What Stage Of Franchise Quarterback Grief Are You In?

[EazyEaglez]

3 minutes ago, IFB DOG said:

I really worry about an Andrew Luck situation after Carson's injury last year. What Clowney did, and what the NFL didn't do as a result, are both disgusting.  It was a blatant helmet-to-helmet and could have ended his career.   Possibly did. We'll see.  He's made somewhere between $40-80 MILLION after this year (not sure what kind of signing bonus recapture the Eagles would look for should he retire). You could make $250,000 for 40 years and not even approach 25% of what he's made.

Dude is set for life.  $36,000,000 take-home pay... 2% return is 3/4 of a million every year, just on interest alone.

I'm sensing Andrew Luck this off-season................. Chris Borland retired after just a single year and forfeited a ton of his bonus in doing so.  IDK... the types of hits Wentz subjects himself to (OT during holding play??? WTF DUDE?!)... He should just call it quits before his wife is feeding him jello at 48. 

Well if there is a Luck like moment is that all that bad actually? Has Carson ever really been to a Luck level more than once in his career? Has Luck ever looked this bad for any stretch of his? I think the Eagles saw the writing on the wall as well. They drafted Hurts for this very reason. Every season this guy has been hurt, and he’s ended the last three on the sidelines and for the most part it was due to his reckless play. I’m sure he could like like a king back where he’s from off his salary he’s already made. Hurts isn’t some silly draft insurance. He’s a contingency plan. 

[20dawk4life]

2 hours ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

i have lighter fluid. 

Let's do it pookie!!!

[Vileborg]

He did a lot of work with a swing coach prior to 2017 working on his mechanics. Mechanics are not something you can "fix" and then never address again. It is a constant thing that you have to work on day after day.

 

Wentz main problems right now are mechanics and vision. He's not seeing the field well and he's not making good throws with what he does see. His progressions and decision making need to be faster. Some of that could be attributed to not seeing action in pre-season but some of it is just something he is going to have to focus on and attack.

 

I was looking at where he is throwing the ball. Left, Middle, Right and he's seems to be spreading the ball around but I noticed a high incompletion rate to the left side. I also noticed quite a few of the throws back to the left were design screens. I only looked at the Bengals game because of a lack of time. If anybody knows a good site that maps out QB throws I'd be interested to check out the statistics.

 

[PoconoDon]

9 hours ago, time2rock said:

Honestly I am more disenchanted with Howie and Doug than I am Carson.  Doug's play-calling is doing Carson no favors - it has been that way since 2017.  Also, that was the last time Wentz had a really good QB coach - Flip managed to get the best out of him.  Probably helped to have Reich on staff too - I'm sure he helped in Wentz's development too.  Replace those 2 with Groh and Taylor is a huge step down (collectively).  So the staff Doug assembled is equally responsible for Carson's regression IMO.  

Just like Cunningham. Great QB coaching but for far too short a period of time. Coaching quality is never replaced. QB then regresses some, and never fully develops.

[Traveler Vic]

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

It feels like you went through many different stages through this post. 

If you are a fan..that's what you do. Eagles is my team since 1979. Long time.

 

[pallidrone]

7 hours ago, time2rock said:

Honestly I am more disenchanted with Howie and Doug than I am Carson.  Doug's play-calling is doing Carson no favors - it has been that way since 2017.  Also, that was the last time Wentz had a really good QB coach - Flip managed to get the best out of him.  Probably helped to have Reich on staff too - I'm sure he helped in Wentz's development too.  Replace those 2 with Groh and Taylor is a huge step down (collectively).  So the staff Doug assembled is equally responsible for Carson's regression IMO.  

I would agree with this if Carson was a rookie or first year QB. He is in year 5. What exactly is a QB coach going to teach him that he shouldn't already be working on himself?

I think this goes beyond coaching and deals directly with the QB himself.

While it is impossible to know what is going on in the huddle, in the locker room, or in his head but the optics on TV makes it seem like he has no heart.

[EazyEaglez]

58 minutes ago, Traveler Vic said:

If you are a fan..that's what you do. Eagles is my team since 1979. Long time.

 

I feel like I’m very close to just accepting this who Carson is, but even I have been through all of these levels at varying points, because I’m still holding out hope that 2017 was the norm and not the exception. 

[time2rock]

15 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

I would agree with this if Carson was a rookie or first year QB. He is in year 5. What exactly is a QB coach going to teach him that he shouldn't already be working on himself?

I think this goes beyond coaching and deals directly with the QB himself.

While it is impossible to know what is going on in the huddle, in the locker room, or in his head but the optics on TV makes it seem like he has no heart.

