22 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

All sorts of things.  But in this case a Federal building get damaged and raided by a bunch of uneducated fools dressed up in silly outfits and Viking hats.  Quite similar to what happened to the Portland Federal courthouse.  

These people specifically stated that they wanted to stop the democratic process, egged on by the person who would benefit from the process being stopped.  They also specifically stated that they wanted to kill members of congress and the Vice President.  You literally have to 100% suspend belief to pretend like this was anything but an attempted insurrection.

10 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Right, and same for all members of congress too. Look, I know it's hard for you to confront the reality that the guy you worshipped for 4 years sunk your party for the foreseeable future, but if it makes you feel better to pretend like Jan 6th was no big deal, then have at it, brother.

Never said it was no big deal, in fact I've said the opposite.  I'm just saying that it wasn't the organized, armed "insurrection" that guys like you like to trumpet around about. 

I suspect you'll see in the mid terms that the Republican party may be wounded, but the nation still supports it's core ideals of small government, low taxes and states rights.  I just hope we can find a way back to them. 

5 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Never said it was no big deal, in fact I've said the opposite.  I'm just saying that it wasn't the organized, armed "insurrection" that guys like you like to trumpet around about. 

I suspect you'll see in the mid terms that the Republican party may be wounded, but the nation still supports it's core ideals of small government, low taxes and states rights.  I just hope we can find a way back to them. 

Stop moving the goal posts.

It was an attempted insurrection. They went to stop the steal. To prevent the certification of votes.

Some of them were armed.

Some of them were organized.

I do not believe anyone (outside the nutbags) suggests that EVERYONE there was armed, organized and intended sedition.

It is clear that some were. Some were armed and prepared to take hostages and/or kill.

4 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

Stop moving the goal posts.

It was an attempted insurrection. They went to stop the steal. To prevent the certification of votes.

Some of them were armed.

Some of them were organized.

I do not believe anyone (outside the nutbags) suggests that EVERYONE there was armed, organized and intended sedition.

It is clear that some were. Some were armed and prepared to take hostages and/or kill.

Saying the words over and over again doesn't kill the debate on the nomenclature that's been generated around this event.  I think insurrection is a stretch, it was a protest, that turned into a riot that turned into the storming of a federal building.  You disagree, that's fine. 

What really matters is that we are agree on the outcome...these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

This thread is about the Republican party and its future, yet this topic comes up over and over again.  Seems to me that many here are trying to connect this event to the greater party direction.  Why am I not allowed to debate that?

4 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Saying the words over and over again doesn't kill the debate on the nomenclature that's been generated around this event.  I think insurrection is a stretch, it was a protest, that turned into a riot that turned into the storming of a federal building.  You disagree, that's fine. 

What really matters is that we are agree on the outcome...these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

This thread is about the Republican party and its future, yet this topic comes up over and over again.  Seems to me that many here are trying to connect this event to the greater party direction.  Why am I not allowed to debate that?

So the people breaking in, shouting "HANG MIKE PENCE" were not there to stop the certification?

Sorry, not buying your RED colored glass view.

 

Let me add, as a veteran, you people make me sick. I have NEVER gone to a protest with armor and bear mace. There was only ONE reason to show up with armor, weapons and such. To use them. Stop pretending this was a peaceful protest gone wrong.

People showing up at BLM protests with molotov cocktails were not peaceful protesters, either. The idea is ludicrous.

13 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

So the people breaking in, shouting "HANG MIKE PENCE" were not there to stop the certification?

Sorry, not buying your RED colored glass view.

 

Let me add, as a veteran, you people make me sick. I have NEVER gone to a protest with armor and bear mace. There was only ONE reason to show up with armor, weapons and such. To use them. Stop pretending this was a peaceful protest gone wrong.

People showing up at BLM protests with molotov cocktails were not peaceful protesters, either. The idea is ludicrous.

The fake news librul media is lying about what was said by god-fearing patriots on that day. They were actually chanting "hang out with Mike pence" like to have a beer with him and chill. Funny how that part is always left out of the narrative.

1 hour ago, The Norseman said:

Never said it was no big deal, in fact I've said the opposite.  I'm just saying that it wasn't the organized, armed "insurrection" that guys like you like to trumpet around about. 

