What Stage Of Franchise Quarterback Grief Are You In?

[echosam]

All of you would know better than me, but I thought I heard somewhere that the problem isn't Wentz doesn't have coaching, but that he isn't accepting any of the coaching he is receiving. He thinks he knows it all and doesn't need coaching.

I have posted a few times on this and the old boards that Wentz is not receiving the level of coaching Prescott, Goff and Mahomes are. But, if he isn't even listening or accepting the coaching he is getting... well..

Other thing. I have seen a couple of videos of Parcells (yea, remember, I'm a Cowboys fan) talking about players who no longer thought they needed coaching. He has mentioned specifically Drew Bledsoe and Q Carter. And led to both of them being either benched or cut.

[time2rock]

I don’t know what I may have said earlier in this thread, and I could be completely contradicting myself here now, but upon further thought I honestly think Wentz can still be a really good QB.  The more important problems IMHO are related to (1) Doug (ever since Reich and a Flip left the offense has been stagnant and uncreative and Wentz has slowly regressed without their guidance/coaching), and (2) Howie (as mentioned ad nauseam by many here, his track record with drafting is really bad leaving the team devoid of young talent except for very few pieces:  Goedert, Sanders, and maybe Reagor and/or Dillard (TBD on both of them).  

If our season plays out as many here suspect, I’d love for Lurie to take the bull by the horns and can both Howie and Doug, hire a new GM that excels in talent evaluation and together select a new HC that will hire the right staff including a strong QB coach to work with Wentz to help him get back on track.  I really do think he is an extremely talented QB but has lost confidence in himself due to the crazy offensive coaching staff restructure and lack of a strong QB coach to help him.  Plus Doug’s play-calling isn’t doing him ANY favors.  Seriously tired of both Howie and Doug.  

[Seventy_Yard_FG]

13 hours ago, echosam said:

All of you would know better than me, but I thought I heard somewhere that the problem isn't Wentz doesn't have coaching, but that he isn't accepting any of the coaching he is receiving. He thinks he knows it all and doesn't need coaching.

I have posted a few times on this and the old boards that Wentz is not receiving the level of coaching Prescott, Goff and Mahomes are. But, if he isn't even listening or accepting the coaching he is getting... well..

Other thing. I have seen a couple of videos of Parcells (yea, remember, I'm a Cowboys fan) talking about players who no longer thought they needed coaching. He has mentioned specifically Drew Bledsoe and Q Carter. And led to both of them being either benched or cut.

Well what is coaching then?  Because Nick Foles was quoted as saying Frank Reich was great for just giving Foles the plays and letting him play

[McNabbIsDone]

I'm at a loss for adjectives and there are no superlatives . . . except:  WE  REALLY  SUCK !

After our magic carpet ride of 3 years ago all of  THIS  is pretty hard to take. I'm done with

all our speculations b/c, other than known injuries & vague generalities, we only really know

very little of the true reasons why we've seen the  CRAPOLA  we've seen from this team thus

far. I'm done with all the media talking heads and I'm especially done with Howie, Pederson &

Spuds. I don't care what they say. At this point it's all 'Damage Control' trying to limit the $$

losses of the team. My name is now Thomas:  SHOW  ME.  And if they can't do that then I'm

not interested. I'll find something else to do.   

[EazyEaglez]

16 hours ago, time2rock said:

I don’t know what I may have said earlier in this thread, and I could be completely contradicting myself here now, but upon further thought I honestly think Wentz can still be a really good QB.  The more important problems IMHO are related to (1) Doug (ever since Reich and a Flip left the offense has been stagnant and uncreative and Wentz has slowly regressed without their guidance/coaching), and (2) Howie (as mentioned ad nauseam by many here, his track record with drafting is really bad leaving the team devoid of young talent except for very few pieces:  Goedert, Sanders, and maybe Reagor and/or Dillard (TBD on both of them).  

