June 28, 20232 yr 51 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/07/1960-electoral-college-certificates-false-trump-electors-00006186 Literally straight from your own article In that case, Judge Ronald Jamieson agreed that the certified Kennedy electors were legitimate. But, more significantly, Jamieson said it was important that those electors met and gathered on Dec. 19, 1960, as prescribed by the Electoral Count Act. Rather than suggest the Democratic electors committed fraud, the judge pointed to their meeting as a key step that preserved their ability to be counted after the recount showed Kennedy had actually won the state. Jamieson also reportedly threw out an effort by the GOP electors to scrap the entire election because of fraud allegations.
June 28, 20232 yr 47 minutes ago, Mike31mt said: You guys are in such a hurry to show your arses on here. Im only responding to like 8 of you at once, jesus.... "Everybody is crazy except for me! I'm the only one who knows the truth!. You all have TDS and I am very normal."
June 28, 20232 yr jesus is WV Mike still trying to speak into existence moral equivalence between Trump and Biden's actions? "I'm not a Trumplican but..." 🤣
June 28, 20232 yr Trump's actions: knowingly took classified documents. bragged about having them on tape. refused to return them when asked by NARA for months. eventually returned some of the documents. NARA continued to request documents through lawyers. lawyers signed off that all documents were returned; they weren't (apparently in this instance Trump lied to his lawyers). eventually the gov't needs to raid his resort to get the documents back. Biden's actions: had a small number of classified documents mixed in with personal documents. when some were discovered in one office, NARA was contacted and documents were securely returned. voluntarily allowed his home to be searched, cooperating fully with NARA and gov't agents. all documents found were returned. "bIdEn DiD iT ToO!!"
June 28, 20232 yr 3 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: Trump's actions: knowingly took classified documents. bragged about having them on tape. refused to return them when asked by NARA for months. eventually returned some of the documents. NARA continued to request documents through lawyers. lawyers signed off that all documents were returned; they weren't (apparently in this instance Trump lied to his lawyers). eventually the gov't needs to raid his resort to get the documents back. Biden's actions: had a small number of classified documents mixed in with personal documents. when some were discovered in one office, NARA was contacted and documents were securely returned. voluntarily allowed his home to be searched, cooperating fully with NARA and gov't agents. all documents found were returned. "bIdEn DiD iT ToO!!" its a mirror image you partisan hack !!!!!!!
June 28, 20232 yr Isn't the issue supposed to be that both of those dipshits took classified documents into their personal possession to begin with?
June 28, 20232 yr 2 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: Isn't the issue supposed to be that both of those dipshits took classified documents into their personal possession to begin with? Personal possession only matters because there was intent to obstruct it's return. Trump had the intent to obstruct, Biden didn't. That's difference. Same for Pence.
June 28, 20232 yr 11 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: Isn't the issue supposed to be that both of those dipshits took classified documents into their personal possession to begin with? No, this is not the issue at all.
June 28, 20232 yr 18 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: Isn't the issue supposed to be that both of those dipshits took classified documents into their personal possession to begin with? Yes, that's not a good look just as it wasn't with Pence and others, but as always, "the cover-up is worse than the crime." Why? Because it shows intent, and intent matters, especially when one of the people in question is stupid enough to literally be caught on tape confessing to said intent. Unless evidence comes to light where Biden is found to have been intentionally withholding the docs or showing these them to others like Trump was then the severity of the crimes are not in any way comparable.
June 28, 20232 yr 9 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said: Personal possession only matters because there was intent to obstruct it's return. Trump had the intent to obstruct, Biden didn't. That's difference. Same for Pence. Even though no one would have to talk about anyone's "intent to obstruct return of classified documents", if no one took them in the first place. 1 minute ago, Tnt4philly said: No, this is not the issue at all. Of course it's not. Silly me. Let's just do an end-around around the fact that nobody, Biden or Trump or anyone else, should have classified information in their personal possession. Whether it's in a garage in Delaware or a safe in some backroom in Mar-a-lago. But one guy reallllly, reallllly wanted to give them back once he got caught with them, so.
June 28, 20232 yr 3 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: But one guy reallllly, reallllly wanted to give them back once he got caught with them, so. Biden did gave them back and Trump didn't. And he didn't "get caught", he found them of his own volition and voluntarily contacted NARA and the DOJ. I know you want this to not be the case but it is. Your boy got caught on tape admitting to it. It's over, he's done, dude. Let it go.
June 28, 20232 yr 15 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Yes, that's not a good look just as it wasn't with Pence and others, but as always, "the cover-up is worse than the crime." Why? Because it shows intent, and Intent matters, especially when one of the people in question is stupid enough to literally be caught on tape confessing to said intent. Unless evidence comes to light where Biden is found to have been intentionally withholding the docs or showing these them to others like Trump was then the severity of the crimes are not in any way comparable. The crime is that they took them, not that one cooperated more than the other when they got caught. The fact that that's the conversation to begin with, not *why* we have to have this conversation in the first place, is the problem. Who gives a F how sorry they are after the fact? It's possession of classified information, not something minor like jaywalking or driving with a tail light out.