Well he hasn’t had that strong QB coach since year 2.  Those guys don’t just work on mechanics with their pupil they also work with them psychologically, to help them deal with the ups and downs of playing the position and helping them to deal with the lows so it doesn’t drag them down.  You are right, the optics on TV aren’t good .... IMO it looks as though he is pouting and feeling helpless which is no way for the leader of the offense to act.  He needs to pull his head out of his arse (even when things aren’t going swimmingly) and get his teammates fired up and believing they can succeed.  The right QB coach could help with that quite a bit in helping him to get his head right.  

[EazyEaglez]

1 hour ago, Vileborg said:

He did a lot of work with a swing coach prior to 2017 working on his mechanics. Mechanics are not something you can "fix" and then never address again. It is a constant thing that you have to work on day after day.

 

Wentz main problems right now are mechanics and vision. He's not seeing the field well and he's not making good throws with what he does see. His progressions and decision making need to be faster. Some of that could be attributed to not seeing action in pre-season but some of it is just something he is going to have to focus on and attack.

 

I was looking at where he is throwing the ball. Left, Middle, Right and he's seems to be spreading the ball around but I noticed a high incompletion rate to the left side. I also noticed quite a few of the throws back to the left were design screens. I only looked at the Bengals game because of a lack of time. If anybody knows a good site that maps out QB throws I'd be interested to check out the statistics.

 

It’s weird because we know the Eagles rely a lot on analytics, so there’s no spreadsheet made by someone who can chart Carson’s throws and see where he has the most success compared to his failures? There’s no one in the organization who can plot his most successful plays? As far as Carson’s mechanics improving I think that’s a lost cause. I don’t think the great Bill Walsh could teach him to become more accurate and at this point he is what he is. I saw a clip from the 2017 season on a play against Seattle where Carson scrambled to his right, ran towards the line of scrimmage, but before he passed threw a rope to I believe Corey Clement for a touchdown. The ball hit him perfect in stride. The throw was pretty awesome, but if you actually watched his mechanics you would realize he didn’t throw the ball from a set position, he was on the move, and throwing off one foot. He really never was mechanically sound, and the Eagles knew that from the beginning. They wanted to sit him a year to try and rebuild his mechanics, but the Vikings came calling and offered a number one pick for Bradford. Even if Doug disagreed with the idea it didn’t matter, because Howie made the move. Carson had to learn on the fly and his style of play worked until he was injured in 2017 from that point it was off season rehab and again little chance to work on his mechanics. From that point on there was always something from more injury recoveries to Covid. At this point you have to just live and die with Carson’s mechanics, because there’s no one they can bring in at this point who can change them. Still someone should be able to chart the best way to use him.

[EazyEaglez]

Just now, time2rock said:

Well he hasn’t had that strong QB coach since year 2.  Those guys don’t just work on mechanics with their pupil they also work with them psychologically, to help them deal with the ups and downs of playing the position and helping them to deal with the lows so it doesn’t drag them down.  You are right, the optics on TV aren’t good .... IMO it looks as though he is pouting and feeling helpless which is no way for the leader of the offense to act.  He needs to pull his head out of his arse (even when things aren’t going swimmingly) and get his teammates fired up and believing they can succeed.  The right QB coach could help with that quite a bit in helping him to get his head right.  

The problem is the right guy isn’t going to tell Carson what he wants to hear and could lead to him not getting along with the quarterback and that’s clearly been an issue. Getting along with the quarterback is more important than helping him improve. That’s why Walsh wasn’t fired with the others. He and Carson "have a great relationship.”

[time2rock]

4 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

The problem is the right guy isn’t going to tell Carson what he wants to hear and could lead to him not getting along with the quarterback and that’s clearly been an issue. Getting along with the quarterback is more important than helping him improve. That’s why Walsh wasn’t fired with the others. He and Carson "have a great relationship.”

Walsch?  Or do you mean Press Taylor.  
 

But yes I agree, I think they are more concerned with pampering him by having someone Wentz "likes” coaching him than they are having someone who may be hard on him but is able to get the best out of him.  

[EazyEaglez]

Just now, time2rock said:

Walsch?  Or do you mean Press Taylor.  
 

But yes I agree, I think they are more concerned with pampering him by having someone Wentz "likes” coaching him than they are having someone who may be hard on him but is able to get the best out of him.  

I meant Taylor. Groh, Taylor, and Walsh are all like the same person to me.😂 

[time2rock]

11 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I meant Taylor. Groh, Taylor, and Walsh are all like the same person to me.😂 

They are in that they’re all weaker than the person they replaced (Reich, Flip, and Groh ... when WR coach), respectively.  