If our season plays out as many here suspect, I’d love for Lurie to take the bull by the horns and can both Howie and Doug, hire a new GM that excels in talent evaluation and together select a new HC that will hire the right staff including a strong QB coach to work with Wentz to help him get back on track.  I really do think he is an extremely talented QB but has lost confidence in himself due to the crazy offensive coaching staff restructure and lack of a strong QB coach to help him.  Plus Doug’s play-calling isn’t doing him ANY favors.  Seriously tired of both Howie and Doug.  

The funny thing is people aren’t holding Wentz accountable for his role in all of this. Wentz didn’t want Deflip back, because he didn’t get along with him. He wanted Groh gone, because he didn’t get along with him. He kept his QB coach and got him more responsibility, because he likes him. Wentz wants to be coached easy. Anyone who gave him a difficult time is gone. Anyone who harped on his mechanics is gone. He’s now free to operate as he chooses. It’s going into year five. Did Wentz bring in a quarterback guru this past offseason to help him work on his mechanics? How about a baseball coach to help him slide at least? Do you know of or have you heard of him doing anything this past offseason that would help him become a better quarterback? It’s hard to look at all this and not hold Wentz accountable for his own regressions. When you hear him talk about his mistakes it’s like he doesn’t even get it. He just keeps regurgitating the same tired lines. I’m sure he’s going to eventually have a good moment at some point this season where all of his fanboys will be able to say I told you so, but what they’re failing to see is that both quarterbacks are the same guy and he’s not going to be consistently good to great for this team to win anything of note.

[EazyEaglez]

Anyone else remember how they used to talk about the "coaching room” in 2017? It must have been a high level of expectations and assistance to one another. You never hear that anymore. Reich, Deflip, and Foles are all gone and you never hear that anymore. It’s like everyone who challenged Carson to be better walked out the door. Nevertheless Carson is happier now than he was back then. 

[Godfather]

I accept Wentz isn't elite. He's average

[EazyEaglez]

17 hours ago, echosam said:

All of you would know better than me, but I thought I heard somewhere that the problem isn't Wentz doesn't have coaching, but that he isn't accepting any of the coaching he is receiving. He thinks he knows it all and doesn't need coaching.

I have posted a few times on this and the old boards that Wentz is not receiving the level of coaching Prescott, Goff and Mahomes are. But, if he isn't even listening or accepting the coaching he is getting... well..

Other thing. I have seen a couple of videos of Parcells (yea, remember, I'm a Cowboys fan) talking about players who no longer thought they needed coaching. He has mentioned specifically Drew Bledsoe and Q Carter. And led to both of them being either benched or cut.

Q Carter is a dope, but I could see a guy like Bledsoe thinking he has it all figured out and begins to turn a deaf ear to coaching. On the outside the perception of Wentz makes people think otherwise, but there’s just too much smoke around Wentz not to acknowledge that maybes he’s more part of the problem than we think. 

[McNabbIsDone]

55 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Reich, Deflip, and Foles are all gone. It’s like everyone who challenged Carson to be better walked out the door. Nevertheless Carson is happier now than he was back then. 

Especially with that huge paycheck . . . what's not to like ??

[EazyEaglez]

25 minutes ago, McNabbIsDone said:

Especially with that huge paycheck . . . what's not to like ??

New paycheck, new marriage, new baby, and coaches and players who are afraid to challenge you. I guess the world is bright number eleven. 

[JetroLot]

21 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

I thought there was some kind of "opt out” either in 2021 or 22, but I can’t seem to find any information regarding an opt out now. In fact the only thing I saw was a 2020 option the Eagles were certainly going to accept. I think I saw something were Wentz has a pretty low 2021 cap hit, but if they released him I’m sure they get a huge dead cap hit. Is it true if they trade him and he restructures then they don’t get a big hit?

For you and @time2rock ...

I had my buddy who is super good with the cap look at it. He said none of the sites have the language up, so he cannot give a definitive answer. His comments were that on one hand, it says his 2021 salary becomes "guaranteed" in language, which may be why the cap indicator is putting it at $59 mill in dead money. That would not make sense. Way too high of a number. On the other hand, there could be salary being converted into roster bonuses next year which would indeed skyrocket his cap number. 

