6 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I have less of an issue with the Provorov trade. They got draft picks, which is what they want in a rebuild and they got a prospect. The two NHL players that they both aren’t very good. I think one of them is getting bought out. The bigger issue to me is trading Carter Hart. He’s 24 years old. Even if you do a rebuild, it takes 3 to 4 years, he is still in his prime when you’re getting out of that rebuild.

Add on it makes you have to go find another goalie. Which hasn’t been the strong suit for the Flyers. This could potentially be disastrous. If you trade him somewhere, and they have good talent around him, he might become what you thought he would ultimately become. And if that happens, then it looks even worse.

I think we need to stop acting like Hart is the second coming of Brodeur or Roy. He is an above average goalie who has a weak glove hand and still gives up too many WTF goals. In 3-4 years, he will command a big contract and who knows what type of salary that will be. Like I said, let some other team overpay.  I mean, look at Bobrovsky. He was looking all elite the first 3 rounds of the playoffs and now that his defense is a sieve, he has come crashing back down to earth. Fix the defense first then who knows, maybe they get lucky and draft a future goalie. 

15 minutes ago, vsptroops said:

I think we need to stop acting like Hart is the second coming of Brodeur or Roy. He is an above average goalie who has a weak glove hand and still gives up too many WTF goals. In 3-4 years, he will command a big contract and who knows what type of salary that will be. Like I said, let some other team overpay.  I mean, look at Bobrovsky. He was looking all elite the first 3 rounds of the playoffs and now that his defense is a sieve, he has come crashing back down to earth. Fix the defense first then who knows, maybe they get lucky and draft a future goalie. 

I’d be willing to bet if he goes to a good organization with good defenseman around him he becomes more than an above average goalie. Bob has won 2 vezina trophy’s in his career.  what greatness did the flyers get back that matched anything close to what Bob has accomplished even if he disappeared in the finals? 

also what makes you sure the flyers find a goalie? They found one in Bob then traded him away. There was a good 20-25 years where we constantly were ****ing about goaltending. If it were easy we wouldn’t have needed 2 decades to find an "above average” goalie in hart or traded away Bob to sign the humungous big goalie

The flyers better be damn sure making that move. cause if he after 25 when he enters his prime on a good team, winds up being everything the flyers and their fans thought for the next decade plus and you are endlessly searching for a goaltender for years it will haunt you for decades 

4 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I’d be willing to bet if he goes to a good organization with good defenseman around him he becomes more than an above average goalie. Bob has won 2 vezina trophy’s in his career.  what greatness did the flyers get back that matched anything close to what Bob has accomplished even if he disappeared in the finals? 

also what makes you sure the flyers find a goalie? They found one in Bob then traded him away. There was a good 20-25 years where we constantly were ****ing about goaltending. If it were easy we wouldn’t have needed 2 decades to find an "above average” goalie in hart or traded away Bob for humungous big goalie

You made my point. They actually found a goalie in Bob but thanks to Snider's impatience, they stupidly traded him away. Again, if this team was one or two pieces away from contending, I would say keep him. Since they aren't, you trade him (only for a good haul, I wouldn't just give him away). I also think you are naive that this rebuild will take 3-4 years. Maybe 3-4 years to be a fringe playoff team. With horrid contracts to Coots, Ellis, Atkinson, and now Sanheim, I think it's closer to 6-7 years for cup contender status. If that's the case, Hart will be in his 30's and past his prime anyway.

32 minutes ago, vsptroops said:

You made my point. They actually found a goalie in Bob but thanks to Snider's impatience, they stupidly traded him away. Again, if this team was one or two pieces away from contending, I would say keep him. Since they aren't, you trade him (only for a good haul, I wouldn't just give him away). I also think you are naive that this rebuild will take 3-4 years. Maybe 3-4 years to be a fringe playoff team. With horrid contracts to Coots, Ellis, Atkinson, and now Sanheim, I think it's closer to 6-7 years for cup contender status. If that's the case, Hart will be in his 30's and past his prime anyway.

so they found 1 in the span of 20 years til hart. You are under the assumption they stumble into another one when they haven’t shown to be a goalie factory. You might not get that goalie for 10-15 years. From hextall cup run in 97 to Bob it was about 14 years. 