June 28, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said: Biden did gave them back and Trump didn't. I know you want this to not be the case but it is. Your boy got caught on tape admitting to it. It's over, he's done, dude. Let it go. Who's my boy now? You're so close to saying it
June 28, 20232 yr 8 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: Isn't the issue supposed to be that both of those dipshits took classified documents into their personal possession to begin with? Intent matters. The way the law is written, "knowingly" removing documents is part of the deal. If you find you inadvertently took classified documents, and then fail to report it, that also is a crime. If you find you accidentally took documents, contact the appropriate agencies, and work with govt agents to return the documents, you're generally clean as far as the statutes Trump is being indicted for. I am being careful with my wording there because IANAL, but that's how it reads. In all cases where someone was indicted and convicted of unlawful retention of classified material, the defendant has knowingly removed them and retained them. Had Trump behaved as Biden did, merely cooperate with NARA and act in good faith in returning documents (which includes things line allowing searching of one's homes and offices for example), this never would have become a legal problem for him. Where he ventured into a space where the DoJ really needs to indict is in resisting the return, knowing retention of documents, hiding documents, moving them around, etc. Biden did none of that.
June 28, 20232 yr 2 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: Even though no one would have to talk about anyone's "intent to obstruct return of classified documents", if no one took them in the first place. Of course it's not. Silly me. Let's just do an end-around around the fact that nobody, Biden or Trump or anyone else, should have classified information in their personal possession. Whether it's in a garage in Delaware or a safe in some backroom in Mar-a-lago. But one guy reallllly, reallllly wanted to give them back once he got caught with them, so. Not just one guy really really wanted to give them back, all of them did except for one.
June 28, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, hukdonfoniks said: The crime is that they took them, not that one cooperated more than the other when they got caught.
June 28, 20232 yr 7 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: The crime is that they took them, If Biden is investigated and found guilty of wrong doing then he deserves punishment commensurate with the severity of the crime. But as I explained, intent matters when assessing criminal behavior. Quote not that one cooperated more than the other when they got caught. Obstruction of justice is indeed a crime, inconvenient as it might be for the guy you voted for. Quote The fact that that's the conversation to begin with, not *why* we have to have this conversation in the first place, is the problem. Who gives a F how sorry they are after the fact? It's possession of classified information, not something minor like jaywalking or driving with a tail light out. A court of law does, just as it always has. How are you not grasping this?
June 28, 20232 yr 2 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: The crime is that they took them…….. No, that is not the crime here.
June 28, 20232 yr 5 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: Who's my boy now? You're so close to saying it Oh right, "Non-trump-supporters" always come running to CVON to draw false equivalences to deflect from Trump's crimes. Good call.
June 28, 20232 yr Just now, we_gotta_believe said: Oh right, "Non-trump-supporters" always come running to CVON and draw to draw false equivalences to deflect from Trump's crimes. Good call. C'mon, just a little bit further. Just say it one time and I'll never ask you again. Who's my boy now?
June 28, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, hukdonfoniks said: C'mon, just a little bit further. Just say it one time and I'll never ask you again. Who's my boy now?
June 28, 20232 yr Here is a summary of the counts, which are listed starting on page 28 of the document embedded below: Willful retention of national defense information: This charge, covering counts 1-31, only applies to Trump and is for allegedly storing 31 such documents at Mar-a-Lago. Conspiracy to obstruct justice: Trump and Nauta, along with others, are charged with conspiring to keep those documents from the grand jury. Withholding a document or a record: Trump and Nauta are accused of misleading one of their attorneys by moving boxes of classified documents so the attorney could not find or introduce them to the grand jury. Corruptly concealing a document or record: This pertains to the Trump and Nauta's alleged attempts to hide the boxes of classified documents from the attorney. Concealing a document in a federal investigation: They are accused of hiding Trump's continued possession of those documents at Mar-a-Lago from the FBI and causing a false certificate to be submitted to the FBI. Scheme to conceal: This is for the allegation that Trump and Nauta hid Trump's continued possession of those materials from the FBI and the grand jury. False statements and representations: This count concerns statements that Trump allegedly caused another one of his attorneys to make to the FBI and grand jury in early June regarding the results of the search at Mar-a-Lago. False statements and representations: This final count accuses Nauta of giving false answers during a voluntary interview with the FBI in late May. but biden!
June 28, 20232 yr 2 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said: The crime is that they took them, not that one cooperated more than the other when they got caught. The fact that that's the conversation to begin with, not *why* we have to have this conversation in the first place, is the problem. Who gives a F how sorry they are after the fact? It's possession of classified information, not something minor like jaywalking or driving with a tail light out. I do not believe it's criminal to accidentally take classified documents provided that 1. You legally had the right to possess them and 2. Did not show a pattern of careless behavior in handling documents. At least it's not under the espionage act statutes. I have found no cases where someone accidentally removed classified documents and were prosecuted for it. The way the statute is written requires knowingly removing documents. If you find them later and fail to return, that's a separate crime (and the specific one Trump was indicted for in Florida). There's no evidence or reason to believe that Biden or Pence knowingly took these documents. If any is uncovered then yeah it would be more comparable. Trump took them knowing they were classified, and knowing he had no right to keep them. Neither Biden nor Pence did. Even if it's illegal for one to accidentally possess classified documents under other statutes, the difference between what Trump did and what Biden/Pence did is the difference between someone driving 100mph the wrong way on 95 after getting flagged at the bar ending in a fatal accident, and someone doing 10 over the speed limit hitting a parked car.
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