3 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

I like Gardner Minshew as a player/QB.  I think he's a currently a solid #2, someone you could "plug & play" and could win you a few games.   His scouting report, from what I've read, is his consistency.   I'd have no issues keeping him on the roster "to develop".  At the same time, I think Hurts has also shown "enough" to continue to develop.   It's not a "this or that" issue for me.  

And the main reason it's not a "this or that" type of issue for me...and I touched on this earlier...is the reason that I'm not against them drafting QB's "to develop".  Say you have a 60% success rate (at best)...that means you could always have at least 2 (1st -2nd round pick) QB's on your roster.    I think there's a ton of "logic" behind this type of strategy.   

Nah.  Both have shown that neither is a long term answer as QB1.  They are both bridge QBs, or backup QBs.  But, I find it funny that many of the people who will talk about how much better Hurts can become dismiss Minshew out of hand, yet Minshew is clearly the more developed passer.

16 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I am disparaging folks, LIKE YOURSELF, who want to point to analytics and stats when trying to make Jalen Hurts out to be better than he actually is.  Yes....that's what I am doing.  You can thumb your noise all you want at the idea of actually watching a guy play rather than just pointing to the stats.  I guess all of those scouts at the combine and in Mobile should go home and not bother, right? Just check the stats of the college guys coming out and go from there.  

 

Since you want to go there....I will repeat some what I have said about a 1/2 dozen times in here since he was drafted.  

My issues with Hurts....

- Poor field vision, in college and the pros.

- Not able to process information at a quick rate, in college and the pros.  

- Lacks the ability to adjust plays pre-snap based on defensive reads.

- Has a tell when running a RPO or Zone read by squatting in shotgun, which prepares him for the mesh.

- Lacks the consistency to reset and swipe his his body to get on platform to throw, while running to his left.  One notable time he did it properly was on a pass play to Goedert in Denver.  

- Has over-hand elongated delivery (like Cam Newton) which leads to inaccurate throws and also makes it easier for defenders to break on the ball.  

- That poor delivery is because he LACKS THE ARM TALENT to throw with a more natural motion.  Meaning he is not able to throw from the proper arm slot.  

- Is not able to zip the ball to outside 20 yard or more unless he is running to that part of the field.  (stationary like a pocket passer should be able to)

- Yes, he can throw the ball 60-65 yards down the field.  Most D2 and up QB's in college can heave the ball that far.  

- Is a running QB who will break down like all running QB's do.  

 

 

I like this but the top half would be nearly impossible for you to ascertain unless you have deep knowledge of NFL schemes, his playbook and his instructions from his coaches. 
 

The second half is probably more verifiable. Besides the last two points, can you provide outside sources that support your view based on his 2021 play?

2 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I would also add Josh Allen if you go look at the roster on offense of the Buffalo Bills when he got there they had bad wide receivers, a poor offensive line and mccoy was done as a rookie. This whole theory is like Jalen hurts is playing with the same team Josh Allen has. Jalen hurts has a top 5 oline, a better running game and capable receiving threats in goedert and smith. Josh Allen didn’t have that as a rookie. They upgrade his second year with Beasley and John brown but still were building their oline and RBs up. 

I would also add Josh Allen was way more raw of a prospect than Jalen hurts coming out of Wyoming. Even though hurts is 23, he played on 56 games in college at two of the best programs in the country. Josh Allen played in 27 at Wyoming. The jump from Wyoming and that talent they played comparatively to Oklahoma and Alabama is significantly bigger jump. Add on Josh Ellen might have a top five arm in the history of the NFL. That’s how elite his arm talent was coming out of college.

people wanna be like you have to give them time like Josh Allen and look what happens. Josh Rosen got one year and the organization knew he wasnt what they thought and they were right. Paxton lynch had 5 starts in two years and they figured out he wasn’t very good.  So sometimes you could get Josh allen reward allowing him to develop. And sometimes it might just be theyre not as good as you thought Josh Rosen and Paxton lynch. But nobody wants to mention those two quarterbacks who didn’t get the time because they knew they weren’t good enough

Josh Allen was a lion cub.   Jalen Hurts is a pet kitten.    Both are feline, but one can develop into king of the jungle... the other is just a pet that you keep around the house (if you are into cats).

