25 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

 I was honestly surprised Lawrence had significantly less games than Hurts as I felt like he was in college forever.

It felt that way because he started so young at Clemson and won a title against bama his freshman year. Frankly if the NFL didn’t have that rule in place and he would’ve been able to make made eligible after his freshman year there’s a chance he goes no. 1 and at worse probably top 5. 

 

13 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Just because he played in a pro offense does not mean the coaching was better at Wyoming. You have better coaching at Alabama and Oklahoma. Just cause he played in that offense does that mean the coaching was good. They have much better facilities. Everything at their disposal to make the jump to the NFL.

The one thing Josh Allen head over Jalen hurts was he played in a pro style offense. Everything else to him was a disadvantage. Talent around was a disadvantage. The coaching that he was getting with a disadvantage. The facilities were disadvantage. Playing in the University of Wyoming and not a premier program with a disadvantage.

and just so you know because I have friends on the University of Arizona coaching staff and have had some also under Rich Rod and the drunk Kevin sumlin as well. if you told them they werent there helping those kids develop so they can make it to the NFL and be able to stick they would laugh in your face. Yes winning is very important to them. also important that coaches (specifically assistants) getting guys to the next level and develop as prospects. Because that gets them their next job that’s usually a better job that pays them more and can advance themselves in the field.

You are missing the entire point of all of this.

When you run a one read RPO style offense, which is catered to QBs that are athletic, do you think that they are taught how to progress through their reads and are taught how to break down a defense on tape? Do you think that the QB coaches at Oklahoma/Alabama and others are really spending that quality time with this kids to teach them those fundamentals?

They are not - they are teaching them how to run that specific offense and that is it. That is why so many of these kids are not ready for the NFL for the first couple of years that they are in the league. They all have to be broken down and retaught everything that they learned in college. NFL teams take these kids on because they are athletic and they feel that they can teach them the proper way to go through your progression, read a defense, audible at the line of scrimmage, etc.

When a kids goes to a college that runs a west coast, pro style offense, they are taught in college, how to do all of those things. They always have a leg up on the competition because of it. The problem is that a lot of these top end colleges do not run that type of offense, because it is all about winning championships, so they run whatever they can that helps them win.

Did Josh Allen has inferior talent around him in college? Absolutely. Did he have a leg up in the most important part of the game, the mental part, because he went to Wyoming instead of a place like Ohio State? Absolutely. If he went to Ohio State or Oklahoma or any of these other colleges, they would have used his legs in the game and made him into a RPO style QB which would have made his transition to the NFL a much longer process.

17 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Mahomes, Allen, Wilson, I could go on and on.....all of these guys are 100% capable of running just as, if not more effectively than Hurts. 

They just only do it when they need to, not immediately after their predetermined single read isnt wide open.

Yep.  Allen ran for 21 less yard than Hurts, while passing for 1263 more yards.

5 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

When you run a one read RPO style offense, which is catered to QBs that are athletic, do you think that they are taught how to progress through their reads and are taught how to break down a defense on tape? Do you think that the QB coaches at Oklahoma/Alabama and others are really spending that quality time with this kids to teach them those fundamentals?

Mac Jones looks pretty fundamentally sound to me.

2 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

That's right, I forgot for a second that Watson played in the same division.  

Colts could be a dark horse candidate for Rodgers.  Not sure if it could happen cap wise and what they'd have to trade for him.

Rodgers would’ve if they didn’t deal their picks for Carson. I think the price is going to be high especially for a team like Denver who wants to get back to the playoffs and likely thinks they are just a QB away.

To me the Colts make more sense to be in a market like Jimmy G. So I think they probably can pull that deal off with some maneuvering. However how much of an upgrade is Jimmy G over Carson Wentz? Frankly I think the colts ultimately just gonna go back with Carson Wentz cause he’s gonna be the best option for 2022. If I were them I would try to accumulate draft capital for 2023, add a couple WRs to go with Pittman but also fix some of the defensive problems. Cause much crap as we give Carson Wentz that defense against the Jaguars was terrible. Trevor Lawrence start of the game 14-14 and moved the ball up and down the field against the Colts defense. 

