April 4, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, paco said: Yeah. Keep them occupied and behaved. Kind of like a ....... Also the more I think about this 72k a year.... A babysitter is on their own. A teacher has a whole support system in case the child acts out. The child misbehaves they get sent to the Principles office. So that's one cut. Plus the Principle has an assistant, so that's another cut. And if the child is really bad, that's detention, so someone has to watch the kid for that (lord knows the teacher isn't doing that, they peaced out by 4 pm), so that's another cut. Stopping right there, that drops them down to $18k. So throw in benefits and pension at that salary, and that seems right. Teachers have an entire curriculum handed to them. Hell a babysitter has less to work with.
April 4, 20214 yr 8 minutes ago, paco said: Yeah. Keep them occupied and behaved. Kind of like a ....... Also the more I think about this 72k a year.... A babysitter is on their own. A teacher has a whole support system in case the child acts out. Except this is where you're totally wrong. The situation is not the same when you and I were in school. Perhaps the biggest change and most significant reason for the behavioral problems in schools today is that administrators don't have the teachers' backs. You can't even yell at a kid anymore, lest they go crying to the administration that you "attacked" them, or worse, make up a story that you said or did something "offensive." The situation has basically been created where, as a rule, you cannot rely on the backing of your superiors. They will bow to the parents and the students, even (especially) in the case of poor performance. Unfortunately, many teachers are told by their colleagues when they enter the classroom that they have to simply cover their ass above all else.
April 4, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, binkybink77 said: Why I’m trying to break it down mathematically ?? You are trying to compare external factors to a situation that is not comparable. The poster was merely intended to provoke thought. However, if you want to compare the external factors and qualifications required of a teacher compared to those of a babysitter, it's heavily weighted in favor of the teacher facing much more significant demands.
April 4, 20214 yr 6 minutes ago, paco said: Yeah. Keep them occupied and behaved. Kind of like a ....... Also the more I think about this 72k a year.... A babysitter is on their own. A teacher has a whole support system in case the child acts out. The child misbehaves they get sent to the Principles office. So that's one cut. Plus the Principle has an assistant, so that's another cut. And if the child is really bad, that's detention, so someone has to watch the kid for that (lord knows the teacher isn't doing that, they peaced out by 4 pm), so that's another cut. Stopping right there, that drops them down to $18k. So throw in benefits and pension at that salary, and that seems right. Also you’ll need to factor in lunch breaks and they’re not with students for 8 hours, so it’a closer to 6 hours a day with students.
April 4, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Except this is where you're totally wrong. The situation is not the same when you and I were in school. Perhaps the biggest change and most significant reason for the behavioral problems in schools today is that administrators don't have the teachers' backs. You can't even yell at a kid anymore, lest they go crying to the administration that you "attacked" them, or worse, make up a story that you said or did something "offensive." The situation has basically been created where you cannot rely on the backing of your superiors. They will bow to the parents and the students, even (especially) in the case of poor performance. Unfortunately, many teachers are told by their colleagues when they enter the classroom that they have to simply cover their ass above all else. Given how terrible millennials and younger are, I'm not surprised. But how is that situation different than a babysitter? Do parents really allow a babysitter to yell at a kid but not a teacher?
April 4, 20214 yr 8 minutes ago, RPeeteRules said: Also you’ll need to factor in lunch breaks and they’re not with students for 8 hours, so it’a closer to 6 hours a day with students. Oh, for sure. Of two of the schools I'm thinking of, each MAYBE has 1-2 still there "after hours". And god forbid the administraion asks them to do anything above and beyond to help the school, if they do you'll have a mutiny. These aren't unsung heroes guiding our nations youth at the expense of some great personal sacrifice. For the most part they are losers (Trademark @vikas83) collecting a paycheck via the path of least resistance.