Not all lion cubs make it to adulthood... but the ones that do, you stand back from when they do.  Most pet kittens make it to adulthood, because they are sheltered and protected much more, but never really develop into anything scary.

15 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Josh Allen started out with the physical tools though, he had the arm talent to make all the throws.

Hurts has mediocre arm talent.

Josh Allen might have top 5 arm talent in nfl history. Not his overall ability, just his arm. if you believe hurts is a similar prospect in terms of arm talent to Josh Allen then you never watched him at Wyoming. And most people did not because they never played anybody except for like three games and he was awful in games so probably thought he was overrated. But if you watched him play against some of the teams in his conference you’d see his arm was absolutely ridiculous.

The two things that scared people with him coming out was with his accuracy. Would it get better in the NFL against better talent even if he was given better talent.  Second was would the jump from Wyoming to nfl be too much and he’d under perform like he did against better competition in college. His arm talent was never questioned

23 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I am disparaging folks, LIKE YOURSELF, who want to point to analytics and stats when trying to make Jalen Hurts out to be better than he actually is.  Yes....that's what I am doing.  You can thumb your noise all you want at the idea of actually watching a guy play rather than just pointing to the stats.  I guess all of those scouts at the combine and in Mobile should go home and not bother, right? Just check the stats of the college guys coming out and go from there.  

 

Since you want to go there....I will repeat some what I have said about a 1/2 dozen times in here since he was drafted.  

My issues with Hurts....

- Poor field vision, in college and the pros.

- Not able to process information at a quick rate, in college and the pros.  

- Lacks the ability to adjust plays pre-snap based on defensive reads.

- Has a tell when running a RPO or Zone read by squatting in shotgun, which prepares him for the mesh.

- Lacks the consistency to reset and swipe his his body to get on platform to throw, while running to his left.  One notable time he did it properly was on a pass play to Goedert in Denver.  

- Has over-hand elongated delivery (like Cam Newton) which leads to inaccurate throws and also makes it easier for defenders to break on the ball.  

- That poor delivery is because he LACKS THE ARM TALENT to throw with a more natural motion.  Meaning he is not able to throw from the proper arm slot.  

- Is not able to zip the ball to outside 20 yard or more unless he is running to that part of the field.  (stationary like a pocket passer should be able to)

- Yes, he can throw the ball 60-65 yards down the field.  Most D2 and up QB's in college can heave the ball that far.  

- Is a running QB who will break down like all running QB's do.  

 

 

Hurts’ explanation of his play is why I don’t even pretend to think I can analyze good QB play. On its surface, it looks like Hurts didn’t have the field of vision nor the pre snap reading ability to find an open player.

However, based on his explanation, he was coached to progress through his reads in a very particular way. Sure he could have scrapped that plan post-snap, but I understand why he wants to do this precisely as requested.
 

Is this indicative of all of his bad plays against the Bucs, for example, probably not. But it also shows that humility is necessary in having a decent discussion about what we saw in 2021.

16 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah.  Both have shown that neither is a long term answer as QB1.  They are both bridge QBs, or backup QBs.  But, I find it funny that many of the people who will talk about how much better Hurts can become dismiss Minshew out of hand, yet Minshew is clearly the more developed passer.

He could be but you seem to dismiss mobility when looking at "developing QB's".  There are games we won thanks to Hurts' mobility that we would have not won with a less mobile QB this past season.  (784 yards rushing with 10 rushing TD's).