[EazyEaglez]

2 minutes ago, time2rock said:

They are in that they’re all weaker than the person they replaced (Reich, Flip, and Groh ... when WR coach), respectively.  

Well at least things are looking up! We have like 30 offensive consultants now and we finally scored over 20 points! #progress. 

[Hi I'm Your Uncle]

Acceptance. All I ever wanted as a fan was to see the Eagles win the Super Bowl once. Now that that has happened I'll take whatever happens in stride. Is it disappointing? Sure, especially after he looked so promising. I imagine it how Skins fans felt after RG3 tanked after his promising rookie season. 

[Arsenal79]

2 minutes ago, Hi I'm Your Uncle said:

Acceptance. All I ever wanted as a fan was to see the Eagles win the Super Bowl once. Now that that has happened I'll take whatever happens in stride. Is it disappointing? Sure, especially after he looked so promising. I imagine it how Skins fans felt after RG3 tanked after his promising rookie season. 

RG3 is a good comp for Wentz.  One great year, and straight down hill after that due to injuries and lack of development as a passer.

[Traveler Vic]

59 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I feel like I’m very close to just accepting this who Carson is, but even I have been through all of these levels at varying points, because I’m still holding out hope that 2017 was the norm and not the exception. 

Eagles 1st round draft picks:

2010 Brandon Graham - Reid's pick

2011 Danny Watkins - 1st Howie pick!!!!!!!!! One of the worst 1st round picks ever.

2012 Fletcher Cox - Howie's Best pick. Had to move up from 15 to 12 to get him. 

2013 Lane Johnson - Chip Kelly

(2013 Zack Ertz - Chip Kelly 2nd round..Could end his hall of fame career as the best TE ever.)

2014 Marcus Smith -Howie comes back with another monumental bust.

2015 Nelson Agholor- Howie's mediocre pick

2016 Carson Wentz- Howie pick that cost us a Fortune!

2017 Barnett - Howie pick and the rest of the draft class is Gone.

2018  No first round pick-but we did hit on Goddard in the 2nd

2019 Andre Dillard- Mediocre LT that we had to trade up for. Gave up a 4th and 6th in the process.

2020 Reagor - Howie pick. A notable miss not moving up for Lamb, who was within reach and was snatched by the Cowboys.

 

This is 11 years of Eagles Norm. A lot of rhetoric of "We should build through the draft" and yet in the end it is mostly hypocrisy. The only successful picks that were obtained, were obtained at a very high cost of mortgaging the future and moving up in the draft. Expensive free agents were brought in to fill the halls, but most of them, with the exception of Jenkins, Blount, Long, Mathis and of course Nick Foles were not major contributors. Howie was at the center of some of the biggest mistakes. So when I say in every post Howie has to GO, it is a cumulative over a 2010-2020 decade's grade. 

 

 

[gameshowfan91]

20 hours ago, Portyansky said:

I'm angry (bench him angry). 

This is where I'm at. I've been disgusted watching him for last 2.5 games, especially when Wentz had a great first half against Washington Football Team. Turnovers frustrate me. There's no excuse for Wentz to be this bad. He did good in last 4 games last (regular) season with similar offensive weapons. It also disgusts me to say this, but Dak is better QB than Wentz at this time.

[PoconoDon]

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

Well at least things are looking up! We have like 30 offensive consultants now and we finally scored over 20 points! #progress. 

Yeah, except it feels more like this:

"I'm Mr. Meeseeks, Look at me!"

...and none of them have a solution.

[eaglesfan0075]

2017 level Wentz is highly unlikely but even 2019 Wentz was much better than this.

I think the psychological factors at work are equally responsible for Wentz's struggles as is the poor mechanics and accuracy.

In any case, there should be no excuse. A better supporting cast can certainly lead to a better outcome but the elite QB narrative is starting to look like a mirage. There was a time where Wentz was considered just outside that Mahomes, Wilson, Jackson, Watson tier, but he's definitely at least another tier below that now. He was the MVP candidate phenom before getting hurt and Brady winning the award, while Mahomes did it the following year.

When all is said and done Wentz could end up like the Eagles version of RGIII. When the offense took advantage of his mobility and catered the plays to it, the team did very well (2017). When there was a push to convert to traditional pocket passing, or the QB adjusts his play to reduce injury risk, the QB play declined significantly. And both guys have a reputation for injuries.

[eglz1]

20 hours ago, downundermike said:

None of the above.  Our coaching and roster construction is flawed.  Need O line, offensive creativity and health.