April 4, 20214 yr 12 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: You are trying to compare external factors to a situation that is not comparable. The poster was merely intended to provoke thought. However, if you want to compare the external factors and qualifications required of a teacher compared to those of a babysitter, it's heavily weighted in favor of the teacher facing much more significant demands. No the poster is to try to make teachers out to be martyrs like they think they are. In many schools they don’t even require teaching certification or classes in early childhood education to be a teacher. I went to Catholic schools and I actually loved my teachers. They are well underpaid when compared to public schools yet they are often better educators - because they are there for a purpose and a true mission. But most teachers want to be considered heroes not by virtue of their performance but because they simply choose to teach... which almost anyone can get hired to do. 12 minutes ago, RPeeteRules said: Also you’ll need to factor in lunch breaks and they’re not with students for 8 hours, so it’a closer to 6 hours a day with students. It’s a joke.. boohoo they have to grade tests outside of classroom hours sometimes. I watch teachers high tail it out of school immediately at the end of the day. It’s well known that asking for time outside of the usual hours will be met with major pushback. As someone who works their ass off and has always put in a lot of time if it’s needed to get the job done.. I just don’t respect it. Especially with the hero complex a lot of these people have.
April 4, 20214 yr 13 minutes ago, paco said: Oh, for sure. Of two of the schools I'm thinking of, each MAYBE has 1-2 still there "after hours". And god forbid the administraion asks them to do anything above and beyond to help the school, if they do you'll have a mutiny. These aren't unsung heroes guiding our nations youth at the expense of some great personal sacrifice. For the most part they are losers (Trademark @vikas83) collecting a paycheck via the path of least resistance. Most teachers take their work home from them and spend hours grading or lesson planning at home, and the administration DOES ask teachers to go above and beyond all the time: coaching, chaperoning, mentoring, running clubs and extracurricular. 7 minutes ago, binkybink77 said: No the poster is to try to make teachers out to be martyrs like they think they are. In many schools you don’t even require teaching certification or classes in early childhood education to be a teacher. I went to Catholic schools and I actually loved my teachers. They are well underpaid when compared to public schools yet they are often better educators - because they are there for a purpose and a true mission. But most teachers want to be considered heroes not by virtue of their performance but because they simply choose to teach... which almost anyone can get hired to do. It’s a joke.. boohoo they have to grade tests outside of classroom hours sometimes. I watch teachers high tail it out of school immediately at the end of the day. It’s well known that asking for time outside of the usual hours will be met with major pushback. As someone who works their ass off and has always put in a lot of time if it’s needed to get the job done.. I just don’t respect it. Especially with the hero complex a lot of these people have. You both really are totally out of touch with this situation, so there is no point in continuing this discussion. Apparently you never learned that it's better to just keep quiet about things you really don't understand, unless you just want look like a fool. If you want to keep prattling on a bunch of nonsense about how worthless teachers are, because I guess sh**ting on people makes you feel better about yourselves, go ahead. If I've accomplished nothing more than drawing the two of you out to explicate your arrogant, low-class attitude of dismissiveness and disdain toward public servants who sacrifice much and receive little for doing something that genuinely springs from humanitarianism, then I've done enough by simply exposing these character flaws in a public forum.
April 4, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Most teachers take their work home from them and spend hours grading or lesson planning at home, and the administration DOES ask teachers to go above and beyond all the time: coaching, chaperoning, mentoring, running clubs and extracurricular. You mean after a 6 hour day they have to compare a test to the answer key??? 4 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: You both really are totally out of touch with this situation, so there is no point in continuing this discussion. Apparently you never learned that it's better to just keep quiet about things you really don't understand, unless you just want look like a fool. Literally stated about having multiple family members working various jobs for a school. If you want to call it anecdotal, that's fair, but saying that I have no insight to seeing MANY teachers being lazy, over paid, entitled losers (TM @vikas83), just proves that you are showing extreme bias given your situation. 4 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: If you want to keep prattling on a bunch of nonsense about how worthless teachers are, because I guess sh**ting on people makes you feel better about yourselves, go ahead. If I've accomplished nothing more than drawing the two of you out to explicate your arrogant, low-class attitude of dismissiveness and disdain toward public servants who sacrifice much and receive little for doing something that genuinely springs from humanitarianism, then I've done enough by simply exposing these character flaws in a public forum. Got to give you credit, took you a lot longer to go personal than I thought it would. But you did, so I guess that says it exposes a character flaw. Publicly
April 4, 20214 yr Yeah I work for a school so I know more about the Human Resources aspect and the cost then you will ever understand. There are actually many great teachers out there - but it is a field with many lazy idiots who don’t know a damn thing about full time or hard work and want to be canonized for simply being a teacher. I was in a situation where costs were out of control and the faculty was asked to tie up their garbage and set it outside the classroom door for cleaners to pick up because it’s such a large campus and doing that one thing would save over a grand a month - and there was practically a mutiny and a full refusal to do so. It’s absolute entitlement and I’ve seen this for years from teachers. Teachers are toxic and their culture of heroism and entitlement when our kids are failing and falling behind is laughable.
