But he is a noodle arm who has to crow hop to get the ball 45 yards 

 

Hurts has played in a lot more games in college than a lot of the other "new age" QBs. Hurts is what he is, he has probably come pretty close to his ceiling already and there isn't much room for growth.

11 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

What makes you think they don’t have better coaching then Fing Wyoming? He had 56 games in college. you don’t think that’s a lot of games in college that he should be better off than what Josh Allen was? Josh Allen was a raw prospect and had poorer coaching. Jalen hurts should’ve been nowhere close to raw that coming out as Allen. Literally he was coached under Nick Saban and Lincoln Riley meanwhile Josh Allen head Craig Bohl who’s 5 games below .500 over the last 8 years. Poor jalen hurts he only got to be in the program with the greatest coaches in the country, greatest facilities in the country, greatest talent in the country and everything given to him unlike the University of Wyoming 

You honestly believe hurt was not getting premiere coaching in the country at bama and Oklahoma as compared to Josh Allen at the University of Wyoming? Name me the head coach at Wyoming without looking it up. Name me their assistants he was working with at Wyoming without looking it up? And what they’d done since. Meanwhile hurts had lane kiffin, daboll as coordinators and Qb coach at bama. Then had Lincoln Riley who’s put numerous QBs into the nfl and some of the best talent to work with at bama and Oklahoma. He had the best coaching at two of the premiere Fing college football programs. don’t even get me started on all the amenities and things at his disposal at both of those programs that Wyoming could only dream about. They are not Fing Wyoming.

27 games at Wyoming are not the same as 56 games at Alabama and Oklahoma.   Take Josh Allen off Wyoming and give him Alabama and Oklahoma, do you think he would’ve been a much better player coming out of college? I do

Where did I say anything about Allen or Wyoming in my post?

I said that these top collegiate football teams do not give a F about developing QBs for the NFL. They are not sitting there training them on how to break down or read a defense. They are all about winning and that is it. They will change the offense accordingly and most of their QBs are athletic one read QBs.

However, if you want to talk about Allen and Wyoming then you have to know that Allen was there for 3 years and Wyoming's football program ran a pro style offense. I would say that Josh Allen had better training at Wyoming then QBs like Mac Jones, Jalen Hurts and Justin Fields got from their college experience. You are obsessed about the name of the college or the coach, but not the actually experience that the QB has had. There is a HUGE discrepancy between running a one read, RPO offense and running a west coast pro style offense in college regardless of who the coach is.

2 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

 

Hurts has played in a lot more games in college than a lot of the other "new age" QBs. Hurts is what he is, he has probably come pretty close to his ceiling already and there isn't much room for growth.

I would add Trevor Lawrence only had 40 because the nfl had the rule he couldn’t leave after his junior year. 

herbert is the closest and he way more talented than hurts. He had an elite nfl arm. It’s why he went 6. Imo the fact that he went to Oregon, the coaching he received there as compared to Wyoming and got to play in a power 5 conference along with the NFL talent in his arm is a reason why he was able to hit the ground running as fast as he did. Besides the chargers actually having legitimate playmakers. Josh Allen minimal playmakers his first two years in Buffalo’s on offense, a less than stellar oline and he was coming out a Fing Wyoming. 

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I would add Trevor Lawrence only had 40 because the nfl had the rule he couldn’t leave after his junior year. 

herbert is the closest and he way more talented than hurts. He had an elite nfl arm. It’s why he went 6. Imo the fact that he went to Oregon, the coaching he received there as compared to Wyoming and got to play in a power 5 conference along with the NFL talent in his arm is a reason why he was able to hit the ground running as fast as he did. Besides the chargers actually having legitimate playmakers. Josh Allen minimal playmakers his first two years in Buffalo’s on offense, a less than stellar oline and he was coming out a Fing Wyoming. 

 I was honestly surprised Lawrence had significantly less games than Hurts as I felt like he was in college forever.

1 minute ago, wussbasket said:

 I was honestly surprised Lawrence had significantly less games than Hurts as I felt like he was in college forever.

Probably feels that way because the media has been following him since high school. 