I'm thinking along these lines. We don't know what is being coached and if Wentz is capable of doing what they expect. Think Lamar Jackson or Mahomes being coached to be a Tom Brady style quarterback. How do we think that would work? Maybe they're trying to coach to Carson's strength and he simply cannot execute. None of us know what's going on with that. Are the Eagles offense coaches so dense as to expect Wentz to be Rodgers or Brees or something? It would be nice to think not but ...... And yeah, there aren't the pieces on offense to make Andy Reid jealous right now.

[Vileborg]

For whoever is interested. Wentz's completion/att per area of the field.

27 Comps/45 Att - 26/35 Short - 74.29% (1 int) - 1/10 Deep - 10% (1int)

8/11 - Short Left (2,7,12,8,0,3,-2,11)  - 41 Yards - 5.13y/completion - 3.73y/att

0/4 - Deep Left - Hightower drew a PI (Play not Included in stats) - 0 - 0

8/11 - 1int - Short Middle (12,7,16,10,9,10,4,6) - 74 Yards - 9.25y/completion - 6.73y/Att

0/1 - Deep Middle - 0 - 0

10/13 - Short Right (6,9,0,3,3,11,5,0,4,7) - 48 Yards - 4.8y/completion - 3.75y/att

1/5 - 1 int - Deep Right (30) - 30 Yards - 30y/completion - 6y/att - Hightower drew a PI (Play not Included in stats)

[Vileborg]

Here's the Rams Game. Stats were obviously affected by pash rush and 8 sacks. Lot of short rushed throws.

26 Comps/44 Att - 25/40 Short - 62.5% (1 int) - 1/4 Deep - 25% (1 int)

12/16 Short Left (12,14,8,12,5,6,12,9,3,4,4,22) - 111 yards - 9.25y/Completion - 6.94y/Att

0/1 Deep Left - 0 - 0

5/8 Short Middle (12,16,5,10,11) - 54 Yards - 10.8y/Completion - 6.75y/Att

0/2 Deep Middle (1 int) - 0 - 0

8/16 Short Right (4,2,8,8,5,9,8,8) - 52 yards - 6.5y/Completion - 3.25y/Att - (1 int)

1/1 Deep Right (25) - 25 Yards - 25y/Completion - 25y/Att

[Vileborg]

And WTF while I'm at it

23 Comp/41 Att - 19/29 Short - 65.52% (1 int) - 4/12 Deep - 33.33% (1 int)

6/9 Short Left (-2,0,11,7,6,8) - 31 Yards - 5.17y/Completion - 3.44y/Att - 1 int

2/5 Deep Left (34,27) - 61 Yards - 30.5y/Completion - 12.2y/Att - 1 int

5/12 Short Middle (5,7,23,6,10) - 51 Yards - 10.2y/Completion - 4.25y/Att

2/6 Deep Middle (19,55) - 74 Yards - 37y/Completion - 12.33y/Att

8/8 Short Right (12/10/-4/12/3/-6/4/7) - 38 Yards - 4.75y/Completion - 4.75y/Att

0/1 Deep Right - 0 - 0

 

Season:

76/130 - 56.71% - 70/118 Short - 59.32% - 6/26 Deep - 23.08%

26/36 Short Left - 72.22% - 1int - 183 Yards - 7.04y/Completion - 5.08y/Att

2/10 Deep Left - 20% - 1 int - 61 Yards - 30.5y/Completion - 6.1y/Att

18/31 Short Middle - 58.06% -  1 int - 179 Yards - 9.94y/Completion - 5.77y/Att

2/9 Deep Middle - 22.22% - 1 i nt - 74 Yards - 37y/Completion - 8.22y/Att

26/37 Short Right - 70.27% - 1 int - 138 Yards - 5.31y/Completion - 3.73y/Att

2/7 Deep Right - 28.57% - 1 int - 55 Yards - 27.5/Completion - 7.86y/Att

 

Wentz is 4/24 (16.67%) with 3 ints on deep passes since the 17 point run against Washington and just 2/14 (14.29%) with 2 ints in the last two games. I'd be ok with around 50% but teams will just stop worrying about a deep threat if we can't make them pay for it.

He boasts a pretty nice 70%+ completion percentage on short passes to the left and right.

However, he spreads the ints around.

[JetroLot]

I'm in "he's a 28-year old tradeable commodity going into 2021 that can net us picks and save us a ton of cap money" phase. No sense signing talented wide receivers for him, he doesn't look for them. 

I'd move on. With or without the future in hand. Too many guys that are franchise players going into the 30's. Carson is worth at least a 1st rounder. 

Of course, this is all contingent on Howie being fired as the pick is wasted with him making it.