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I think rodgers after that loss is going to want out. I’ve felt his future was determined on the outcome of the packers season. Anything less than a SB i thought he’d want out especially given the cap situation and how that team could look next year.

that said if I’m Green Bay I’ve a hard time dealing him if Tom Brady retires (i don’t think he does) and Russell Wilson gets traded to the AFC. At that point what quarterback in the NFC scares you enough to think that you wouldn’t be one of if not the favorites to go to the Super Bowl? The next three best quarterbacks would be Dak Prescott, Matt Stafford and Kyler Murray. rams are likely losing obj, Miller and whitworth might retire. TBH I think the time for the Rams to win it is this year because next year it might be a bigger uphill battle due to roster construction. 

Heard this on the radio and it's a great point.  Maybe Rodgers just needs a change of scenery like Brady did.  The guy has been in GB forever.  Been to NFCCG games on the road and at Lambeau and still has 1 SB to show.  That SB win he had 4 very good WRs to throw to.  It's not like GB has surrounded him with garbage either.  Maybe it's just time to move on and could be good for both sides.

Both Rodgers and GB are to blame for failing to win another SB. Aaron shouldn't be blame-free.  He's come up short several times in big games.

1 minute ago, downundermike said:

Yep.  Allen ran for 21 less yard than Hurts, while passing for 1263 more yards.

Mac Jones looks pretty fundamentally sound to me.

Have you talked to some Patriot fans over how fundamentally sound he is? Especially after the way he looked in the last four games of the year and then the trouncing he got in the playoffs?

They are hanging on by the fact that he is a rookie, but a lot of them are concerned that he is what he is, that he can't get better and teams have figured him out.

12 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

You are missing the entire point of all of this.

When you run a one read RPO style offense, which is catered to QBs that are athletic, do you think that they are taught how to progress through their reads and are taught how to break down a defense on tape? Do you think that the QB coaches at Oklahoma/Alabama and others are really spending that quality time with this kids to teach them those fundamentals?

They are not - they are teaching them how to run that specific offense and that is it. That is why so many of these kids are not ready for the NFL for the first couple of years that they are in the league. They all have to be broken down and retaught everything that they learned in college. NFL teams take these kids on because they are athletic and they feel that they can teach them the proper way to go through your progression, read a defense, audible at the line of scrimmage, etc.

When a kids goes to a college that runs a west coast, pro style offense, they are taught in college, how to do all of those things. They always have a leg up on the competition because of it. The problem is that a lot of these top end colleges do not run that type of offense, because it is all about winning championships, so they run whatever they can that helps them win.

Did Josh Allen has inferior talent around him in college? Absolutely. Did he have a leg up in the most important part of the game, the mental part, because he went to Wyoming instead of a place like Ohio State? Absolutely. If he went to Ohio State or Oklahoma or any of these other colleges, they would have used his legs in the game and made him into a RPO style QB which would have made his transition to the NFL a much longer process.

Just as a curious question do you think the coaching at Oklahoma and Alabama which is better isn’t teaching Jalen hurts mechanics? One of the biggest issues with hurts are his mechanics at time. I’m guaranteeing you at Alabama and Oklahoma regardless of what offense they are running they are teaching him consistently about mechanics. i’m gonna go on a limb because I know what the University of Arizona that something they harp on every single practice dating back to even before Rich rod with Mike stoops.

Yes he has a leg up because he has played in a pro style offense. He has a leg down because the coaching staff he’s getting taught by is nowhere close to the level of those teams.  And the assistant coaches aren’t even on the same planet. I think you overwait the fact you played in a pro style offense at Wyoming. This is a pro offense and he’s doing it in a power five conference with superior coaching. He’s doing it in a small school with inferior coaching and inferior facilities.

again you could believe whatever you want about the coaches in college are doing this and they’re not doing that. I’ll trust the coaches that I’ve met over the last 20 years at the University of Arizona that have told me what they do with their players to get them ready for the next level.

I keep thinking that the best place for Rodgers if he is not staying in Green Bay would be the Pittsburgh Steelers.

They have a ton of cap space, Ben is retiring, they have a good nucleus of players on that team, and they can afford to give up some draft picks for him. He would be going from one football royalty to another.