To him, it looks like he'd be under $10 mill in dead cap space for the next few years, but needs the contract to give a real opinion. So, we're F'ed. 🤣

If the season goes how I think it will, I would try and move the following and I know this is going to be a really unpopular opinion...

All of this is contingent that you are GOING TO FIRE HOWIE ROSEMAN

Trade Zach Ertz, Fletcher Cox (yes, I said that out loud), Brandon Graham, DeSean Jackson (this season), Jason Peters (this season if you can get ANYTHING), Alshon Jeffrey (I would trade him and a 7th rounder for another team's 7th rounder after June 1st just for cap relief)

I know I'm going to get kicked in the face for this post, but I'm keeping Lane Johnson, Brandon Brooks and Wentz as I don't understand Wentz' contract right now. Rebuild time. 

Was on the old boards since 2003 and never, ever a doomer. I think they need a drastic change right now. 

[JetroLot]

1 hour ago, Godfather said:

I accept Wentz isn't elite. He's average

Anyone that wants to try and convince me he is 100% above the shoulders can piss off. That kid is nutty. Something isn't right. 

[EazyEaglez]

7 minutes ago, stinkfist said:

For you and @time2rock ...

I had my buddy who is super good with the cap look at it. He said none of the sites have the language up, so he cannot give a definitive answer. His comments were that on one hand, it says his 2021 salary becomes "guaranteed" in language, which may be why the cap indicator is putting it at $59 mill in dead money. That would not make sense. Way too high of a number. On the other hand, there could be salary being converted into roster bonuses next year which would indeed skyrocket his cap number. 

To him, it looks like he'd be under $10 mill in dead cap space for the next few years, but needs the contract to give a real opinion. So, we're F'ed. 🤣

If the season goes how I think it will, I would try and move the following and I know this is going to be a really unpopular opinion...

All of this is contingent that you are GOING TO FIRE HOWIE ROSEMAN

Trade Zach Ertz, Fletcher Cox (yes, I said that out loud), Brandon Graham, DeSean Jackson (this season), Jason Peters (this season if you can get ANYTHING), Alshon Jeffrey (I would trade him and a 7th rounder for another team's 7th rounder after June 1st just for cap relief)

I know I'm going to get kicked in the face for this post, but I'm keeping Lane Johnson, Brandon Brooks and Wentz as I don't understand Wentz' contract right now. Rebuild time. 

Was on the old boards since 2003 and never, ever a doomer. I think they need a drastic change right now. 

Feels like Carson’s contract is so convoluted that nobody can figure it out. I was told when he signed it that it was a consensus great deal for the Eagles, but now it just seems like they’re trapped in it.

[phil77]

Is there actual quotes or articles about Wentz not wanting DeFlip but can’t find any proof any where?  Seems like message board drama since I can’t find anything concrete 

[time2rock]

2 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

The funny thing is people aren’t holding Wentz accountable for his role in all of this. Wentz didn’t want Deflip back, because he didn’t get along with him. He wanted Groh gone, because he didn’t get along with him. He kept his QB coach and got him more responsibility, because he likes him. Wentz wants to be coached easy. Anyone who gave him a difficult time is gone. Anyone who harped on his mechanics is gone. He’s now free to operate as he chooses. It’s going into year five. Did Wentz bring in a quarterback guru this past offseason to help him work on his mechanics? How about a baseball coach to help him slide at least? Do you know of or have you heard of him doing anything this past offseason that would help him become a better quarterback? It’s hard to look at all this and not hold Wentz accountable for his own regressions. When you hear him talk about his mistakes it’s like he doesn’t even get it. He just keeps regurgitating the same tired lines. I’m sure he’s going to eventually have a good moment at some point this season where all of his fanboys will be able to say I told you so, but what they’re failing to see is that both quarterbacks are the same guy and he’s not going to be consistently good to great for this team to win anything of note.

I don’t recall there being friction between Wentz and Flip or Groh (I do remember reading there was friction between Foles and Lazor back in 2013).   Do you have any sources to quote to confirm that?  Flip left because he had an opportunity to serve as OC in Minny (and run the offense ... something he wouldn’t get here had he been offered a promotion when Reich left with Doug calling the plays).  If Wentz does indeed have that much say in who should be coaching him that is a huge problem and blame should be placed heavily on Doug for allowing that.  