And whether or not having a "mobile" QB is a "long-term winning strategy" in the NFL is another debate.  Personally, I lean towards having a semi-mobile QB who is a good pocket passer.  (Most Super Bowls have been won by your proto-typical pocket passers).    That said, these types of QB's don't grow on trees.  So if the Eagles want to develop a mobile QB who they think they can develop into a better pocket passer, I'm not against that either.   

29 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

 

My issues with Hurts....

- Poor field vision, in college and the pros.

- Not able to process information at a quick rate, in college and the pros.  

- That poor delivery is because he LACKS THE ARM TALENT to throw with a more natural motion.  Meaning he is not able to throw from the proper arm slot.  

- Is not able to zip the ball to outside 20 yard or more unless he is running to that part of the field.  (stationary like a pocket passer should be able to)

- Is a running QB who will break down like all running QB's do.  

 

27 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

  Josh Allen, even in his first two years, had plays that made your jaw drop.  His issue wasn't his talent, it was his consistency.   

 

Some players, like Allen, demonstrate flash plays that let you see and you continue to go down the road with them further.  

1st Hurts- i'll add,

• Has trouble reading defenses
• he bails from clean pockets, does not go through his progressions well
• He is slow to make decisions and this causes his throws to be late, often causing the WR to have to slow down or stop the route, or worse come back to the ball.

2nd - when watching young Qb's early on in their careers you watch for things that display ability. Things like having the ability to make some NFL caliber throws. Being able to read defenses and make your progression reads. Some clearly show they have the talent, and as you correctly asserted here, just need to work on consistency and learning more of the PRO game.  And Allen, Herbert, Burrow and even Wentz in his 1st year displayed some of those traits which make you take notice.

And sorry- but Hurts has yet in his 2 Rookie seasons shown me any of that. If it weren't for his running ability he'd have been a complete disaster.  As it is, a good deal of his passing stats are from garbage time when the other teams shift into an umbrella coverage after they have a good lead. And also against really bad teams. 

 

20 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

I feel like the pro bowl is desperate for players

Brady actually retired. 

 

5 minutes ago, Thrive said:

Hurts’ explanation of his play is why I don’t even pretend to think I can analyze good QB play. On its surface, it looks like Hurts didn’t have the field of vision nor the pre snap reading ability to find an open player.

However, based on his explanation, he was coached to progress through his reads in a very particular way. Sure he could have scrapped that plan post-snap, but I understand why he wants to do this precisely as requested.
 

Is this indicative of all of his bad plays against the Bucs, for example, probably not. But it also shows that humility is necessary in having a decent discussion about what we saw in 2021.

Well said. 

10 minutes ago, Thrive said:

But it also shows that humility is necessary in having a decent discussion about what we saw in 2021.

Being humble and admitting  you suck does not mean you can do anything about it.

People keep talking about this work ethic and drive, unfortunately, that does not mean you can get better.  Nobody sucked with more heart and effort than Kurt Coleman.

28 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

Nice.  

What's the total amount of Eagles named now?  (Either as a starter or alternate)?

7 minutes ago, greend said:

I feel like the pro bowl is desperate for players

Wow. Pro-Bowl? Anyone with a body temperature over 90 and/or a heartbeat wanting to play- You’ve made the Pro Bowl.

 

scrap the damn game - nobody cares

27 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

I mean, I like Josh Sweat but he is NOT a Pro Bowl player my goodness.  

Also, PE.com stop trying so hard to be clever or hip with your tweets.  Don't Sweat the technique is just stupid.  

Might want to go this direction instead! 

 

6 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Brady actually retired. 

 

What a career.  I'm glad I was able to witness it from the beginning until now. 

8 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Yes. He’s the first QB to display humility in a press conference.   He’s the guy.  Good God man.  You look silly here.  

 

2 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Being humble and admitting  you suck does not mean you can do anything about it.

People keep talking about this work ethic and drive, unfortunately, that does not mean you can get better.  Nobody sucked with more heart and effort than Kurt Coleman.

You two are so quick to throw in a jab, you didn’t read what I said closely. Humility from us who don’t know exactly what these players are being asked to do. 