16 minutes ago, 315Eagles said:

Heard this on the radio and it's a great point.  Maybe Rodgers just needs a change of scenery like Brady did.  The guy has been in GB forever.  Been to NFCCG games on the road and at Lambeau and still has 1 SB to show.  That SB win he had 4 very good WRs to throw to.  It's not like GB has surrounded him with garbage either.  Maybe it's just time to move on and could be good for both sides.

Both Rodgers and GB are to blame for failing to win another SB. Aaron shouldn't be blame-free.  He's come up short several times in big games.

I would argue the weakest point of the Green Bay Packers right now is their wide receivers. Davante Adams aside, the rest of the receivers and tight ends in that NFC divisional game had 2 receptions for 6 yards and a fumble. That’s pretty horrific. It was basically Aaron Jones or Adam or the Packers didn’t do anything. 

Rogers is definitely the blame in part of this. He could’ve taken less money at times to get better players come in. He also has had some bad games like SF and atlanta a couple years back. But the Packers aren’t innocent in this either. They knew he had limited time left at his age and decided we’re just gonna take a back up quarterback in the first round for the next 3 years. Which on their part I can kind of understand cause he was older likely closer to the end and it’s not like he hasn’t had some injuries. But on the other hand I can see it from his vantage point where last year (against Bucs) if they had a better corner than Kevin King or they had a better wide receiver out there with Adams maybe they beat the Buccaneers.

This year he didn’t play well in that game but to me I don’t know what Matt lefleur did after that first drive. They should’ve kept feeding Devante Adams. the Niners had no answer to him. And ditto with Aaron Jones in the passing game. Additionally I don’t know what the Packers are doing with their special teams but they seem to always have a special teams blunder that cost them big. Let’s not forget it for the Seahawks in the NFC title game and the guy couldn’t recover an onside kick and it wound up costing on the game. This one, a block field goal, blocked punt return for a touchdown and only had 10 guys on the field for the FG at the end of the game. Also I would add they need to figure out someway somehow to add speed Internet team. They are very slow methodical team. And I think they could go to another level if they had more speed elements and more tempo to that offense. The problem with MVS is he’s always hurt and he’s inconsistent catching the ball even when he is healthy. But he’s about the only one with that type of speed on the roster. 

41 minutes ago, SB52 said:

SIDE NOTE: Could Davis Mills end up being good? 14 college games, then he puts up 300+ against Belichick in a competitive game? That’s impressive.

Some draft pundits had Davis Mills as a late first round prospect.  He'd definitely be a first round pick in this draft.

I didn't like his film all that much when I looked at it, but he has the physical tools to develop.

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Accepting coaching and putting that coaching into practice aren't the same thing.   We keep seeing him leave perfect pockets, huge clean pockets.   So, yeah, he might 'accept the coaching', but if it doesn't manifest itself on the field, what's the difference?

 

And Wentz did accept the coaching, at least as we saw it play out on the field, in 2017 he was much better in these areas than he was in 2016.  After DeFilippo left, that changed.  Granted, there were reports that he didn't like the way DeFilippo coached him, but he did put it into use on the field.  That trio of Pederson/Reich/DeFilippo just worked with him.   When it was just Doug with Press Taylor and Mike Groh, it didn't.   

Yup, we gave Reich all the credit but DeFlippo was they real guy that made Wentz. He might not have liked the hard coaching style that Flip used, but it got the best out of him.

4 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

That's why my plan is the prudent one and one where more people will come to agree with.  Much like my take on Reagor and Hurts right when they were drafted.  

 

That Plan?

Draft 2 best defensive players available with two of the 3 firsts.

Try and trade the other first (highest of the 3) for draft equity in 2023.  

Grin and bear it with Hurts/Minshew for 2022.

Go get your QB in 2023...whatever it takes.  

I’m right with you. I’m ready to take some lumps next year 

19 minutes ago, downundermike said:

 

The Eagles drafted Hurts at #53 when they already had a $128M contract on their current starter at the time.  Yes, they would.

If Sirianni tells Howie he's gotten all he can get out of Hurts, there will be a move made -- whether it's draft, trade, or anyway possible.