Bob when he was here people thought he was just an above average goalie like you just stated about hart. Then he went on to win the vezina twice and he is considered one of the best in the league for a decade. He was young like hart and people were impatient about his upside cause they thought they’d seen enough that he’d be topped out. I think what you get in return could likely backfire and you see him become what Bob did and you are hoping to find your goalie and you don’t anywhere near the value they should’ve gotten. Bob might fail this cup finals but he got them there and he’s been fantastic til this series. He’s made teams much better with his goaltending even with the bluejackets. Bob went from every flyers fan saying he was just an above average goalie to a vezina winner twice 

i think their rebuild they are looking at is likely 3-4 years. If we are 5-6 years means your trade of hart and provorov didn’t work and they didn’t do a good job drafting even with some less than stellar contracts. He’s still 28 or 29 at that point if their goal is 3-4 years. Even if it’s 6 years he’s 31. That’s still in his prime.

We are also under the assumption cause he’s been up a couple years at 24 he’s topped out. I think there’s a chance he goes to a good organization and he becomes a star we thought with good talent around him. What good defense have the flyers had in his tenure at the nhl? Might be bottom 10 in the league for most of his tenure. Pandemic year might have been the only year they had a top half of the league defensemen 

i also think some of these picks they are picking up is going to be used to dump some guys you mentioned. Less worried about Atkinson. He has 2 years left he comes off when they hope to start making the jump. Coots, sanheim and ellis are far worse. I tend to believe at least two of those are being bought out at some point  

again flyers are playing a dangerous game. You better be getting a homerun return and pan out. cause if Hart gets better and lives up to what we initially thought then you have to find a goalie (not strong suit of the flyers) and fix most of your team on top of that. Cause if we get to year 5-6 and the rebuild works and you are continuously searching for a goalie then you are basically late 90s and early 2000s flyers that aren’t winning either 

10 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

so they found 1 in the span of 20 years til hart. You are under the assumption they stumble into another one when they haven’t shown to be a goalie factory. You might not get that goalie for 10-15 years. From hextall cup run in 97 to Bob it was about 14 years. 

Bob when he was here people thought he was just an above average goalie like you just stated about hart. Then he went on to win the vezina twice and he is considered one of the best in the league for a decade. He was young like hart and people were impatient about his upside cause they thought they’d seen enough that he’d be topped out. I think what you get in return could likely backfire and you see him become what Bob did and you are hoping to find your goalie and you don’t anywhere near the value they should’ve gotten. Bob might fail this cup finals but he got them there and he’s been fantastic til this series. He’s made teams much better with his goaltending even with the bluejackets. Bob went from every flyers fan saying he was just an above average goalie to a vezina winner twice 

i think their rebuild they are looking at is likely 3-4 years. If we are 5-6 years means your trade of hart and provorov didn’t work and they didn’t do a good job drafting even with some less than stellar contracts. He’s still 28 or 29 at that point if their goal is 3-4 years. Even if it’s 6 years he’s 31. That’s still in his prime.

We are also under the assumption cause he’s been up a couple years at 24 he’s topped out. I think there’s a chance he goes to a good organization and he becomes a star we thought with good talent around him. What good defense have the flyers had in his tenure at the nhl? Might be bottom 10 in the league for most of his tenure  

i also think some of these picks they are picking up is going to be used to dump some guys you mentioned. 

again flyers are playing a dangerous game. You better be getting a homerun return and pan out. cause if Hart gets better and lives up to what we initially thought then you have to find a goalie (not strong suit of the flyers) and fix most of your team on top of that. Cause if we get to year 5-6 and the rebuild works and you are continuously searching for a goalie then you are basically late 90s and early 2000s flyers that aren’t winning either 

I say 5-6 years minimum because unless you are drafting a McDavid, Ovechkin, Crosby, it usually takes players 2-3 years for them to even make it and stick in the NHL. Then it takes another 2-3 years for them to fully develop and understand the league and how to be a pro. That's where I get my 5-6 years from. This is also assuming they hit on most of their picks. Oh by the way, neither of the goalies playing in the finals were drafted by their respective teams.

Idk how anyone could complain about that haul, the players are nobodies, they're salaries that we took on in order to get those picks. We just got 3 picks for provorov, be happy about it we haven't won a trade in years 

Also, of they just got that for provorov, then if they DO trade Hart they are going to get a king's ransom whether anyone thinks it's deserved or not 

10 minutes ago, vsptroops said:

I say 5-6 years minimum because unless you are drafting a McDavid, Ovechkin, Crosby, it usually takes players 2-3 years for them to even make it and stick in the NHL. Then it takes another 2-3 years for them to fully develop and understand the league and how to be a pro. That's where I get my 5-6 years from. This is also assuming they hit on most of their picks. Oh by the way, neither of the goalies playing in the finals were drafted by their respective teams.

