3 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

@paco 

 

Need more proof that socialism sucks? 

College Educated should be in quotes

2 minutes ago, paco said:

College Educated should be in quotes

 

Explain.

2 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

 

Explain.

Either they spend a portion of time at community college or go to a school like Kutztown that is known for teaching and not much else.  I wouldn't put that on the same level of education as a proper university.

 

Please note I'm talking about teachers (12th and under) at public schools and not professors at a college 

Just now, paco said:

Either they spend a portion of time at community college or go to a school like Kutztown that is known for teaching and not much else.  I wouldn't put that on the same level of education as a proper university.

Some do. But Kutztown is still an accredited university, and if you're going to pay teachers crap wages you're not getting even mid-level college graduates at scale.

When you have cut-rate wages, you get cut-rate employees. 

I still can't believe this dude I went to high school with, and trust me he was a real window licker, gets paid 60 grand to fingerpaint with kindergarteners part time and only for 3/4 of the year.

 

And the best part is, he gets TERRIBLE reviews from the school principal.  But it doesn't mean squat because he's going to get his merit based raise anyway, so he doesn't give two s***'s

6 minutes ago, paco said:

Either they spend a portion of time at community college or go to a school like Kutztown that is known for teaching and not much else.  I wouldn't put that on the same level of education as a proper university.

 

It's not a totally unmerited point, although a lot of people spend a couple of years at CC before attending a university. Nothing wrong with that.

Why would a supposed "teaching" school, though, like Kutztown or Millersville make a teacher's preparation less legitimate? I'm not sure I get that. I do think you're going to get the more "well-rounded" types from a true university, though.

But you are playing to my loyalties a bit here. I spent four years at a private university, and I definitely feel way more qualified and better trained than a lot of your run-of-the-mill types coming with the flood of degrees from the same 5 state schools. At least, that's what I tell myself to feel like a big man

 

2 minutes ago, paco said:

gets paid 60 grand to fingerpaint with kindergarteners part time and only for 3/4 of the year.

 

Certainly not the norm. Lots of teachers are making 35k or less.

3 minutes ago, paco said:

I still can't believe this dude I went to high school with, and trust me he was a real window licker, gets paid 60 grand to fingerpaint with kindergarteners part time and only for 3/4 of the year.

 

And the best part is, he gets TERRIBLE reviews from the school principal.  But it doesn't mean squat because he's going to get his merit based raise anyway, so he doesn't give two s***'s

Just looked it up.  

Studied Art education at Kutztown University of Pennsylvania

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Some do. But Kutztown is still an accredited university, and if you're going to pay teachers crap wages you're not getting even mid-level college graduates at scale.

When you have cut-rate wages, you get cut-rate employees. 

I think it was in DC where they were going to pay teachers a lot more money, but the union would have to go away.  They voted to make less money and keep the union.  It seems like the benefits of the union is what teachers want instead of more pay.  I do know plenty of teachers who make a good salary and aren’t part of a union.  Sounds like there’s a trade off that many aren’t willing to give up.

Average teacher salary, nationally is around $51k. 

Average starting salary for college graduates in 2019 at least was $53k. 

This means the average teacher, who has at least some experience (say 8 years), is making less than college graduates walking out of graduation and into a job. 

I'm not begrudging the college grads, but nobody is getting rich teaching. Many also work over the summer, either teaching summer school, tutoring, or doing odd-jobs (my pool guy is actually a teacher during the year). Many also have to earn continuing education/licensing credits, or are earning higher degrees (my oldest's teacher did this last year). 

 

edit: clarified that $51k is the average teacher salary

10 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

 

It's not a totally unmerited point, although a lot of people spend a couple of years at CC before attending a university. Nothing wrong with that.

Why would a supposed "teaching" school, though, like Kutztown or Millersville make a teacher's preparation less legitimate? I'm not sure I get that. I do think you're going to get the more "well-rounded" types from a true university, though.

But you are playing to my loyalties a bit here. I spent four years at a private university, and I definitely feel way more qualified and better trained than a lot of your run-of-the-mill types coming with the flood of degrees from the same 5 state schools. At least, that's what I tell myself to feel like a big man

 

 

Certainly not the norm. Lots of teachers are making 35k or less.

Paco hates teachers and places very little value on them.

Just now, RPeeteRules said:

I think it was in DC where they were going to pay teachers a lot more money, but the union would have to go away.  They voted to make less money and keep the union.  It seems like the benefits of the union is what teachers want instead of more pay.  I do know plenty of teachers who make a good salary and aren’t part of a union.  Sounds like there’s a trade off that many aren’t willing to give up.

Some of the teachers I know also hate the union. But yeah, the union has a lot of power. Too much, in many cases. 

There is an argument to be made for total compensation. Most teacher's trade a bit of salary for good benefits. 

Averages can also be misleading. Districts in wealthier areas have much higher average salaries, usually coupled with more dedicated students with support systems that help with education. Districts in poorer areas have low salaries, poor support from the administration, and a more challenging student body when it comes to educating.

My district is fine. The answer to the problems the Philadelphia school district has? Man, I don't know. Better salaries might help some, but it's a hard sell to get someone "good" to teach a bunch of kids who don't care to be taught.

1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Some of the teachers I know also hate the union. But yeah, the union has a lot of power. Too much, in many cases. 

There is an argument to be made for total compensation. Most teacher's trade a bit of salary for good benefits. 

Averages can also be misleading. Districts in wealthier areas have much higher average salaries, usually coupled with more dedicated students with support systems that help with education. Districts in poorer areas have low salaries, poor support from the administration, and a more challenging student body when it comes to educating.