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Why are you intent on putting words in my mouth?  Did I say there isn't any available?

 

Which investment would you prefer?

 

A Rod- Malcontent who is steps away from retirement.

R Wilson- Malcontent who is P Whipped and older.

D Watson- Bad guy/teammate who hasn't played in well over a year?

D Carr- ?  Really?

 

I'm curious what your master plan is for QB and our firsts rather than using at least two on BDPA and maybe trading one back to 2023?

 

22 minutes ago, downundermike said:

 

Well we do need a cheap backup quarterback since minshew is gone at the end of next year. So should really invest one in a second round pick….

Reflecting on 2017 and  SB52 this am. How is it we got lucky enough to not have to play Wilson, Rodgers or Brees in the playoffs in 17? nI mean we faced Matt RYan and Case Keenum. 

Had we faced any one of Rodgers, Brees or Wilson,  on a decent team that year in the playoffs? We would not have made it to the SB. 

6 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Just as a curious question do you think the coaching at Oklahoma and Alabama which is better isn’t teaching Jalen hurts mechanics? One of the biggest issues with hurts are his mechanics at time. I’m guaranteeing you at Alabama and Oklahoma regardless of what offense they are running they are teaching him consistently about mechanics. i’m gonna go on a limb because I know what the University of Arizona that something they harp on every single practice dating back to even before Rich rock with Mike stoops.

Yes he has a leg up because he has played in a pro style offense. He has a leg down because the coaching staff he’s getting taught by is nowhere close to the level of those teams.  And the assistant coaches aren’t even on the same planet. 

again you could believe whatever you want about the coaches in college are doing this and they’re not doing that. I’ll trust the coaches that I’ve met over the last 20 years at the University of Arizona that have told me what they do with their players to get them ready for the next level.

It's a fair question and one I don't have an answer for as I do not know. I do believe that these coaches in the top college do not really care but I also understand why you feel different. 

 

3 minutes ago, uncphillyfan said:

I’m right with you. I’m ready to take some lumps next year 

I seriously cant go into another year with Hurts as QB1. Just cant. Watching us waste Goedert, Smith and Watkins prime years of their career?  Nah.

We may not get our long term Qb of the future till 2023 draft, but we have to have a better passer throwing the ball.

1 minute ago, Ipiggles said:

Reflecting on 2017 and  SB52 this am. How is it we got lucky enough to not have to play Wilson, Rodgers or Brees in the playoffs in 17? nI mean we faced Matt RYan and Case Keenum. 

Had we faced any one of Rodgers, Brees or Wilson,  on a decent team that year in the playoffs? We would not have made it to the SB. 

We were not gonna lose. That was divine intervention 

Just now, Ipiggles said:

I seriously cant go into another year with Hurts as QB1. Just cant. Watching us waste Goedert, Smith and Watkins prime years of their career?  Nah.

We may not get our long term Qb of the future till 2023 draft, but we have to have a better passer throwing the ball.

Leash will be 6 weeks. If Hurts still blows, insert Gardner

14 hours ago, austinfan said:

Raises an interesting question. Kelce struggles with Vea b/c of his power.

Seumalo is sorta of a compromise, about 310 lbs, more able to hold his on but won't give you the same 2nd level movement (who will?).

Dickerson would be the power center, he's so strong he can stalmate and even move a NT like Vea.

Wonder if you trained a couple guys at center, would you pursue matchups against teams with extreme NTs.

I've been chewing on the type of center we want after Kelce. A lot of that is dictated by the approach defenses are taking these days and I want to get into that. Those of you who pay attention to defensive alignments have probably noticed the terms 2i and 4i frequently. Georgia plays it. Alabama plays it. The Bucs play it. And...the Eagles play it, though not all the time.

What it is is a 3-4 defense with a nose tackle and two defensive linemen with their hands down. The NT plays head up on the center (0 Technique) and the two DL play on the inside shoulders of the OT. Head-up on the OT would be the 4 technique, hence the term 4i for 4 technique shaded inside the OT.

Here we go.

First off, this is not really new. Buddy Ryan used this a lot in his so-called Bear Defense and his 46 Defense, essentially covering the interior OL.