Just now, Ace Nova said:

Probably feels that way because the media has been following him since high school. 

Exactly what I was coming to chime in. 

SIDE NOTE: Could Davis Mills end up being good? 14 college games, then he puts up 300+ against Belichick in a competitive game? That’s impressive.

1 hour ago, greend said:

Watkins and Smith are open a freaking ton. Hurts can't find or hit them. Sorry but your narrative is incorrect. Goedert does need some work on his hands but is still a very good option.

Not disagreeing that Hurts misses some reads, may be secondary reads because we don’t know the call.  Heck, we don’t even know if they ran the correct routes.  That said, his slowness to pull the trigger frustrates all of us. But Watkins being open is because the safety is sneaking on Smith.  Watkins issue that had him so low in the draft is that he basket catches and has inconsistent hands. It could be that Hurts doesn’t yet trust Watkins.  It may be that the coaches don’t yet trust Watkins. 

 I looked at those three "missed touchdowns”.  I agree he was open on the first, but again, I don’t know what the call was.  He really isn’t open on the second film clip until Hurts commits to throwing elsewhere.  On the third, by the time he is open, Hurts is in no position to throw the ball.

Look, Hurts is nowhere close to as good as some suggest but he isn’t as awful as some think he is.  Somewhere in the bottom third.  Better than all the touted QBs in last year’s draft though, at this point.  But replacing Hurts alone, as you suggested yesterday doesn’t immediately make this team a Super Bowl contender. 

11 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Where did I say anything about Allen or Wyoming in my post?

I said that these top collegiate football teams do not give a F about developing QBs for the NFL. They are not sitting there training them on how to break down or read a defense. They are all about winning and that is it. They will change the offense accordingly and most of their QBs are athletic one read QBs.

However, if you want to talk about Allen and Wyoming then you have to know that Allen was there for 3 years and Wyoming's football program ran a pro style offense. I would say that Josh Allen had better training at Wyoming then QBs like Mac Jones, Jalen Hurts and Justin Fields got from their college experience. You are obsessed about the name of the college or the coach, but not the actually experience that the QB has had. There is a HUGE discrepancy between running a one read, RPO offense and running a west coast pro style offense in college regardless of who the coach is.

Just because he played in a pro offense does not mean the coaching was better at Wyoming. You have better coaching at Alabama and Oklahoma. Just cause he played in that offense does that mean the coaching was good. They have much better facilities. Everything at their disposal to make the jump to the NFL.

The one thing Josh Allen head over Jalen hurts was he played in a pro style offense. Everything else to him was a disadvantage. Talent around was a disadvantage. The coaching that he was getting with a disadvantage. The facilities were disadvantage. Playing in the University of Wyoming and not a premier program with a disadvantage.

and just so you know because I have friends on the University of Arizona coaching staff and have had some also under Rich Rod and the drunk Kevin sumlin as well. if you told them they werent there helping those kids develop so they can make it to the NFL and be able to stick they would laugh in your face. Yes winning is very important to them. also important that coaches (specifically assistants) getting guys to the next level and develop as prospects. Because that gets them their next job that’s usually a better job that pays them more and can advance themselves in the field.

20 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I don’t agree with you. I don’t think Jeffrey lurie and Howie Roseman are just gonna sit on their hands and go into next season not trying to be aggressive in the veteran quarterback market. It is the number one position that they value and they covet. So if there’s a player that they believe is on the market or in the draft that could be a franchise quarterback for them for now in the foreseeable future they will be aggressive in that.

That said I don’t see them being able to pull the trigger on a veteran quarterback. Unless Wilson and Watson make it perfectly clear they really want to come here. I’m not so sure that’s going to be the case and I’m not so sure some other teams won’t overpay where the value doesn’t match what the eagles are willing to pay. 

like you said the trust factor with  coaching staff  with developing a QB isn’t where i was with Frank and Doug. Because they don’t have nearly as much background that Doug and Frank Reich had in the league and at the particular position. My thought when they hired Doug and Frank was at least Carson would get some of the best knowledge about playing the position at the NFL level since both of those guys were in the league whether back up or starter for years and had a bunch of knowledge playing with some of the best QBs to ever do it. So that was huge in my opinion when they hired doug and Frank and then went all in on Carson. Even if they had to eventually fire Doug and remove Frank they were still going to help a young quarterback in his development as they been through it all in the NFL at the position. You really don’t have that on this coaching staff to that level. 

to me they really need to go to Nick Sirianni and ask him what quarterback does he want to go into the future with. If it’s hurts then that’s who he’s tied too. If it’s not then you try to be aggressive in getting the quarterback he does want. Because I need to see him doing the offense the way he ideally wants to do it to maximize his coaching ability long term. Not morphing it into something completely different just make it work for that year. 