Well the coyotes were idiots for letting aiden hill go. I know i watched him in Tucson for their AHL team. He shouldn’t have been but bad organizations tend to do stupid things. So the two teams that had good goalies decided to piss them away were the coyotes and flyers. Not exactly great company to be in.

Also under the assumption again you’d stumble into a goalie from outside of the organization cause this finals it happened. I can list a ton of those that the flyers tried to in the past and failed. And goalie cost them many times over the years (amongst other things)

Again the flyers have been snakebitten with goaltending for years before getting to hart who’s 24. You are assuming will change cause it’s briere and jones or going into a rebuild or two cup finalists got fortunate due to bad organizations making bad decisions? Those don’t inspire confidence in me based off flyers history for 30 years and who owns the flyers still 

also it’s why it was stupid he flyers didn’t fire fletcher last year and then go into tank mode when there was a generational prospect in bedard. It’s why i don’t trust this organization in 2 years not to get bored with the rebuild then try to accelerate it. It’s why i also don’t trust them to win that hart trade 

Honestly, this is a great start to the rebuild.  While I will be upset to see Hart go, I feel a lot better about our ability to get value in the return deal.  

That said, this deal makes me pissed we didn't move on from Fletcher sooner. 

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Well the coyotes were idiots for letting aiden hill go. I know i watched him in Tucson for their AHL team. He shouldn’t have been but bad organizations tend to do stupid things. So the two teams that had good goalies decided to piss them away were the coyotes and flyers. Not exactly great company to be in.

Also under the assumption again you’d stumble into a goalie from outside of the organization cause this finals it happened. I can list a ton of those that the flyers tried to in the past and failed.

Again the flyers have been bad with goaltending for years before getting to hart who’s 24. You are assuming will change cause it’s briere and jones or going into a rebuild or two cup finalists got fortunate due to bad organizations? Those don’t inspire confidence in me based off flyers history for 30 years 

Like I stated earlier, I'm not saying trade him for peanuts, and I don't think the Flyers will do that. That dope Fletcher would though. If they get blown away with an offer, then he's gone. If they get lowballed, then he stays, simple as that.

I would like to go through the last decade of Stanley Cup finalists to see how many of those goalies were actually drafted by their respective teams. I bet it would be very small. Maybe I'll do that research later. 

38 minutes ago, 20Safety_Hazards said:

Honestly, this is a great start to the rebuild.  While I will be upset to see Hart go, I feel a lot better about our ability to get value in the return deal.  

That said, this deal makes me pissed we didn't move on from Fletcher sooner. 

What should piss everyone off is not firing fletcher after the 2021-2022 season and blowing it up. They wouldn’t have gotten into some of the bad contracts they did and they would’ve gone into a rebuild when a generational prospect was hitting the draft. 

i don’t trust the flyers org or ownership to actually do a rebuild right nor actually get the value for hart. I tend to think they wind up make a trade that in five years looks worse. 

 

44 minutes ago, vsptroops said:

Like I stated earlier, I'm not saying trade him for peanuts, and I don't think the Flyers will do that. That dope Fletcher would though. If they get blown away with an offer, then he's gone. If they get lowballed, then he stays, simple as that.

I would like to go through the last decade of Stanley Cup finalists to see how many of those goalies were actually drafted by their respective teams. I bet it would be very small. Maybe I'll do that research later. 

There’s a lot of them since the flyers last cup final  that were drafted or traded super early in their career before they reached the nhl level as prospects. Quick won multiple. King Henry. Tampa bay’s goalie was in Vasilevskiy. Holtby by Washington. Binnington for the blues. Rinne for preds. Murray and fleury by the pens. 

rask didn’t play for anyone but the bruins til his call up. But the maple queefs traded him a year after drafting him and it’s considered one of their worst trades. 

also 11 out of the last 13 cup winners have come from goalies that were drafted or traded before their nhl debut and came up somewhat through that organization. avs and this year’s winner. Chicago had Crawford who wasn’t great but won two. The losers have had over that time 7 of 13 that were either traded before they got to the pros and developed in the system or drafted and developed. So 18 of the 26. So it’s a far less traveled road to go out and find one in free agency or make a trade with a guy is ready. Now you can make a trade and get a goalie Prospect and have them grow up in your system. But it’s not like the Flyers have identified such great goaltending prospects besides Carter Hart, and Sergei Bobrovsky. And that took them about 14-15 years from hextall to bob. 

I am not saying they can’t ever trade hart. But you better be certain on what you’re getting back is going to pan out. Because I’ve seen teams trade always goaltenders thinking they’re going to get amazing package of picks and prospects back then they wind up getting little value in return in the long run and then goalie goes on to be better with a good organization. And knowing the flyers history with goaltending I would not be surprised if they get snakebitten again.