April 4, 20214 yr 7 minutes ago, paco said: You mean after a 6 hour day they have to compare a test to the answer key??? Literally stated about having multiple family members working various jobs for a school. If you want to call it anecdotal, that's fair, but saying that I have no insight to seeing MANY teachers being lazy, over paid, entitled losers (TM @vikas83), just proves that you are showing extreme bias given your situation. Got to give you credit, took you a lot longer to go personal than I thought it would. But you did, so I guess that says it exposes a character flaw. Publicly Actually, you took it personal first by calling teachers many names throughout this thread. I take that personally. My response here was tame. I characterized the attitude and not the person. The views expressed here are are pretty transparently arrogant and classless, and I'm sure plenty would agree. Just calling it like I see it, and there's really no point in continuing to attempt an intellectual debate with people who be like "well, my cousin's best friend's sister is a teacher and she's a total slacker! Therefore, teachers suck! Not much for me to say to that.
April 4, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, binkybink77 said: Yeah I work for a school so I know more about the Human Resources aspect and the cost then you will ever understand. There are actually many great teachers out there - but it is a field with many lazy idiots who don’t know a damn thing about full time or hard work and want to be canonized for simply being a teacher. I was in a situation where costs were out of control and the faculty was asked to tie up their garbage and set it outside the classroom door for cleaners to pick up because it’s such a large campus and doing that one thing would save over a grand a month - and there was practically a mutiny and a full refusal to do so. It’s absolute entitlement and I’ve seen this for years from teachers. There certainly are some as you describe (I work with them), but I would not characterize anywhere near the majority this way.
April 4, 20214 yr 46 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Actually, you took it personal first by calling teachers many names throughout this thread. I take that personally. Saying they are "glorified babysitters" is an accurate description, not name calling. Unless there is something else you are referencing, which I am not remembering. 46 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: My response here was tame. I characterized the attitude and not the person. The views expressed here are are pretty transparently arrogant and classless, and I'm sure plenty would agree. Just calling it like I see it, and there's really no point in continuing to attempt an intellectual debate with people who be like "well, my cousin's best friend's sister is a teacher and she's a total slacker! Therefore, teachers suck! Not much for me to say to that. FTR, I ain't mad at you, I was pointing out you were claiming to exposes a character flaw while at the very same time calling people low class and arrogant because you don't agree with their point of view. Not your first time and probably wont be the last. It's cool, lord knows I get heated too. As for "well, my cousin's best friend's sister is a teacher and she's a total slacker", my POV is literally from the admin side of multiple family members at multiple schools who see the overall population of teachers failing, consistently. But because of the union, they remain.
April 4, 20214 yr Just now, EaglesRocker97 said: There certainly are some as you describe (I work with them), but I would not characterize anywhere near the majority this way. I would characterize the majority that way - depending on the school of course. Some school districts or schools have a better culture. But what I’ve witnessed is the rule and not the exception. I’m sure you care about your job and what you do.. I don’t think teachers are bad people. I just think the culture has become toxic.
April 4, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, paco said: FTR, I ain't mad at you, I was pointing out you were claiming to exposes a character flaw while at the very same time calling people low class and arrogant because you don't agree with their point of view. Not your first time and probably wont be the last. It's cool, lord knows I get heated too. It's cool, I'm trying to take these discussions more calmly, but it's hard to when the subject is personally relevant. It's not just the disagreement, it's dismissiveness that makes it seem like you're not even allowing the possibility to see things otherwise. And, I mean, ok, you can think that there are a lot of teachers who are taking it easy, and I know you're pretty critical of peoole in general, but you seem to go out of your way to be particularly harsh toward teachers. It just seems uncalled for. To be honest, I did not want to really engage you on this, because it felt like a landmine, but it also felt like I had to take it up. It was like "Sh**, I actually like Paco, I don't want to argue with him, but I think I have to here," lol.
