2 hours ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

If that threshold can't be met for a proposed amendment, then it doesn't have a majority of support and shouldn't be ratified. I know that TV news and Social Media can make things look like the vast majority of the population wants something, but the news and social media can be manipulated to make it look that way... whichever side you're on. 

So, what if, the actual majority of the population does not support something (whatever the proposal is)? The media (TV and social) makes you think it's supported, but just what if you're being manipulated into a position that only a minority of the population supports? You have no real way to easily know that, one way or the other. 

So, we have the amendment process (both methods). If the majority of support for an issue is there, then it's there. If it's not there, it's not. 

That's not really true though. First of all we have plenty of data beyond just social media that shows approval/disapproval rates from many different sources.

Second of all we live on a representative democracy. Legislators are elected by the majority but are  are by no means obligated to represent their state's majority opinion on all issues. Given most politician's refusal to cross party lines on much of anything nowadays (and expect to keep their party's endorsement at least) it means we've basically had to bundle votes on taxes, abortion, foreign policy, renewable energy etc all together. Plenty of scenarios where a legislator could vote no on an issue that the majority of their constituents are for. 

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

The problem with a 15 week limit is that often the first ultrasound is around week 20, and there can be problems with the pregnancy revealed after that. Most of the abortions that take place after 15 weeks - which is only 5% of abortions - are the ones that are performed because of a problem with the fetus or a threat to the mother's life. 

I wouldn't necessarily have a major issue with elective abortions limited to the first 15 weeks, but there has to be an allowance where if a doctor determines significant issues with the fetus or the mother's life is in danger an abortion can be performed. 

First ultrasound is sooner than that. Its done to confirm the pregnancy and look for ectopics

1 hour ago, DEagle7 said:

That's not really true though. First of all we have plenty of data beyond just social media that shows approval/disapproval rates from many different sources.

Second of all we live on a representative democracy. Legislators are elected by the majority but are  are by no means obligated to represent their state's majority opinion on all issues. Given most politician's refusal to cross party lines on much of anything nowadays (and expect to keep their party's endorsement at least) it means we've basically had to bundle votes on taxes, abortion, foreign policy, renewable energy etc all together. Plenty of scenarios where a legislator could vote no on an issue that the majority of their constituents are for. 

Then they should vote them out

Just now, ToastJenkins said:

First ultrasound is sooner than that. Its done to confirm the pregnancy and look for ectopics

Yes but the anatomy scan isn't until 20 weeks. Lots of really devastating things aren't found until then unfortunately. 

1 minute ago, ToastJenkins said:

Then they should vote them out

I don't disagree. Just pointing out the flaw in the logic of "if 3/4 of state legislatures or congressmen won't vote for an amendment it means it's not an opinion most citizens hold". It's just not true. 

1 minute ago, DEagle7 said:

Yes but the anatomy scan isn't until 20 weeks. Lots of really devastating things aren't found until then unfortunately. 

Well yeah the anatomy doesnt really exist before that so…

i have no issue with the patient and doctor making those calls for legit reasons. But again these are the vast minority of cases

3 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

I don't disagree. Just pointing out the flaw in the logic of "if 3/4 of state legislatures or congressmen won't vote for an amendment it means it's not an opinion most citizens hold". It's just not true. 

Kind of a strawman especially given the nature of polling "data”

vote. Thats the mechanism

13 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Kind of a strawman especially given the nature of polling "data”

vote. Thats the mechanism

It's not a strawman. It's the argument VA was making. My comment was a direct response to him making that exact argument.

16 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Well yeah the anatomy doesnt really exist before that so…

i have no issue with the patient and doctor making those calls for legit reasons. But again these are the vast minority of cases

Of 20+ week abortions that's a significant portion of them, not a "vast minority". And no one other than the doctor and mother should have any say in what constitutes a "legit" reason in those cases. Allowing the legitimacy of that decision to be judged by an outsider is silly. 

2 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

The Western Euro models all work off of the max # of weeks principle plus special situations thereafter. That setup seems to work well enough for the vast majority of people. Poland is an exception. 

They haven’t been infected with the GLOBOHOMO virus yet.

5 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

It's not a strawman. It's the argument VA was making. My comment was a direct response to him making that exact argument.

Of 20+ week abortions that's a significant portion of them, not a "vast minority". And no one other than the doctor and mother should have any say in what constitutes a "legit" reason in those cases. Allowing the legitimacy of that decision to be judged by an outsider is silly. 

That’s absurd. Of course people can judge the legitimacy of one’s actions. That’s the entire point of a society, a nation, and a legal system.

9 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

It's not a strawman. It's the argument VA was making. My comment was a direct response to him making that exact argument.

Of 20+ week abortions that's a significant portion of them, not a "vast minority". And no one other than the doctor and mother should have any say in what constitutes a "legit" reason in those cases. Allowing the legitimacy of that decision to be judged by an outsider is silly. 

Of overall abortions its a vast minority

and there will be docs willing to lie so there can be some level of oversight on ethics. But thats why you take away the govt funding. Profit motive

16 minutes ago, TEW said:

That’s absurd. Of course people can judge the legitimacy of one’s actions. That’s the entire point of a society, a nation, and a legal system.

When it's a decision that personal, and approved by the supervising medical community then no, random laymen should not have a say in the legitimacy. 

13 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Of overall abortions its a vast minority

and there will be docs willing to lie so there can be some level of oversight on ethics. But thats why you take away the govt funding. Profit motive

And the supervision of those ethics should be through the governing medical body. 

Well yeah the mechanism exists via irb and ethics cmte already thats what i meant

22 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Well yeah the mechanism exists via irb and ethics cmte already thats what i meant

Sure, but review/ethics committees are comprised of relevant professionals a portion of which have medical background, not a buncha elected layman.  

8 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

Sure, but review/ethics committees are comprised of relevant professionals a portion of which have medical background, not a buncha elected layman.  

I am agreeing with you. Let the experts handle oversight

 

 

4 hours ago, DEagle7 said:

When it's a decision that personal, and approved by the supervising medical community then no, random laymen should not have a say in the legitimacy. 

No, the question of murder will always and should always attract public opinion. Being a mother or doctor does not absolve you of that scrutiny.

6 hours ago, DEagle7 said:

When it's a decision that personal, and approved by the supervising medical community then no, random laymen should not have a say in the legitimacy.

 

 

 

The US was an outlier among western countries with regards to abortion rights prior to the SCOTUS ruling AND remains an outlier afterward.

What Dr. Philly thinks I look like:

 

What I actually look like:

Nice pic! Now you’ve ruined everything 

Dang, Moss is kind of a DILF.  Like a commie Christopher Meloni.

I know everyone is looking at this at a national level but state level politics in swing states like PA are about to get even uglier than they already are. 

@Dave Moss So how many pregnant dudes were there?