1 minute ago, Thrive said:

 

You two are so quick to throw in a jab, you didn’t read what I said closely. Humility from us who don’t know exactly what these players are being asked to do. 

Here's a thought....a good QB would recognize post snap that the coverage was busted, and find the wide open guy in the back of the endzone. 

I can forgive him missing that play, if it were the exception. Instead, it's the norm, he constantly missed wide open guys. 

34 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

I like sweat but that’s a significant drop off from nick bosa to sweat. Gonna hurt the nfc in the all important pro bowl game 

2 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Here's a thought....a good QB would recognize post snap that the coverage was busted, and find the wide open guy in the back of the endzone. 

I can forgive him missing that play, if it were the exception. Instead, it's the norm, he constantly missed wide open guys. 

Sure but you wouldn’t have forgiven for missing that play unless he provided that explanation. Again, is he missing wide open guys for those same reasons he described? That seems highly unlikely but, for us idiots wasting our time on a message board, we have absolutely no way of knowing precisely why he missed those plays.

That doesn’t mean we can’t speculate but we should at least be humble enough to call it just that.

17 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Josh Allen might have top 5 arm talent in nfl history. Not his overall ability, just his arm. if you believe hurts is a similar prospect in terms of arm talent to Josh Allen then you never watched him at Wyoming. And most people did not because they never played anybody except for like three games and he was awful in games so probably thought he was overrated. But if you watched him play against some of the teams in his conference you’d see his arm was absolutely ridiculous.

The two things that scared people with him coming out was with his accuracy. Would it get better in the NFL against better talent even if he was given better talent.  Second was would the jump from Wyoming to nfl be too much and he’d under perform like he did against better competition in college. His arm talent was never questioned

Yup I saw him a couple times in college, he played better as a Jr then a bunch of his weapons graduated left, drafted and stat wise record wise weren't as good but his arm talent coupled with his size and running ability at that size were obvious, biggest thing like you said was his accuracy and people obviously questioned his level of competition, I've never worried about level of competition if a guy can throw the rock I don't care if he plays at western butt tech st, if he has those natural skills the test can be taught or improved 

Josh Allen in college was oozing talent he just had to put it together and he has.

Hurts meanwhile in college it was obvious he didnt have a ton of arm talent and same has shown in the pros.

I think upcoming draft the guy to me that shows the most arm talent is Carson Strong, he has a lot of tools to work with.

 

2 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Stop focusing on 2022 so much.  

As for the final line... you get the better QB when the better QB is available to be gotten.  That doesn't happen all the time.  And it's a pipe dream to think that in the moment you think you are finally ready for the QB, that the one you covet will just happen to be available.   That's not how the NFL works.  

I have no interest in trading for any of these QBs, because I don't like to pay twice for the same asset.  If they were free agents, fine.  But having to trade for them AND pay them their bloated salaries is a death knell to really building the rest of the team.  Meanwhile, there is more risk involved in drafting a QB, but you have the luxury of the QB on a rookie deal, so you can afford to buy an extra player or three.   I don't know that Strong is the answer, but I know that Hurts isn't.

I am between AFan and you. I think the stats support that Hurts isn’t the worse QB in the league.  I think stats and eyes also prove he is challenged as a passer with the inability to see the field and abandonment of the pocket.  His slower trigger makes him misjudge some deep throws but not always.  I also hate that except deep, he doesn’t seem to be able to read inside. Can a one year starter be fixed?  Ask Daboll.  I have serious doubts but slamming the door may be premature. Some argue that one and a fourth seasons is enough to judge. In that quarter season, his best WR was Greg Ward.

So some posit using the much needed draft capital to trade for one of a couple of older QBs, which seems like a waste with this defense.  Some are deluded to over buying Pickett, Strong or Ridder.  None of whom seem to be potential franchise QBs.  I would rather use one pick on one of those than Wilson or Rodgers (both of whom get to choose where they end up.)  As to Watson, the price is too high and he also gets to choose where to go.  The best passer available as a free agent is Winston.   I could see that.

