Another viewpoint on Howie

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, Infam said:

The way Lurie said that the new coach has to be a leader of coaches (first thing he said) still resonates with me.

Felt like DP -whom I liked- was not.

Yeah it seems from the outside that Doug was not good with his coaches. High turnover, questionable promotions and sticking by guys who weren't cutting it. 

[Bwestbrook36]

The way the FO changes what they want in coaches and players every year tells me they don't know what the eff they want. 

[Guest]

Just now, Bwestbrook36 said:

The way the FO changes what they want in coaches and players every year tells me they don't know what the eff they want. 

Our FO is a clown show

[NOTW]

It all starts at the top.  You have to have a GM that understands how to build a team (and an owner that doesn't interfere in the football decisions).  Howie seems to be learning on the job every year.  They change their philosophy and scheme with each coaching hire.  They change their cute little mantras like innovation with Chip, emotional intelligence with Doug, competition and teaching with Siri.  The organization's only identity is that Lurie wants to focus on offense and scoring points, and they do tend to focus on building both lines.

The organization needs an identity and philosophy with core values.  Then a GM with that vision makes EVERY decision in line with that philosophy.  You don't have to rebuild and change identity with each coach.  You don't have to turnover the roster to "find the type of players the coach wants" if YOU as the GM set that tone.  The GM sets the tone of what type of team, coach, philosophy and players the team will be about.  Then you make every player selection and every coaching hire within that philosophy.

Howie's early days were just with contracts and salary cap, learning from Banner.  He tried the Dream Team fiasco, then had to learn that's not the way.  He figured out he wanted to extend/keep their core players and immediately extended players the year after Dream Team.  He made good FA and trade acquisitions to help them win a Super Bowl.  They decided they wanted to be a QB University when they drafted Wentz after signing Bradford to a 2 year extension and signing Chase Daniel.  Then decided they're a "QB Factory" when they drafted Hurts a year after extending Carson to a huge contract.  Last year Howie just wanted to draft speed and throw a bunch of WR draft picks at the wall.  He's tried to clone Alshon with JJAW, and DeSean Jackson with several attempts, Sproles with Boston Scott (and Pumphrey LOL), now Kelce with Dickerson.  

Howie doesn't know how to draft well consistently and to build a team through the draft.  He makes up for it with trades and signing proven free agents.  He likes to wheel and deal with draft picks.  He celebrates having a lot of draft capital but a lot of it are late round picks that get cut in a couple years anyway.  He collects early round picks and doesn't use them on players, he trades them away to trade up and put all his eggs in one basket, trade for players from another team, or trade back to collect more picks.  

Since Reid left, Howie has not drafted a true difference maker on defense.  They find late round gems that the coaches and scouts clamor for and by that time Howie isn't trying to make a splash anymore it's clear they stick to their board then.  

There are too many reports of Lurie meddling, Lurie and Howie vetoing the scouts too much, Howie dictating which players can dress on game day and other dysfunction.  Howie is like the government when it comes to the salary cap:  he creates the problems, then is the only one who can fix them.  He used to be lauded as a cap genius, but he kicks the can down the road too much and has money tied up in old or injury prone players.  Because of the failure at the QB position they took a guy they once made a multi-pick trade up to get, and traded him for a 3rd and potential 1st and had to eat a lot of dead money.  And they aren't sure about Hurts so they're collecting picks next year to trade or draft a QB.  

They need a GM to build a team, not re-learn the job every offseason.

[PoconoDon]

@NOTW you know, some people gain 20 years' experience and some gain 1 year's experience 20 times in a row. We know which Howie is, and we know Lurie won't do anything about it.

Sad times ahead.

[Infam]

On 5/19/2021 at 5:32 PM, NOTW said:

The organization's only identity is that Lurie wants to focus on offense and scoring points, and they do tend to focus on building both lines.

Sounds good to me.

[Infam]

On 5/19/2021 at 5:32 PM, NOTW said:

He celebrates having a lot of draft capital but a lot of it are late round picks that get cut in a couple years anyway. 

 

On 5/19/2021 at 5:32 PM, NOTW said:

They find late round gems that the coaches and scouts clamor for and by that time Howie isn't trying to make a splash anymore it's clear they stick to their board then.

Seriously?

[Traveler Vic]

Howie is an actor who plays multiple roles. Forget about relating to him..but instead try to understand his functionality. 

#1 He is the bagman for the owner

#2 He is an enforcer of analytics, and everything that that means..each player time on the field, coaches decisions..etc...

#3 He has a trait of the gambler, especially during the draft, preferring high risk and possible higher ceiling to safer bets

#4 He is a bully, who intimidates others around him..as in:" I picked this guy... Don't you like him? Why don't like him? ..Do you like him? Do you like him now?...."

#5 He has survivability instincts second only to Satan 

#6 He understands football..but not enough to ever join the best 10 NFL GMs of the decade list

#7 He is a mascot, whose job is to fist bump everyone, until unity is achieved 

#8 LOL

 

[Vileborg]

As has been said, the problem with Howie is that the consensus pick doesn't end up on the draft card and then the coaching staff is left with a piece that doesn't fit the scheme.