My district is fine. The answer to the problems the Philadelphia school district has? Man, I don't know. Better salaries might help some, but it's a hard sell to get someone "good" to teach a bunch of kids who don't care to be taught.

This is true.  Even the schools that pay teachers more probably are looking for good standardized test scores from their students, which makes the school look good, but may not actually be helping the kids as they’re teaching to the tests instead of teaching the information.

I think the biggest thing that teachers' unions do for the teachers is put limitations on what the district can require of the teachers without paying them extra. If it weren't for the unions districts would require scheduled work and meetings outside of the work day for teachers and/or wouldn't give them planning time throughout the day. And teachers already work much longer hours than they're contracted for. 

Just now, RPeeteRules said:

This is true.  Even the schools that pay teachers more probably are looking for good standardized test scores from their students, which makes the school look good, but may not actually be helping the kids as they’re teaching to the tests instead of teaching the information.

City schools are often failing the students and community, and covering it up along the way.

That recent video of the mom from Baltimore was insane. In the more "worldly" context of those of us who have not lived all our lives in a depressed area of the city, she looks like a terrible parent. But in the vacuum of their community, she saw good marks from school for him and believed things were going well all while working to keep the lights on. People in these situations don't deserver our derision, nor do they necessarily deserve our empathy, but we SHOULD seek to try and better understand how these situations are happening. 

Walk a mile in their shoes goes both ways.

This is one of the reason success stories from these communities are so important. You need not only to see people from the neighborhood succeeding, but you need to witness HOW they succeed. Right now the models are those who punch their lottery ticket through athletics. When the district is putting kids academically behind their suburban peers by 2nd grade, and the economy is increasingly one where knowledge workers are grabbing the majority of GDP growth, things are just going to get worse. 

17 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Average teacher salary, nationally is around $51k. 

Average starting salary for college graduates in 2019 at least was $53k. 

This means the average teacher, who has at least some experience (say 8 years), is making less than college graduates walking out of graduation and into a job. 

I'm not begrudging the college grads, but nobody is getting rich teaching. Many also work over the summer, either teaching summer school, tutoring, or doing odd-jobs (my pool guy is actually a teacher during the year). Many also have to earn continuing education/licensing credits, or are earning higher degrees (my oldest's teacher did this last year). 

 

edit: clarified that $51k is the average teacher salary

so they make 2k less than people walking out of college who are going to go off and actually do something AND receive a hefty pension when they retire?

 

Yeah, teachers are way WAY overpaid

This pretty much sums it up.

 

6 minutes ago, Imp81318 said:

I think the biggest thing that teachers' unions do for the teachers is put limitations on what the district can require of the teachers without paying them extra. If it weren't for the unions districts would require scheduled work and meetings outside of the work day for teachers and/or wouldn't give them planning time throughout the day. And teachers already work much longer hours than they're contracted for. 

Unions keep teachers from getting fired for poor performance.  You pretty much have to bang a student or s*** on the floor during class to get tossed.  But if you half a** it?  You get your yearly raise.

1 minute ago, paco said:

so they make 2k less than people walking out of college AND receive a hefty pension when they retire?

 

Yeah, teachers are way WAY overpaid

Most teachers don't end up qualifying for a pension, only 1 in 5 work long enough to get a full one. And new hires, at least in PA, have significantly reduced pension benefits compared to those before them.

Totally unrelated, PA has a teacher shortage. 

Did anyone lie to teachers about the compensation when they decided to go into the field? Nope. And they became teachers anyway. And get to be part of an organized crime group (the union) which gets them insane benefits. So either quit and get a higher paying job, or feel free to STFU. 

Just now, JohnSnowsHair said:

Most teachers don't end up qualifying for a pension, only 1 in 5 work long enough to get a full one. And new hires, at least in PA, have significantly reduced pension benefits compared to those before them.

Totally unrelated, PA has a teacher shortage. 

That's a good start.

15 minutes ago, paco said:

so they make 2k less than people walking out of college who are going to go off and actually do something AND receive a hefty pension when they retire?

 

Yeah, teachers are way WAY overpaid

I almost forgot.  They also only work 9 months a year

 

This means new teachers make $5,600 per month where as someone fresh out of college who is actually going to do something makes $4,416 per month.

 

Time to slash teachers salaries.  It's obscene tax payers are footing this bill.

Education system is broke, healthcare, immigration,Gun laws, voting rights is anything working in US ?

Just now, paco said:

I almost forgot.  They also only work 9 months a year

More like 10. Typically deep into June and they go back the last week of August, at least in PA. (I know Florida kids go back earlier in August but the school year ends earlier as well). They're in a week before the first day of school.  

They're paid based on the ~190 or so days they're obligated to work. Most teachers spend much more than 190 days working though. They don't stop working when kids aren't in the classrooms. Teaching prep alone translates to 4-6 weeks for most, and a lot of that happens in the summer when they're working with districts to revise the curriculum and getting their classrooms ready for the new year. 

Lots of Americans work hard, and that includes teachers. I'm not going to say that teachers are overworked, but their job isn't limited to 8am-3pm for the 181 days a year, which seems to be the impression many have. During the ~10 months they work they're averaging much more than 40 hours. Hell I know in my district just answering emails and managing parents takes up an hour or two for teachers most days. 

I'm not boo-hooing the workload for teachers, this is their choice, and even when they work in the summer it's a much lighter load. But the myth of the lazy teacher is really flimsy. I'm sure there are lazy teachers out there, but I've not met many.

Most people coming out of college work much more than 40 hours.  And how much prep do you really need?  If it really takes 4-6 weeks to prep for a lesson plan that really hasn't changed much since the previous year, you are extremely inefficient at your job.  Work smarter, not harder.

 

Then again, if they were capable of working smart, they wouldn't be teachers.