I understand what you say about availability but you can call the Rodgers, Wilson and Watson craving posters more deluded than AFan when it comes to availability.   But we have all seen teams reach for QBs in the draft that did not meet potential because the team was picking high for a reason, that the whole team was bad.  Well the Eagles aren’t great.  

Let’s talk offense.  It isn’t like the Eagles are a player away.  Yes, Stout is a great OL coach, but he needs clay.  Mailata has really impressed but at best, he is lower top third of LTs in the league at this point.  Lane Johnson is great, when healthy.  Brooks just retired and anyone that thinks Driscoll or Herbig are anything close to Brooks are blinding themselves. I like Seumalo better than most but a foot injury requiring surgery is a concern. If he recovers, great. If not, we have a hole that needs to be filled.  When Kelce retires, we have another hole that needs to be filled. Dickerson’s history of injury concerns.  Really good OL but gaps in the clay.

Goedert drops too many balls.  Cupboard may be bare behind him.  Smith is awesome at running routes but is a little light around the goal line.  JJAW is a bust.  Everything you and I pointed out about Reagor in the Justin Jefferson debate has proven true.  Takes plays off if the ball isn’t coming to him.  Lazy in route discipline.  Attention drops.  Doesn’t play at his speed all the time.  Ward is a good teammate and back up slot but lacks the speed his size requires.  Watkins took a step forward but is a work in progress.  Gainwell and Scott are good in rotation but Sanders is here for a year and Howard is a UFA.  Both have injury issues.  The O isn’t a QB away, but it is in better shape than the D.

DL is Sweat. Cox and Hargrave have one year basically on their contracts.  Neither held up.  Jackson? Marlin T.?  Yes, really need some fresh blood there.  Anything to be optimistic about at LB?  Slay, the only returning vet in the secondary unless you count nickel CB Maddox or nickel S Epps.  Real holes. 

So, this is where I actually think you and AFan agree.  Grab a franchise QB when you can.  Now I agree, it takes a willing trade partner if selecting in the draft.  I actually think AFan would agree too.

If the Eagles brain trust decide a bridge is needed and it can’t be Hurts, expect Winston.  
BTW, all those holes?  Fix it by firing Howie.  I am tired of his playing the flex tape guy instead of a builder.  

51 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

To an extent, yes.  There's also cases like Josh Allen, who many wrote off early on but was able to make adjustments/develop into a star. 

I'm not sure what the exact success rate of 1st round pick QB's is but it's likely similar to other positions (or worse)...meaning that even 1st round pick QB's only have around a 50%-60% success rate,  (Meaning starting or playing a significant amount of snaps after 5 years).  

 

And for what it's worth, this is the reason that I'm not against them drafting QB's "to develop".  Say you have a 60% success rate (at best)...that means you could always have at least 2 (1st or 2nd round pick) QB's on your roster.   I think there's a ton of "logic" behind this type of strategy.  

I posted awhile ago that there were 30 QBs drafted in the 1st round over a 10-year period (2010-2019 or something like that).  Out of those 30 QBs drafted, 8 of them developed into the QB the teams had hoped for.  The success rate is not high.  Doesn't mean you don't or can't do it, but the odds are against it working out in the long term.

Brady finally calls it a career , good for him 

53 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Listening to the ITB podcast, Spielman said if Jefferson was gone the Vikings would have taken Reagor or Aiyuk. 

So much for the "laughing at the Eagles" narrative.

4 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

I posted awhile ago that there were 30 QBs drafted in the 1st round over a 10-year period (2010-2019 or something like that).  Out of those 30 QBs drafted, 8 of them developed into the QB the teams had hoped for.  The success rate is not high.  Doesn't mean you don't or can't do it, but the odds are against it working out in the long term.

And you have to continue to take chances in finding that guy.  I mean, read Jeff Lurie's quote in my signature.