I suspect you'll see in the mid terms that the Republican party may be wounded, but the nation still supports it's core ideals of small government, low taxes and states rights.  I just hope we can find a way back to them. 

Yes, it was a fairly disorganized gathering of multiple fringe Trump wackos (some of whom self-organized before attending - i.e Proud Boys), that coalesced during that day into some organized portions to breach the police perimeters and the capitol itself.  Many of which were carrying non-lethal weapons (bear spray) and/or bats and poles and other objects that could be used to inflict blunt force trauma and were in fact used, by some, as "weapons".  

In general, you have the President of the United States coercing -- and encouraging -- an attack by the Executive branch (via its proxies) on the legislative branch (based on lies that the election was "stolen").  An attack on the citadel of our democracy -- with the purpose to stop a lawful electoral process.  Leaving legislators and their assistants, cowering in fear; running for shelter; and in the case of those in the line of succession, being transported away to undisclosed locations by the secret service.   Not to mention about 140 officers wounded - some severely.  With some later committing suicide or dying in the aftermath of the melees.  And an attacker shot and killed while attempting to breach the inner sanctum of the House.  

During the attack or whatever you want to call it -- the President of the U.S. (I shudder that he held that title) watched it unfold on television gleefully.  And despite pleadings from his aids, refused (for hours) to make a tweet or whatever to try to get them to stop.    All based on a lie (that Trump himself knows is a lie)?  An you like Trump and think he is qualified to hold office?  Shouldn't he be in jail for this?

But really its not an "armed insurrection" -remember that.  That's what is important - how we label it.  

But we shouldn't have a bi-partisan investigation should we?  Trump should not have been impeached for coercing an attack on the seat of our democracy (which is clearly not part of the job function of the US President) - right?    Nothing too bad to see here.

 

3 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Wake me up when the Democrats march on the Capitol to try and actually overthrow an election. 

There is no moral equivalence.

Wasn't the discussion about behavior specific to sexual harassment allegations and how the parties handled those when they were levied against their own members?  Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

2 hours ago, Toastrel said:

Stop moving the goal posts.

It was an attempted insurrection. They went to stop the steal. To prevent the certification of votes.

Some of them were armed.

Some of them were organized.

I do not believe anyone (outside the nutbags) suggests that EVERYONE there was armed, organized and intended sedition.

It is clear that some were. Some were armed and prepared to take hostages and/or kill.

It was crystal clear, yes.

2 hours ago, The Norseman said:

This thread is about the Republican party and its future, yet this topic comes up over and over again.  Seems to me that many here are trying to connect this event to the greater party direction.  Why am I not allowed to debate that?

They've had a couple chances to deal with this and chose not to.  First, the entire impeachment and subsequent trial.  Second, the possibility to get behind a real Congressional investigation.  Instead they've chosen to double and triple down on Trump.  They are as dug in as they could possible be at this stage.

Get back to us 5 years after they hit the entire reset button post Trump should that ever happen.

3 hours ago, The Norseman said:

Saying the words over and over again doesn't kill the debate on the nomenclature that's been generated around this event.  I think insurrection is a stretch, it was a protest, that turned into a riot that turned into the storming of a federal building.  You disagree, that's fine. 

What really matters is that we are agree on the outcome...these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

This thread is about the Republican party and its future, yet this topic comes up over and over again.  Seems to me that many here are trying to connect this event to the greater party direction.  Why am I not allowed to debate that?

And Trump should have been convicted on his impeachment, due to his part in the "event", including lies leading to it and cajoling the morons that were there on Jan. 6th.   Right?

1 minute ago, caesar said:

And Trump should have been convicted on his impeachment, due to his part in the "event", including lies leading to it and cajoling the morons that were there on Jan. 6th.   Right?

No. The impeachment was handled in a moronic fashion. If you don't have the votes, you can't blunder ahead and hope that magic will happen to change that.

Just now, Toastrel said:

No. The impeachment was handled in a moronic fashion. If you don't have the votes, you can't blunder ahead and hope that magic will happen to change that.