[Godfather]

50 minutes ago, stinkfist said:

For you and @time2rock ...

I had my buddy who is super good with the cap look at it. He said none of the sites have the language up, so he cannot give a definitive answer. His comments were that on one hand, it says his 2021 salary becomes "guaranteed" in language, which may be why the cap indicator is putting it at $59 mill in dead money. That would not make sense. Way too high of a number. On the other hand, there could be salary being converted into roster bonuses next year which would indeed skyrocket his cap number. 

To him, it looks like he'd be under $10 mill in dead cap space for the next few years, but needs the contract to give a real opinion. So, we're F'ed. 🤣

If the season goes how I think it will, I would try and move the following and I know this is going to be a really unpopular opinion...

All of this is contingent that you are GOING TO FIRE HOWIE ROSEMAN

Trade Zach Ertz, Fletcher Cox (yes, I said that out loud), Brandon Graham, DeSean Jackson (this season), Jason Peters (this season if you can get ANYTHING), Alshon Jeffrey (I would trade him and a 7th rounder for another team's 7th rounder after June 1st just for cap relief)

I know I'm going to get kicked in the face for this post, but I'm keeping Lane Johnson, Brandon Brooks and Wentz as I don't understand Wentz' contract right now. Rebuild time. 

Was on the old boards since 2003 and never, ever a doomer. I think they need a drastic change right now. 

No one wants to trade for Jeffrey and his contract. They can't even get a 7th

[EazyEaglez]

2 minutes ago, time2rock said:

I don’t recall there being friction between Wentz and Flip or Groh (I do remember reading there was friction between Foles and Lazor back in 2013).   Do you have any sources to quote to confirm that?  Flip left because he had an opportunity to serve as OC in Minny (and run the offense ... something he wouldn’t get here had he been offered a promotion when Reich left with Doug calling the plays).  If Wentz does indeed have that much say in who should be coaching him that is a huge problem and blame should be placed heavily on Doug for allowing that.  

I heard on the radio (back when Dflipp first became available) that not only didn’t Carson like him, but a lot of people in the building didn’t like him. In fact it was Lurie who blocked his first time leaving. Doug ultimately didn’t bring him back and once again said it was his decision. Okay Doug. Anyways we can go deeper. It’s pretty well documented that Deflip was tough on Carson. We also know Carson wasn’t a fan of Groh. Now how did Press Taylor keep his job knowing that Carson has been inconsistent for a few seasons now? Is that maybe due to the fact Carson likes him? In the end you will believe whatever you want. What’s fact is the Eagles had two opportunities to bring Dflipp back and passed both times. Do you really believe that if Carson wanted him here the Eagles wouldn’t have brought him back? 

[phil77]

18 minutes ago, time2rock said:

I don’t recall there being friction between Wentz and Flip or Groh (I do remember reading there was friction between Foles and Lazor back in 2013).   Do you have any sources to quote to confirm that?  Flip left because he had an opportunity to serve as OC in Minny (and run the offense ... something he wouldn’t get here had he been offered a promotion when Reich left with Doug calling the plays).  If Wentz does indeed have that much say in who should be coaching him that is a huge problem and blame should be placed heavily on Doug for allowing that.  

 

I can't find anything on the "drama" between Wentz and Flip either.  Seems like some made up drama to push the narrative that Wentz is uncoachable.  If they had issue I am sure there would be articles written about it like the articles about players wanting Foles over Wentz... 

[mjkvol]

On 9/28/2020 at 2:21 AM, EagleJoe8 said:

Between Lurie, who sees more than he should in Howie, and Howie, who will continue to steal paychecks with poor personnel decisions, and Doug, who either can’t or isn’t allowed to build a competent staff, and Wentz, who all the above seem to think will get back to his 2017 self, I think we’re going to be stuck in this rut for the foreseeable future. Be happy we got Super Bowl 52, we’re not seeing another for some time. 

