Just now, mattwill said:

They do a dozen different things.  You need to come out from behind the pillar that is preventing you from enjoying the WHOLE game.

I enjoy the game, but we are talking about the QB and what makes him average at best.

Please provide me something with factual data that makes him above average.

23 minutes ago, austinfan said:

The RPO is a one read/run decision, because the OL are run blocking and will be upfield if you try to find a second read.

And Hurts proved to be very slow with that decision making process last season, which is why the team had so many ineligible men downfield flags early on last season, and why the team went away from RPOs to straight ROs as the year wore on.  

1 minute ago, wussbasket said:

If by more effective QB you mean better at handing the ball off and significantly reducing his passing attempts, then sure. 

No, effective in executing all the aspects of being the QB of his team.

5 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I understand and respect that perspective of yours.  It just isn't a perspective that I share.  Let's see how 2022 plays out.  I realize that there is a real possibility that I may join you in your perspective by the end of the season.

You want your starting QB to take lots of shots and be forced out of games?

2 minutes ago, mattwill said:

No, effective in executing all the aspects of being the QB of his team.

And we saw his effectiveness all come together in the Playoffs.

5 minutes ago, mattwill said:

No, effective in executing all the aspects of being the QB of his team.

7 minutes ago, mattwill said:

No, effective in executing all the aspects of being the QB of his team.

And which aspects was he above average ??

24 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Actually it was, Kotite had his flaws, but he was a good OC, and away from Ryan they were starting to turn Cunningham into a real QB before he got injured.

Same way you wonder what Reid could have done with Vick if he had him at 25.

Kotite was not a good OC. There is no evidence saying he was besides Randall making plays by himself. Was he good because O'Brien had a good 1985? How about his bad 1986-1989? Kotite was only the Eagles OC in 1990.  Ted Plumb had them 5 and 10 in 1988 so they were already really good (heavily leaning on Cunningham) He was 2nd in MVP voting both years.

Greg Roman is an example of a good OC who fits his offense to his unique QBs. Kotite went to war with Randall and started the Bubster during his 4-35 finish.

4 wins 35 losses in his last 39 games as a coach

Kyle Brady reached out to Penn State to get some actual coaching while he was on the Jets because the Kotite staff was too incompetent.

 

Kotite might be top 10 on the most incompetent people ever associated with the NFL. Giving him credit for 1990 is hilarious.

16 minutes ago, downundermike said:

I enjoy the game, but we are talking about the QB and what makes him average at best.

Please provide me something with factual data that makes him above average.

You like to wield that word "fact" like a weapon, but I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word. 

I will provide you with that factual data after you provide me with a response to my two prior requests for factual data from you. To help you along I've coppied and pasted those requests below. 

On 8/23/2022 at 8:49 PM, mattwill said:

mike, help me along.  I have observed most of the posts in here for quite a while.  Give me an example of a conflicting viewpoint backed up by data that you feel that justrelax has ignored. 

There has been no shortage of conflicting viewpoints over the past 12 months.  That part of your statement I can agree with 100%.  The part I am at sea with is the "backed up by data" part.  So, please help me along.

mike, the facts request is/was in the post above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On 8/25/2022 at 9:04 AM, downundermike said:

Refresh my memory, facts about what ??

 

87.1 rating first 8 games ( would rank 22nd overall)

84.0 rating last 8 games ( would rank 27th overall)

 

These are facts. Where was the improvement as the season went on?

3 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You like to wield that word "fact" like a weapon, but I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word. 

I will provide you with that factual data after you provide me with a response to my two prior requests for factual data from you. To help you along I've coppied and pasted those requests below. 

mike, the facts request is/was in the post above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

See my post above where I provided the facts that Jalen Hurts is  average Based on him ranking 16th or lower in most quarterback statistical passing categories

21 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

Hurts’s season passer rating was 87.2, which ranks him 22nd overall. He had a completion percentage of 59% against the giants the 2nd time, that’s not really something I would attribute to "getting better”. Over his last 11 regular season games , he threw for more than 200 yards only 3 times.

It’s safe to say he was a less effective passer as the season went on.

The argument is - the NFL has Hurts figured out based on the playoff game and the last five games of the season.

My counter is that, if this was true, his best three-game stretch in terms of passer rating wouldn't have been in the last three games of the season.

That's the argument. If you want to look at only completion percentage as a measure of qb play, that's fine. But you are being misleading because that's not the best measure of qb play. Passer rating is much better, a stat you yourself quoted. And if his season rating was 87, and his last three games were well above 87, the idea that the league figured him out seems foolish based on evidence.

1 hour ago, schuy7 said:

That strong arm you're talking about is skill. 

 

A skill is something that is crafted.  One with an elite natural raw ability can be crafted into a very skillful player.  Even those without elite natural raw ability can be crafted into very skillful players, they just wouldn't have that added natural ability to make those skills more impactful.  Plenty of big physically gifted QBs never became anything in the NFL.  Josh Allen came into the NFL far from a finished product.  He was born with his elite natural ability but Allen and the Bills crafted him into a highly skilled QB whose developed skillset is enhanced even further by his elite natural ability.

A skillful carpenter wasn't born a skillful carpenter, they developed that skill over a lifetime.  

37 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Also safe to say he was a more effective quarterback as the season went on.

Disagree

the qbs primary job is to pass the ball

40 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I could be wrong, but I think of strong arm as talent.  For me, accurate arm is skill.

I would agree with that.

2 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Disagree

the qbs primary job is to pass the ball

The QBs primary job is to lead the offense.

Passing is a means to an end, not the end.