There are a lot of parts to this. Note that we stack our MLB directly behind the NT. This gives him a 2-way go. Depending on which way the play goes he can scrape off the NT. The other LB plays strong side. Because the NT is directly over the C, the C cannot climb to the second level to block the MLB. Also, because the NT covers him, it is extremely difficult for the C to double-team with either of his guards. He's got the NT in his face and the other DLs are two steps away. If he does go for the double-team, the backside G has to make an extremely difficult scoop block on the NT. Then there's the Power, a play we run a lot. It basically involves the C and one G to block down and the offside G to pull around and lead the RB into the B gap (between G and T). This is tough duty for the playside T because the DL across from his inside shoulder has the B gap covered and the MLB is stacked behind him to clean up. It can be done but it takes mobile linemen to do it.

Before I get back to blocking patterns I want to add that this defensive alignment is really designed to clog the middle with only four guys against five offensive linemen. If you can stymie the opponent's inside run game with just four guys you have an extra defender to handle outside runs and to drop in coverage. Think of how the Bucs handled our OZ a couple of weeks ago. Their LBs were clean to get outside and they're so fast that we couldn't outflank them. There are basically four gaps on the OL - the two A gaps and the two B gaps. The DTs cover the B gaps, the NT and the MLB cover the A gaps. For the most part, Kelce couldn't get out to the edge because he had Vea in his face. This defensive front reduced his mobility.

This is not to say that this front is a be-all and end-all. If you can block the NT with your C the whole thing falls apart. Another play that really works is the split zone, where your TE (or FB if you have one) can lead the RB around the edge and, because the DT is on the inside shoulder of the OT, the OT has natural leverage on him. Further, if you have OTs who can run, you can pull them across the formation since the G on their inside shoulder has natural leverage on the DT playing the 4i.

That bolded comment brings me back to Kelce's replacement. If we have a C who can block Vita Vea or Jordan Davis or whoever, we can handle this front. It's why I have second thoughts about Linderbaum. It's why Dickerson does make sense at C. Of course, if you do move Dickerson to C you sacrifice that massive left side.

My personal preference after Kelce retires is to have a bigger C. He doesn't have to be huge but I do want one who won't always need help against bigger NTs. The smaller he is, the bigger the Gs have to be. There's a trade-off between size and mobility. I'd love to see Kenyon Green at RG with Seumalo at C. That would be a helluva line.

4 minutes ago, Ipiggles said:

Reflecting on 2017 and  SB52 this am. How is it we got lucky enough to not have to play Wilson, Rodgers or Brees in the playoffs in 17? nI mean we faced Matt RYan and Case Keenum. 

Had we faced any one of Rodgers, Brees or Wilson,  on a decent team that year in the playoffs? We would not have made it to the SB. 

Brees and the Saints should have took care of Minnesota.  Even so, New Orleans coming to Philly would have been tough for them as they don't play as well outside their dome.  If it was at the Saints, they probably beat us.....maybe.

2 minutes ago, uncphillyfan said:

Leash will be 6 weeks. If Hurts still blows, insert Gardner

Nah if they go into 2022 with Hurts as QB1- they will force him in all year as long as healthy to preserve what ever percieved value they can possibly get for him in return. Just like Reagor and JJAW. They forced those guys into playing, even though Watkins and Ward were clearly better. 

37 minutes ago, Thing3 said:

I don't believe many thought that Wentz was going to be here very long at that point. It was already very clear he wanted out by the time Siri was hired and that he wasn't living up to his expectations. I suspect they all knew that it would be very likely that we would be parting ways with Wentz sooner rather than later. Based on everything I've heard it sure sounds like one of the reasons they hired Siri was because he was onboard with a long term rebuild plan. I don't believe they ever intended, or at least expected, to come out of that rebuild with Wentz.  I believe Siri's franchise QB was always to be determined somewhere down the road. Based on Lurie's past comments I think it's safe to assume they had a 5 year plan in mind with no expectations of being serious contenders in the first 2-3 years. I agree they are not in a win now mode of thinking and are only going to make the moves that offer them the best chance to improve and win in the long run.

We'll see if that's the case.  They might just get anxious again and act foolishly.