52 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I am not saying they can’t ever trade hart. But you better be certain on what you’re getting back is going to pan out. Because I’ve seen teams trade always goaltenders thinking they’re going to get amazing package of picks and prospects back then they wind up getting little value in return in the long run and then goalie goes on to be better with a good organization. And knowing the flyers history with goaltending I would not be surprised if they get snakebitten again.

Goaltender on an NHL team is just as important as QB on an NFL team, maybe even more so -- and that goaltender needs to get hot during the playoffs.  Unfortunately for the Panthers, their layoff before the Cup Final cooled down Bob's hot streak and he's no longer locked in as he was the past few weeks.

It takes much longer to rebuild in the NHL than it does in the NFL; the league cares very little about parity.  The existing rules now make talent in hockey almost secondary -- the teams that win have the best system installed by the coaches.  The Flyers have made a ton of bad draft choices and bad trades over the past 10-12 years, and now they're near the bottom of the league.  I wish climbing to the top was as simple as accumulating draft picks, but it isn't.  Hockey players drafted out of major junior are 18 years old and (unless a generational talent) take 3-4 years before significant return on investment.

2 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Goaltender on an NHL team is just as important as QB on an NFL team, maybe even more so -- and that goaltender needs to get hot during the playoffs.  Unfortunately for the Panthers, their layoff before the Cup Final cooled down Bob's hot streak and he's no longer locked in as he was the past few weeks.

It takes much longer to rebuild in the NHL than it does in the NFL; the league cares very little about parity.  The existing rules now make talent in hockey almost secondary -- the teams that win have the best system installed by the coaches.  The Flyers have made a ton of bad draft choices and bad trades over the past 10-12 years, and now they're near the bottom of the league.  I wish climbing to the top was as simple as accumulating draft picks, but it isn't.  Hockey players drafted out of major junior are 18 years old and (unless a generational talent) take 3-4 years before significant return on investment.

Yeah it’s why i really hesitate before trading hart. You might think he’s above average here but he’s also had a crap GM making moves and guys around him who weren’t exactly top half of the league most of his tenure. You might think you are getting a kings ransom but wind up looking worse down the road if he’s excelling with a good organization and the flyers are still throwing away picks and prospects that don’t live up to expectations. I’m still waiting on Morgan frost to be a top line player from flyers fans  

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Yeah it’s why i really hesitate before trading hart. You might think he’s above average here but he’s also had a crap GM making moves and guys around him who weren’t exactly top half of the league most of his tenure. You might think you are getting a kings ransom but wind up looking worse down the road if he’s excelling with a good organization and the flyers are still throwing away picks and prospects that don’t live up to expectations. I’m still waiting on Morgan frost to be a top line player from flyers fans  

If I were the GM, Hart would be almost untouchable.  He had one bad year in 20/21 that affects people's perceptions of him, but he is extremely talented and puts up solid numbers in front of a lousy defensive team.  The return they get for him won't be worth losing him -- unless you are damn sure you have a star coming up in the system.

1 hour ago, Alphagrand said:

If I were the GM, Hart would be almost untouchable.  He had one bad year in 20/21 that affects people's perceptions of him, but he is extremely talented and puts up solid numbers in front of a lousy defensive team.  The return they get for him won't be worth losing him -- unless you are damn sure you have a star coming up in the system.

That’s the biggest issue to me. People downplay his talent. He’s nowhere near reaching it cause of how bad our GM fletcher was and the talent around him. The biggest fear flyers fans should have is he goes to well run organization and puts better talent around him and he makes a huge leap. He is 24, so if he makes a significant jump for the next decade you are watching a potential vezina type goalie while you are hoping the prospects and picks pan out. could be a horrific deal. Add on flyers havent exactly been the model franchise with consistency in goal. 

Danny Briere’s first significant move as FlyersGM was a pretty impressive one, and he’s far from done.

Yes, he’s listening on Carter Hart, so we’ll see where that goes. But I think it’s just generally pretty evident Briere is approaching his job with an open mind and will consider almost anything that advances the program longer-term.

So, for example, my understanding is the Flyers would listen on Travis Konecny if a team really stepped up. I don’t believe there’s been anything thrown at the first-time GM yet on that front. But from what I’m hearing from league sources, I’m confident in saying that the Flyers will get a least one or two serious offers this summer on Konecny, who has two more years on his deal. It’ll be enough to make them think about it.

The rebuild is on in Philadelphia.