If there was ever a case for impeachment - it is the prez siccing his followers on the legislative branch.  I think they had to impeach - no matter what, and let the chips fall where they may in the Senate.   You got to.  This was the Commander in Chief basically ordering an attack on the citadel of democracy.  You can't ignore that.

1 minute ago, caesar said:

If there was ever a case for impeachment - it is the prez siccing his followers on the legislative branch.  I think they had to impeach - no matter what, and let the chips fall where they may in the Senate.   You got to.  This was the Commander in Chief basically ordering an attack on the citadel of democracy.  You can't ignore that.

You can act intelligently. Starting a shitshow that can only have one ending is stupid.

Just now, Toastrel said:

You can act intelligently. Starting a shitshow that can only have one ending is stupid.

So what could they have done other than impeachment? 

Just now, caesar said:

So what could they have done other than impeachment? 

I'm not sure.

What I am sure of, is that when you have HUNDREDS of GOP congress shitbirds prepared to object to certifying an election that is already over, it is the height of folly, to think that a vote requiring their assistance. a vote against their candidate, is going to happen.

You'd have to be stupid.

5 hours ago, The Norseman said:

I'm not defending them in any way whatsoever.  This was the single biggest stain on the Republican party in my lifetime and I'm ashamed that it happened.  You can call it whatever you want, and I think that we should absolutely treat it seriously to send a loud a clear message.

But to suggest that a small number of fools with no real ability to accomplish anything was in some way representative of all Republican's in this country you are really reaching.  Just as the violent liberals in Portland don't represent all Democrats, this group in DC doesn't represent Republicans. 

Don't a few polls show that about 70% of republicans believe the election was stolen? If you buy into Trump's narrative that the election was rigged, and the White House was stolen, how could you NOT support some attempt at seizing back power? Otherwise, what are the 70% thinking? "The election was stolen, and my country's govt was hijacked but we'll peacefully vote them out next time?" It's the mass belief in a VERY poorly-constructed conspiracy theory that separates the threat of these folks from the violent weirdos in Portland. Trump called it rigged when he lost to Ted Cruz in the Iowa Caucus, he called it rigged when he was polling behind Hillary, and he calls it rigged now that he lost....and 70% of these morons say, "Yep. That sounds legit." 

4 hours ago, The Norseman said:

I suspect you'll see in the mid terms that the Republican party may be wounded, but the nation still supports it's core ideals of small government, low taxes and states rights.  I just hope we can find a way back to them. 

What signs do you see that the GOP is heading back towards promoting small government, low taxes and states' rights? I think that is the point of the thread.

6 minutes ago, Lloyd said:

Don't a few polls show that about 70% of republicans believe the election was stolen? If you buy into Trump's narrative that the election was rigged, and the White House was stolen, how could you NOT support some attempt at seizing back power? Otherwise, what are the 70% thinking? "The election was stolen, and my country's govt was hijacked but we'll peacefully vote them out next time?" It's the mass belief in a VERY poorly-constructed conspiracy theory that separates the threat of these folks from the violent weirdos in Portland. Trump called it rigged when he lost to Ted Cruz in the Iowa Caucus, he called it rigged when he was polling behind Hillary, and he calls it rigged now that he lost....and 70% of these morons say, "Yep. That sounds legit." 

First of all the only place I've seen that poll cited is in this forum...so If someone has it, I'd like to see it.  

However, I think the majority of Republican's do believe that the goal posts were changed for the electoral process in 2020 as a result of Covid.  This very likely helped Democrats in terms of voter turnout and helped Biden.  That being said, no intelligent Republican that I know thinks that opening up voting to mail in, drop boxes etc. was the wrong thing to do under the circumstances....they're more interested in whether we keep them open post pandemic. 

What I'm saying is that I can see that poll being accurate if what it's really saying is that those on the right think the pandemic era changes to voting structure helped Biden and may have swung the election.  I mean, Democrats biggest Achilles heel in elections is always voter turnout, so I'm not even sure this argument is debatable.  But if it wasn't done illegally and it wasn't the the wrong thing to do (as it helped voters through the pandemic)...then the argument pretty much dies there, right?

"Stolen" suggest illegal votes and some master plan to generate them.  There has been absolutely no credible evidence of that. 

3 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

First of all the only place I've seen that poll cited is in this forum...so If someone has it, I'd like to see it.  