 

There is no way to spin that kind of incompetence.

[Talonblood]

Nope, it's Howie.

[EazyEaglez]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:05 PM, PoconoDon said:

@NOTW you know, some people gain 20 years' experience and some gain 1 year's experience 20 times in a row. We know which Howie is, and we know Lurie won't do anything about it.

Sad times ahead.

The problem is during Howie’s 20 year tenure the Eagles basically have 4 losing seasons. They also have two Super Bowl appearances, a Super Bowl victory, and several division championships. The truth is they’ve had more success than failure and anytime things got bad they fired a coach and soon after they’re back on track. I don’t like Howie and think he should’ve been fired a long time ago, but the the truth is there hasn’t been a steady dose of losing in Philly under Lurie or Howie’s tenure. How can you expect him to learn from success? He’s not going to change the way he does things unless he’s forced out. Howie’s been a suspect drafter for sometime now, but still the Eagles have won with him as GM. It is what it is. 

[PoconoDon]

4 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

The problem is during Howie’s 20 year tenure the Eagles basically have 4 losing seasons. They also have two Super Bowl appearances, a Super Bowl victory, and several division championships. The truth is they’ve had more success than failure and anytime things got bad they fired a coach and soon after they’re back on track. I don’t like Howie and think he should’ve been fired a long time ago, but the the truth is there hasn’t been a steady dose of losing in Philly under Lurie or Howie’s tenure. How can you expect him to learn from success? He’s not going to change the way he does things unless he’s forced out. Howie’s been a suspect drafter for sometime now, but still the Eagles have won with him as GM. It is what it is. 

And he is what he is. Time will tell the tale.

[EazyEaglez]

2 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

And he is what he is. Time will tell the tale.

I hope you’re right, because so far for the last 20 years he looks way better than he probably should. 

[PoconoDon]

1 minute ago, EazyEaglez said:

I hope you’re right, because so far for the last 20 years he looks way better than he probably should. 

He wasn't truly in charge for most of those years. Reid and Chip were top dogs for most of them. All that munchkin has to do is trust his scouting department and stick to their board in the draft, and his performance will improve a good deal.

[EazyEaglez]

5 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

He wasn't truly in charge for most of those years. Reid and Chip were top dogs for most of them. All that munchkin has to do is trust his scouting department and stick to their board in the draft, and his performance will improve a good deal.

I’d say Howie really got power in 2010 and lost it around 2014 -15 and as of right now has more power than he ever had before. The only way we see Lurie move on from Howie would be due to three to five years of consecutively bad football and I don’t wish to see that. Right now the resume is just too strong (at least in his mind) to make a move. It should also be noted that the Eagles are making a lot of money during this era too. Howie’s getting Lurie paid. 

[PoconoDon]

11 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I’d say Howie really got power in 2010 and lost it around 2014 -15 and as of right now has more power than he ever had before. The only way we see Lurie move on from Howie would be due to three to five years of consecutively bad football and I don’t wish to see that. Right now the resume is just too strong (at least in his mind) to make a move. It should also be noted that the Eagles are making a lot of money during this era too. Howie’s getting Lurie paid. 

I'd say Reid from 2000 through 2012, Howie for 2 seasons, Chip for 1 season, Howie back in 2016 to present. As the last and best of Reid's and Chip's players leave and must be replaced through the draft, Howie will either pass or fail. We'll see. I agree that he's not going away any time soon. He was smart to get extra picks for the next draft which should have extra good prospects due to COVID-related delayed declarations in 2020. I want him to be the best GM of all time, bar none. At this time, I don't expect it.

[EazyEaglez]

8 hours ago, PoconoDon said:

I'd say Reid from 2000 through 2012, Howie for 2 seasons, Chip for 1 season, Howie back in 2016 to present. As the last and best of Reid's and Chip's players leave and must be replaced through the draft, Howie will either pass or fail. We'll see. I agree that he's not going away any time soon. He was smart to get extra picks for the next draft which should have extra good prospects due to COVID-related delayed declarations in 2020. I want him to be the best GM of all time, bar none. At this time, I don't expect it.

When Reid’s sons got into trouble and the one eventually died, Reid began to lose power within the organization at that moment. Howie seized more power at that time. That’s why Reid didn’t want to be away for a long time, because he knew he was losing power in the organization and eventually he was fired. Howie Roseman was responsible for the selection of Danny Watkins and that was all the way back in 2010. Ultimately I’m just stating the Eagles view Roseman much better than most teams do and they have their own stats to back themselves up in their claims. It’s going to need to be a catastrophic failure for Roseman to be replaced at this point. Something on the level of multiple 2-3 win seasons and fans not going to games. I hear and see people claiming this will be another bad year, but I guarantee you those seats will be filled. Lurie making money is not good for the removal of Roseman. 