I don't think he said they wouldn't be aggressive going into next season.  He said they would use "EVERY" opportunity to upgrade the position.  I think that means the veteran QBs.  I don't think there's a veteran FA that they will look at as an upgrade.  The only real possibility is Jameis Winston.  I don't think he would be an upgrade.  In terms of trades, there are 2 tiers, the Wilson, Watson or Rodgers vs. the Carr or Cousins.  I don't know that either QB in the second tier is going to be available. I don't think the Eagles would be willing to trade for either.   I think it's likely that both Wilson and Watson will be traded. I am not as convinced on Rodgers.  I would have to think the Eagles will be in on both Watson and Wilson. I don't know that either are that interested in the Eagles.  My sense would be that Wilson may be more interested if he wants to play behind a better o-line.  Watson may be going to the Giants if they hire Flores.  

I don't think if they're not able to land a veteran they are necessarily in on a prospect.  My worry is that they fall in love with a prospect that's an upgrade over Hurts but not really a franchise QB.  A trade up for a qb in this class, would be a mistake.  Sure Strong, Corral and Pickett all look better than Hurts as a passer.  I don't think that means they are good enough to be a franchise QB.  The team doesn't fix the problem by drafting the wrong player.  If they're not convinced about Hurts there's no harm in waiting another season while improving the rest of the team for a better opportunity to address the position.  

4 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Not disagreeing that Hurts misses some reads, may be secondary reads because we don’t know the call.  Heck, we don’t even know if they ran the correct routes.  That said, his slowness to pull the trigger frustrates all of us. But Watkins being open is because the safety is sneaking on Smith.  Watkins issue that had him so low in the draft is that he basket catches and has inconsistent hands. It could be that Hurts doesn’t yet trust Watkins.  It may be that the coaches don’t yet trust Watkins. 

 I looked at those three "missed touchdowns”.  I agree he was open on the first, but again, I don’t know what the call was.  He really isn’t open on the second film clip until Hurts commits to throwing elsewhere.  On the third, by the time he is open, Hurts is in no position to throw the ball.

Look, Hurts is nowhere close to as good as some suggest but he isn’t as awful as some think he is.  Somewhere in the bottom third.  Better than all the touted QBs in last year’s draft though, at this point.  But replacing Hurts alone, as you suggested yesterday doesn’t immediately make this team a Super Bowl contender. 

Disagree. Lawrence is clearly better than Hurts, the numbers be damned. Davis Mills is better, and has numbers to support it.

Look, Hurts is a better runner than all but Lamar when it comes to QBs. But when it comes to actually throwing the ball, which most of us place a much higher importance on, Hurts fails miserably. 

In this day and age of NFL passing offenses, to have a measly 16 TDs in 15 games is just unacceptable for a starting QB. It just is. And you can try and add in his rushing TDs, but he's a freaking QB. I want my QB to at least throw for 2 TDs per game on average. 

Id put Davis Mills a neck above Hurts and Tebow for sure

Mahomes, Allen, Wilson, I could go on and on.....all of these guys are 100% capable of running just as, if not more effectively than Hurts. 

They just only do it when they need to, not immediately after their predetermined single read isnt wide open.

2 hours ago, Original Sin said:

Makes you wonder if Carson will be back in Indy 

I'm pretty sure he will.  

Unless there is a crazy opportunity to get someone better like Rodgers, Watson, etc.