This is why I can't check any of the choices above - until (unless?) we see Wentz again with competent coaching and with legitimate WR's and a decent OL, there is no way to judge whether he is 'the man' or a flash in the pan.

It all comes back to Lurie - regardless of whatever feelings he has for Roseman, he has to recognize that to a great extent 2017 was a perfect storm that just isn't going to repeat itself.          And he also must see that Pederson is clearly not the same coach he was when surrounded by people like Reich and Flip, and that has resulted in the inconsistent mess that Wentz has become.

If the last two off seasons haven't been enough to convince him that Roseman is not the man to rebuild an organization, and that the organization is indeed in desperate need of a complete overhaul, then you are correct in saying the downward spiral will continue.              

[EazyEaglez]

6 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

This is why I can't check any of the choices above - until (unless?) we see Wentz again with competent coaching and with legitimate WR's and a decent OL, there is no way to judge whether he is 'the man' or a flash in the pan.

It all comes back to Lurie - regardless of whatever feelings he has for Roseman, he has to recognize that to a great extent 2017 was a perfect storm that just isn't going to repeat itself.          And he also must see that Pederson is clearly not the same coach he was when surrounded by people like Reich and Flip, and that has resulted in the inconsistent mess that Wentz has become.

If the last two off seasons haven't been enough to convince him that Roseman is not the man to rebuild an organization, and that the organization is indeed in desperate need of a complete overhaul, then you are correct in saying the downward spiral will continue.              

I wish Lurie would open his eyes to Howie, but that man has been in this organization a long time and has survived a lot more competent football people than himself. I don’t think anything gets fixed until he’s gone, but I highly doubt Jeff will do the right thing here. This dude had been in the organization since 2000, and has been heavily involved in player personnel since 08. He definitely has a strong connection to the owner, and history shows Lurie is loyal to the people he likes. 

[McNabbIsDone]

I wuz just watching  Dak  SHRED  the Browns defense and wondering what he's gonna do to us.

     2 TDs & 174 yds passing . . . in the 1st Q !

                                         

[EazyEaglez]

Just now, McNabbIsDone said:

I wuz just watching  Dak  SHRED  the Browns defense and wondering what he's gonna do to us.

     2 TDs & 174 yds passing . . . in the 1st Q !

                                         

Oh that guy? He stinks! Clearly our guy is elite with more (insert all the arbitrary excuses people need to make themselves think Carson is better than he really is.) 

[Godfather]

52 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

This is why I can't check any of the choices above - until (unless?) we see Wentz again with competent coaching and with legitimate WR's and a decent OL, there is no way to judge whether he is 'the man' or a flash in the pan.

It all comes back to Lurie - regardless of whatever feelings he has for Roseman, he has to recognize that to a great extent 2017 was a perfect storm that just isn't going to repeat itself.          And he also must see that Pederson is clearly not the same coach he was when surrounded by people like Reich and Flip, and that has resulted in the inconsistent mess that Wentz has become.

If the last two off seasons haven't been enough to convince him that Roseman is not the man to rebuild an organization, and that the organization is indeed in desperate need of a complete overhaul, then you are correct in saying the downward spiral will continue.              

Go Vols

[JetroLot]

3 hours ago, Godfather said:

No one wants to trade for Jeffrey and his contract. They can't even get a 7th

That's why if you read it again, I literally said I'd trade someone a 7th and Alshon for their 7th. Meaning, I'd pure cash dump trade. I don't care if I go down in the draft, as long as he goes. 

That said, I agree with you in that I think anyone would let him hit the open market. Not because no one would want him if healthy, but because he has just been a constant mess of injury and frankly, what seem to be drama to me. 

[Godfather]

1 minute ago, stinkfist said:

That's why if you read it again, I literally said I'd trade someone a 7th and Alshon for their 7th. Meaning, I'd pure cash dump trade. I don't care if I go down in the draft, as long as he goes. 

That said, I agree with you in that I think anyone would let him hit the open market. Not because no one would want him if healthy, but because he has just been a constant mess of injury and frankly, what seem to be drama to me. 

My bad I miss that. I think they won't dress him the rest of the year. I wouldn't package anything with him to dump him. Unless it's Gerry