On 6/7/2023 at 6:27 PM, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Danny Briere’s first significant move as FlyersGM was a pretty impressive one, and he’s far from done.

Yes, he’s listening on Carter Hart, so we’ll see where that goes. But I think it’s just generally pretty evident Briere is approaching his job with an open mind and will consider almost anything that advances the program longer-term.

So, for example, my understanding is the Flyers would listen on Travis Konecny if a team really stepped up. I don’t believe there’s been anything thrown at the first-time GM yet on that front. But from what I’m hearing from league sources, I’m confident in saying that the Flyers will get a least one or two serious offers this summer on Konecny, who has two more years on his deal. It’ll be enough to make them think about it.

The rebuild is on in Philadelphia.

If you move Konecny and Hart you're tearing it down, Sixers style, straight to the bottom of the standings.  Not saying that's not a strategy, and it has worked in the modern NHL with the Avalanche in 2017, Edmonton and Toronto in 2016.  Even the Devils were 29th overall in 2019.

For me, I start a rebuild looking to keep only guys 25 and under; anyone over that age is likely irrelevant to a rebuild.  At present that looks like:

Forwards 

Right Wing -- Konecny, Tippett, Allison

Center -- Frost, Foerster

Left Wing -- Farabee, Cates, Bellows, Gauthier

 

Defense -- York

Goal -- Hart, Sandstrom, Ersson

 

As far as the draft goes, you're picking 18 year-old kids from major junior and it takes defensemen longer to develop on average.  Going by this list I'd take the best player available in the draft at my pick, as there are needs everywhere.  A really good d-man would be very tempting, and I'd also look to bring 1-2 in via free agency (not high-dollar guys) with Provorov gone, and DeAngelo needing to be gone.   

On 6/6/2023 at 3:55 PM, 20Safety_Hazards said:

Honestly, this is a great start to the rebuild.  While I will be upset to see Hart go, I feel a lot better about our ability to get value in the return deal.  

That said, this deal makes me pissed we didn't move on from Fletcher sooner. 

It’s insane that it took the sh**show he left us to see him get canned.  It went way past sane.

1 hour ago, MIRV Griffen said:

It’s insane that it took the sh**show he left us to see him get canned.  It went way past sane.

Yep, and don't forget we still have 7 more years of an injured Coots, 4 more years of no show Ellis, and 8 beautiful years of Sanheim. CF royally efed over this franchise. He has to be in the top 5 worst GM's in pro sports history.

On 6/9/2023 at 6:30 PM, vsptroops said:

Yep, and don't forget we still have 7 more years of an injured Coots, 4 more years of no show Ellis, and 8 beautiful years of Sanheim. CF royally efed over this franchise. He has to be in the top 5 worst GM's in pro sports history.

To the Flyers defense, it’s not like Fletcher did the exact same thing in Minnesota such that you could totally predict this exact outcome.  I mean if the dude had a track record for giving out bad long contracts that ultimately lead to a steady decline for a former playoff team and the flyers still decided to go forward with him anyway, I mean that would be insane.  Good thing this was totally unforeseeable.

2 hours ago, 20Safety_Hazards said:

To the Flyers defense, it’s not like Fletcher did the exact same thing in Minnesota such that you could totally predict this exact outcome.  I mean if the dude had a track record for giving out bad long contracts that ultimately lead to a steady decline for a former playoff team and the flyers still decided to go forward with him anyway, I mean that would be insane.  Good thing this was totally unforeseeable.

The most irritating thing in all of this is that everybody was ready for a rebuild last off-season (some of us like 3 years ago). fans would’ve been OK with it because we knew that needed to happen because they weren’t winning anything as constructed. Then we added crap to the team. Add on there was a generational type prospect that if you’re going to start a tank it might as well be that year.

Instead the Flyers messed around trying to make it like oh we can make the playoffs when nobody gave a crap if you made the playoffs if you weren’t gonna win anything. This is 100% Fletcher just trying to keep his job and the flyers ownership was so Fing dumb to keep him around. Now you’re starting it all over and you’re going into a basic tank in a draft in 2024 that doesn’t have as good of a prospect like the bedard. 

Valerie Camillo out 

4 hours ago, devpool said:

Valerie Camillo out 

If she was responsible for Gritty, then good riddance. 

I'm not anti-Gritty, but I am anti what the Flyers'/Comcast Specator's priorities were during Camillo's tenure which was more focused on merchandizing and keeping the team "competitive" (which was not really competitive, but it did just enough to maybe be a playoff team) to fill seats then to do what was necessary to get this team over the hump.