2 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I don't think he said they wouldn't be aggressive going into next season.  He said they would use "EVERY" opportunity to upgrade the position.  I think that means the veteran QBs.  I don't think there's a veteran FA that they will look at as an upgrade.  The only real possibility is Jameis Winston.  I don't think he would be an upgrade.  In terms of trades, there are 2 tiers, the Wilson, Watson or Rodgers vs. the Carr or Cousins.  I don't know that either QB in the second tier is going to be available. I don't think the Eagles would be willing to trade for either.   I think it's likely that both Wilson and Watson will be traded. I am not as convinced on Rodgers.  I would have to think the Eagles will be in on both Watson and Wilson. I don't know that either are that interested in the Eagles.  My sense would be that Wilson may be more interested if he wants to play behind a better o-line.  Watson may be going to the Giants if they hire Flores.  

I don't think if they're not able to land a veteran they are necessarily in on a prospect.  My worry is that they fall in love with a prospect that's an upgrade over Hurts but not really a franchise QB.  A trade up for a qb in this class, would be a mistake.  Sure Strong, Corral and Pickett all look better than Hurts as a passer.  I don't think that means they are good enough to be a franchise QB.  The team doesn't fix the problem by drafting the wrong player.  If they're not convinced about Hurts there's no harm in waiting another season while improving the rest of the team for a better opportunity to address the position.  

I’m not so sure Brian Flores is getting that job in New York. It seems like that’s daboll‘s job to lose. They hired their GM and he a couple hours later interviewed daboll for that job. And apparently he was instrumental in getting Daboll from Alabama to Buffalo and worked with daboll with the dolphins years ago (that part i heard on Sirius when a bills beat reporter was discussing it). I think that’s gonna be the coach. I think they’re gonna go with Daniel Jones again because they probably believe daboll could get the most out of them like he did with Josh Allen. There was also the rumor that Mara didn’t want Deshaun Watson whatsoever according to their beat writers. So take it for what that’s worth

I don’t know how the Eagles feel about the quarterbacks in this draft class. Based off what mosher and caplan were saying the other day their sense is that they aren’t that high. Then again that could change. I’d agree i think Wilson and watson are the two targets they’d be most aggressive about. Frankly i don’t think they get either one of those two. 

I think Rodgers , Wilson and Carr could all be on the move. .

2 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

I'm pretty sure he will.  

Unless there is a crazy opportunity to get someone better like Rodgers, Watson, etc.

Can’t see the Texans trading watson inside the division unless it’s a massive overpay which right now the colts don’t have the draft capital to give them a first this year. They probably could get in the Jimmy G sweepstakes if they wanted though which likely would be less than that cost but still rather high. 

4 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

I think Rodgers , Wilson and Carr could all be on the move. .

I think rodgers after that loss is going to want out. I’ve felt his future was determined on the outcome of the packers season. Anything less than a SB i thought he’d want out especially given the cap situation and how that team could look next year.

that said if I’m Green Bay I’ve a hard time dealing him if Tom Brady retires (i don’t think he does) and Russell Wilson gets traded to the AFC. At that point what quarterback in the NFC scares you enough to think that you wouldn’t be one of if not the favorites to go to the Super Bowl? The next three best quarterbacks would be Dak Prescott, Matt Stafford and Kyler Murray. rams are likely losing obj, Miller and whitworth might retire. TBH I think the time for the Rams to win it is this year because next year it might be a bigger uphill battle due to roster construction. 

2 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Can’t see the Texans trading watson inside the division unless it’s a massive overpay which right now the colts don’t have the draft capital to give them a first this year. They probably could get in the Jimmy G sweepstakes if they wanted though which likely would be less than that cost but still rather high. 

That's right, I forgot for a second that Watson played in the same division.  

Colts could be a dark horse candidate for Rodgers.  Not sure if it could happen cap wise and what they'd have to trade for him.

50 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Agree with the bolded.