However, I think the majority of Republican's do believe that the goal posts were changed for the electoral process in 2020 as a result of Covid.  This very likely helped Democrats in terms of voter turnout and helped Biden.  That being said, no intelligent Republican that I know thinks that opening up voting to mail in, drop boxes etc. was the wrong thing to do under the circumstances....they're more interested in whether we keep them open post pandemic. 

What I'm saying is that I can see that poll being accurate if what it's really saying is that those on the right think the pandemic era changes to voting structure helped Biden and may have swung the election.  I mean, Democrats biggest Achilles heel in elections is always voter turnout, so I'm not even sure this argument is debatable.  But if it wasn't done illegally and it wasn't the the wrong thing to do (as it helped voters through the pandemic)...then the argument pretty much dies there, right?

"Stolen" suggest illegal votes and some master plan to generate them.  There has been absolutely no credible evidence of that. 

1. Trump lost because HE SHOT HIMSELF IN THE FOOT. It wasn't moving goalposts. It wasn't a scam. Trump told his supporters NOT TO VOTE BY MAIL (he did, by the way) and told them IT WAS ALL RIGGED. He suppressed his own vote. Had he not, he would have won easily.

2. 70% of the GOP still think the election was stolen, so I think you are in a small minority in the GOP.

18 minutes ago, toolg said:

What signs do you see that the GOP is heading back towards promoting small government, low taxes and states' rights? I think that is the point of the thread.

Trump drove deregulation in the Federal government, lowered taxes and resisted federalizing decisions around Covid to give state Governor's more control.  

Now, before this turns into a Trump bash session, let me make it clear that I'm not making an argument that he was some amazing President.  Only that these core pillars of the party seemed to persevere even through his messy presidency.  

I think the bulk of the country supports these ideals and I think you'll see that echoed in the mid term elections.  

https://news.yahoo.com/poll-two-thirds-of-republicans-still-think-the-2020-election-was-rigged-165934695.html

Quote

The survey of 1,552 U.S. adults, which was conducted from July 30 to Aug. 2, found that 66 percent of Republicans continue to insist that "the election was rigged and stolen from Trump,” while just 18 percent believe "Joe Biden won fair and square.” Twenty-eight percent of independent voters also said they think Trump was the rightful winner of the 2020 election, as did a small 3 percent of Democrats.

 

8 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

What I'm saying is that I can see that poll being accurate if what it's really saying is that those on the right think the pandemic era changes to voting structure helped Biden and may have swung the election.  I mean, Democrats biggest Achilles heel in elections is always voter turnout, so I'm not even sure this argument is debatable.  But if it wasn't done illegally and it wasn't the the wrong thing to do (as it helped voters through the pandemic)...then the argument pretty much dies there, right?

Yes. To those who can accept that the sky is blue and water is wet, it should die there. But since Trump is still, quite comfortably, fundraising off of this lie, and many GOP politicians feel their only way to keep their voters is to repeat the lie, it tells you that there's a very large audience for the lie. Politics is a product...if the message wasn't selling, they'd change to a new message. It's a money-maker, so it continues. 

3 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

1. Trump lost because HE SHOT HIMSELF IN THE FOOT. It wasn't moving goalposts. It wasn't a scam. Trump told his supporters NOT TO VOTE BY MAIL (he did, by the way) and told them IT WAS ALL RIGGED. He suppressed his own vote. Had he not, he would have won easily.

2. 70% of the GOP still think the election was stolen, so I think you are in a small minority in the GOP.

Take a breath.  I'm simply trying to answer the question of why this often cited, never produced poll might be accurate.  If you want to have a separate discussion as to how Trump blew the election I'd be happy to have it and we'd probably agree on most things.  However, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. 

4 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Take a breath.  I'm simply trying to answer the question of why this often cited, never produced poll might be accurate.  If you want to have a separate discussion as to how Trump blew the election I'd be happy to have it and we'd probably agree on most things.  However, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. 

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_062121/

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2021-05/Ipsos Reuters Topline Write up- The Big Lie - 17 May thru 19 May 2021.pdf

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/04/30/rel3e.-.voting.and.elections.pdf

Now you can stop with the "never produced poll" lie.