7 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

A skill is something that is crafted.  One with an elite natural raw ability can be crafted into a very skillful player.  Even those without elite natural raw ability can be crafted into very skillful players, they just wouldn't have that added natural ability to make those skills more impactful.  Plenty of big physically gifted QBs never became anything in the NFL.  Josh Allen came into the NFL far from a finished product.  He was born with his elite natural ability but Allen and the Bills crafted him into a highly skilled QB whose developed skillset is enhanced even further by his elite natural ability.

A skillful carpenter wasn't born a skillful carpenter, they developed that skill over a lifetime.  

Hey good speech Abe Lincoln 

46 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I could be wrong, but I think of strong arm as talent.  For me, accurate arm is skill.

That's the funny perception about throwing a ball. Strong arms are just talent. Accuracy is skill. It's a bit of a funny perception to me because the most accurate passers ~usually~ have strong arms. I'm talking about real accuracy. Not QBs who check it down and have a high completion percentage. I'm talking QBs who can throw 25 yards with zip and accuracy. Those are the most skilled passers. They have the most refined, effortless throwing motion. They have talent and they have developed the skill.

18 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

The argument is - the NFL has Hurts figured out based on the playoff game and the last five games of the season.

My counter is that, if this was true, his best three-game stretch in terms of passer rating wouldn't have been in the last three games of the season.

Problem for your argument, if you take the stats from that 3 game stretch, vs the DET, LAC and Den 3 game stretch, you are wrong.

Here are those numbers

 

And here is the NFL passer rating calculator

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/qb-rating.htm

 

Edited - it gets even worse for you @jsb235, the first 3 games of the season, his passer rating was higher than the last 3

 

 

52 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Also safe to say he was a more effective quarterback as the season went on.

I think that was the result of the level of opponent instead of player effectiveness.  Once the caliber of opponent spiked back up, the QB became ineffective again.

11 minutes ago, schuy7 said:

That's the funny perception about throwing a ball. Strong arms are just talent. Accuracy is skill. It's a bit of a funny perception to me because the most accurate passers ~usually~ have strong arms. I'm talking about real accuracy. Not QBs who check it down and have a high completion percentage. I'm talking QBs who can throw 25 yards with zip and accuracy. Those are the most skilled passers. They have the most refined, effortless throwing motion. They have talent and they have developed the skill.

 

Chad Pennington was an extremely accurate QB and he had an infamously weak arm.  Kurt Warner was a surgeon with is accuracy but while he by no means had a weak arm he also didn't have an elite level of arm strength either.  Drew Brees as well, especially late career.  

 

Also for Hurts, that 25 yards with zip and accuracy.  I remember the Hurts to Goedert TD in W1 last year (video below).  He threw that at around the 16 yard line and Goedert catches it 5 yards deep into the endzone.  Not 25 yards but that was a 21 yard pass with zip and accuracy in a very tight window.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Problem for your argument, if you take the stats from that 3 game stretch, vs the DET, LAC and Den 3 game stretch, you are wrong.

Here are those numbers

 

And here is the NFL passer rating calculator

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/about/qb-rating.htm

 

Why not just use the pfr ratings? 115, 103 and 86 versus 110, 103 and 91, which means they are nearly the same. 

Here is the link, you can do the math yourself. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HurtJa00.htm

And if the league figured him out, why is the second set not lower? 

2 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

Why not just use the pfr ratings? 115, 103 and 86 versus 110, 103 and 91, which means they are nearly the same. 

Here is the link, you can do the math yourself. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HurtJa00.htm

And if the league figured him out, why is the second set not lower? 

I plugged in the numbers, that I got from PFR, and got the exact rating for each 3 game stretch, using the calculator provided by PFR, you are more than welcome to do the same if you like.

FACT - the last 3 games was his 3rd best stretch of games in regards to QB rating.

Best stretch, Det, LAC, Den - 102.62

2nd best stretch, 1st 3 weeks - 99.16

3rd best stretch ( the one that you said was the best ), last 3 weeks - 97.77

How does it feel to be wrong.

Just now, downundermike said:

I plugged in the numbers, that I got from PFR, and got the exact rating for each 3 game stretch, using the calculator provided by PFR, you are more than welcome to do the same if you like.

FACT - the last 3 games was his 3rd best stretch of games in regards to QB rating.

Best stretch, Det, LAC, Den - 102.62

2nd best stretch, 1st 3 weeks - 99.16

3rd best stretch ( the one that you said was the best ), last 3 weeks - 97.77

How does it feel to be wrong.

Pfr disagrees with your math. Don't know what to tell you. Maybe contact a lawyer? 

16 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

I think that was the result of the level of opponent instead of player effectiveness.  Once the caliber of opponent spiked back up, the QB became ineffective again.

 

The whole team became ineffective that game.  There were only two players that could say actually played well and that was DeVonta Smith (who should have been made a focus from the start of that game instead of at the end of it) and Ryan Kerrigan from out of nowhere.  Everyone else was bad.  Kelce had one of his worst games in many years, and I think that's a big reason why he came back because he didn't want to end his career with the way he played that game.  Goedert had a huge drop that was right in his hands and he would still be running today if he caught that.  Hurts was bad.  Defense was pathetic outside of Kerrigan.  And the coaching was really bad that game. 

It was bad all around.  They went against the defending champions and the greatest player in the history of the league that wasn't going to have losing to a 7th seed team at home be the potential last game of his career.  They weren't ready for the moment but hopefully they used that as a learning experience for going forward and the level they will need to play at against great teams like that if they want to compete in the postseason.