 

I wasn't on board with Wentz when the team decided to move up to 2 to get him, but I gave the new coaching staff the benefit of the doubt.  Almost every HC is tied to the QB position.  If the QB works out, the HC will last.  If not, they are usually blown out together.   The triumvirate of Pederson, Reich, and DeFilippo all were QBs and were the ones making this decision.  So, I trusted them.  And it worked out great... for a while.  And I was all on board - 100%.   (***I still think about what could have been without the ACL injury in 2017, which again might be a big reason I am against a QB designed run as a part of the game plan.  He wasn't even hit 'hard'... just awkwardly when the ACL/LCL injury occurred.  So the idea of Hurts being 'built different' or 'avoids the big hit' means nothing to me.  Wentz avoided the big contact... but left his legs exposed.  It's just a matter of time with Hurts before he gets hit the wrong way, and that risk rises every time he runs, because he won't get the same protections as being in the pocket and defensive players will look to 'make him pay' for running.***) 

But, what happened when Wentz started to turn sour?  The HC was gone... as well as the QB.  Very few HCs stick with a franchise if the QB position is a revolving door.  It just doesn't work.   Chip had 4 QBs start in his 3 years here... Vick, Foles, Bradford and Sanchez.  Rhodes during his 4 years... Cunningham, Peete, T. Detmer, Hoying, K. Detmer.   Andy lasted because he got McNabb and stuck with him from 1999 - 2009.  By that time, he'd proven himself, but from 2010 to 2012... they had 3 different QBs... Kolb, Vick, and Foles.  The result... he was gone.  

Sirianni won't last here as the HC if he doesn't have 'his' QB.  He came thinking it would be Wentz.  Then inherited Hurts and tried to fit the square peg into the round hole for half a season.  Then revamped the offense, beat up on the weak sisters of the poor teams and seemed to have turned a corner with his QB, only to have the truth exposed again in the playoffs by the Bucs - the only 'legit' team they had faced in nearly 10 weeks.   So, they can roll with Hurts... hope he can improve all these weaknesses (unlikely) and continue to beat up on the bad teams, and continue to look over matched by the top half of the league.  That's not good enough for this owner though.  He doesn't like being #12-18 in the NFL.  But, that's pretty much where Hurts puts you... until he loses his greatest strength, which is likely the first thing any QB loses... his legs.

So, I fully expect that the team will investigate EVERY avenue to upgrade the QB position... if not this year, then doing everything they can to flip resources to the 2023 draft to try again that year.  They might talk themselves into one of these QBs and fall prey to the classic NFL trap for teams without a QB.  Hopefully they don't.  But, I don't trust this group of coaches the way that I trusted the Pederson/Reich/DeFilippo group.  Sirianni was a WR coach.  Steichen is the only one that has the type of pedigree I would look for.  He was a QB coach with the Chargers.  Johnson is the current QB coach, and he's been the QB coach for a while, but before he got to the Eagles... only at the collegiate level, and the difference between QB at the college level and the NFL level is likely the greatest difference of any position in any sport moving from amateur to professional.  I can't trust Johnson the same way I trusted DeFilippo.  I could maybe trust Steichen the way I trusted Reich (though Reich's resume as a backup QB in the NFL for forever still tips the scales in his favor), and I can't trust Sirianni the same way I trusted Pederson... for a similar reason as Reich over Steichen.

 

We'll see what happens this offseason, and what happens this offseason will have long reaching implications for this franchise.  If they get it right, they could catapult themselves towards or into the top tier of the league... if they get it wrong, they are in danger of becoming the type of team that we laugh at.

Agreed, and that might be why he was never hired.  But, it seems to me that there's always a window.  Strike while the iron is hot seems to be the way it goes.  

I don't believe many thought that Wentz was going to be here very long at that point. It was already very clear he wanted out by the time Siri was hired and that he wasn't living up to his expectations. I suspect they all knew that it would be very likely that we would be parting ways with Wentz sooner rather than later. Based on everything I've heard it sure sounds like one of the reasons they hired Siri was because he was onboard with a long term rebuild plan. I don't believe they ever intended, or at least expected, to come out of that rebuild with Wentz.  I believe Siri's franchise QB was always to be determined somewhere down the road. Based on Lurie's past comments I think it's safe to assume they had a 5 year plan in mind with no expectations of being serious contenders in the first 2-3 years. I agree they are not in a win now mode of thinking and are only going to make the moves that offer them the best chance to improve and win in the long run.

Damn. There is at least 10 good prospects for qb in 2023