April 4, 20214 yr 7 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: It's cool, I'm trying to take these discussions more calmly, but it's hard to when the subject is personally relevant. It's not just the disagreement, it's dismissiveness that makes it seem like you're not even allowing the possibility to see things otherwise. And, I mean, ok, you can think that there are a lot of teachers who are taking it easy, and I know you're pretty critical of peoole in general, but you seem to go out of your way to be particularly harsh toward teachers. It just seems uncalled for. To be honest, I did not want to really engage you on this, because it felt like a landmine, but it also felt like I had to take it up. It was like "Sh**, I actually like Paco, I don't want to argue with him, but I think I have to here," lol. Gotcha. And I don't blame you (which is why I aint mad at you) And again, I'm not saying all. But, totally anecdotal, from what I have seen from multiple family members, I can't respect the majority in their respective schools. Like schmoopie said, its a terrible culture I have seen. And honestly, you should agree. You stated the admin doesn't have the teacher's back. But at the same time, the admin team asks the teachers for something, and its a riot, I.E., don't have their back. It's awful. So on top of the pay\union structure I have issues with, which does NOT encourage the teachers to go above and beyond, there is this "us vs them" culture between teachers and admin. I honestly wonder, if you kill the teachers union, if that would help bring the two sides together.
April 4, 20214 yr 48 minutes ago, paco said: Gotcha. And I don't blame you (which is why I aint mad at you) And again, I'm not saying all. But, totally anecdotal, from what I have seen from multiple family members, I can't respect the majority in their respective schools. Like schmoopie said, its a terrible culture I have seen. And honestly, you should agree. You stated the admin doesn't have the teacher's back. But at the same time, the admin team asks the teachers for something, and its a riot, I.E., don't have their back. It's awful. So on top of the pay\union structure I have issues with, which does NOT encourage the teachers to go above and beyond, there is this "us vs them" culture between teachers and admin. I honestly wonder, if you kill the teachers union, if that would help bring the two sides together. I'm very grateful to be in a situation where the culture is pretty good. It's a respected school district where the kids don't often present the kinds of behavioral issues that would put you in a conflict with the administration. Luckily, there's not a lot of babysitting required and the kids manage themselves pretty well. Our principal is a pretty good guy, and the teachers are by and large both outstanding educators and helpful colleagues. It's a good community, and I try not to take that for granted. At the same same, the district compensates us relatively well. I think it goes hand-in-hand: When the employees feel like they're taken care of and can function in a comfortable environment, they're much more likely to have a positive attitude and more likely to function harmoniously as a team. It's very different, though, in a lot of urban schools, like where I student taught outside of Boston. It really does feel like a struggle for survival in a thankless job many of those teachers, and they're the ones who get paid the least. There are a lot of dynamics in the industry through, some of which cut across all levels and others that don't. There's sort of a class system within a class system for a lot who work in education, which is another side to the coin. The sense of entitlement that you speak of definitely seems to proliferate more frequently among those working in wealthy districts, which gives some a sense of superiority and makes them feel like certain tasks are below them.
April 4, 20214 yr 29 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: The sense of entitlement that you speak of definitely seems to proliferate more frequently among those working in wealthy districts, which gives some a sense of superiority and makes them feel like certain tasks are below them. This is the only thing I disagree with. While yes, its amplified, it is in no way exclusive.. The district my mother works for is in no way wealthy. The same "us vs them" problems prevails as well as zero motivation thanks to the union\pay structures
April 4, 20214 yr Why is it so hard that if you like the salary being offered, you take the job, but if you don’t, then you work somewhere else?
April 4, 20214 yr 10 hours ago, paco said: 180 school days = 16 weeks of no school JFC Most people work around 230 days in the US. And teachers work more than 180.
April 4, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, Seventy_Yard_FG said: Why is it so hard that if you like the salary being offered, you take the job, but if you don’t, then you work somewhere else? Sometimes, people want to fix problems instead of running away from them. What's wrong with pushing for positive change? Also, paying teachers better in low-income districts would attract better talent. A big problem in urban schools is that they get the least qualified teachers because of the low pay.
April 4, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Sometimes, people want to fix problems instead of running away from them. What's wrong with pushing for positive change? Also, paying teachers better in low-income districts would attract better talent. A big problem in urban schools is that they get the least qualified teachers because of the low pay. Its not "running away." You learn this when you live with people who have poor life habits, like smoking, drugs, poor spending, drinking, not cleaning up their house... You can't change other people. You can only control yourself. The best way to do you is to cut out the people that are bringing you down. In reality, that's the best thing for the other person with the poor habits too, because it's the only way they learn
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