[EagleVA]

On 5/19/2021 at 11:32 AM, NOTW said:

Howie seems to be learning on the job every year. 

I don't see any learning what-so-ever.

During the SB year you would have thought he learned the value of the big back, we had two that year, apprently he didn't learn a damn thing, no big backs on the roster to keep the chains movingm and please, don't mention Jordan "One Yard and a Cloud of Dust" Howard.

[brkmsn]

16 hours ago, EagleVA said:

I don't see any learning what-so-ever.

During the SB year you would have thought he learned the value of the big back, we had two that year, apprently he didn't learn a damn thing, no big backs on the roster to keep the chains movingm and please, don't mention Jordan "One Yard and a Cloud of Dust" Howard.

Ajayi hurt his knee in 2018. Adams took over that year(4.3 ypc).  Howard was acquired before 2019 and averaged 4.4 ypc. 

[NOTW]

Howie usually starts out new coaching relationships excited and talking about collaboration, and getting the players the new coach wants.  He got Lane Johnson and Ertz for Chip, he got Wentz and addressed the O line for Doug.  He also picks players in the later rounds the coaches and scouts clamor for and he's done trying to make his splash.  We'll see how this draft works out but won't be surprised by more head scratchers in future drafts.

[EagleVA]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:28 PM, Rob331 said:

The problem with prior Eagles drafts hasn't been Howie, it's been the coaching staff.

So is it the coaching staff fault for neglecting to draft an obvious need this year, namely a CB? 

Please, don't mention 4.53 McPhearson, at that speed he won't be able to run with some of the slowest WRs in the league.

Howie isn't qualified to be a GM of a Pop Warner team let alone an NFL frnchise.

[EaglesAddict]

On 5/7/2021 at 3:41 PM, BayAreaLennie said:

Do not forget that the drafting process has been described as a "collaborative" process between the coaches and the front office types by Lurie, Howie, Joe Douglas and others repeatedly over the years.  The coaches tell the front office people what characteristics they are looking for and work with them to identify the types of players, and ultimate the specific players, they want.  So aside from player development issues, the coaches have a major opportunity to screw up the actual draft selections as well.

Exactly.  Howie, if anything, is the "guy who makes the pick"...but he is making these selections based on the input of others.  So yes, his name is on it and ultimately should be held accountable due to his title, but he is definitely NOT the guy making a decision to select a player solely based on his own belief.

The issue is the "collaborative process".  He gets input from the coaches, the scouts, the analytics team and the owner.  So basically, his job is to pick the player that whichever group makes the best case.  The Reagor and Hurts picks, for example...Reagor was the coaches' choice and Hurts was Lurie's choice.  

This past draft had the tone of Howie listening more to the scouting department...so we will see how they turn out.

[BayAreaLennie]

7 hours ago, EaglesAddict said:

Exactly.  Howie, if anything, is the "guy who makes the pick"...but he is making these selections based on the input of others.  So yes, his name is on it and ultimately should be held accountable due to his title, but he is definitely NOT the guy making a decision to select a player solely based on his own belief.

The issue is the "collaborative process".  He gets input from the coaches, the scouts, the analytics team and the owner.  So basically, his job is to pick the player that whichever group makes the best case.  The Reagor and Hurts picks, for example...Reagor was the coaches' choice and Hurts was Lurie's choice.  

This past draft had the tone of Howie listening more to the scouting department...so we will see how they turn out.

I agree with everything up until you said "Reagor was the coaches' choice and Hurts was Lurie's choice."  I have no idea what your source for that is, or how you can make that conclusion.

Again, it is a collaborative process, which includes feedback loops (i.e., scouts getting info from coaches about what traits they are looking for in players, and coaches getting info from scouts on how the players rank on those traits), and you end up with all picks being "Eagles picks" (though it is also fair to call them "Roseman picks" since he facilitates the process and is the ultimate decision-maker).  Even within any group, there is not going to be concensus - some scouts will grade a player different than other scouts, and some coaches will grade a player different than other coaches -- all that is fed into the process, with the goal to come out with a board and a decision-making process for picks and trades that results in getting the best players possible.

I imagine the final stage of the process is not long before the draft (the day before probably) getting all the stakeholders in a room (i.e.,  the coaches, scouts and relevant front office people - probably something like 25-30 people) and hashing out the final board and ratings.  Then as the draft unfolds, Roseman makes decisions, consulting with the stakeholders, based largely on the board -- i.e., "it is 5 picks away from our pick and player X is a grade level above everybody else on our board -- should we sit tight and hope he falls to us, or trade up to grab him?", or "it is our pick next and we have four players with similar grades at the top of our board -- it seems like we should trade down, how far is everyone comfortable trying to trade down?"

It would certainly be possible as part of the draft day process for different stakeholders to disagree on a decision, but I have no idea how any of us would know what those disagreements are and between which stakeholders.

[EaglesAddict]

15 hours ago, BayAreaLennie said:

I agree with everything up until you said "Reagor was the coaches' choice and Hurts was Lurie's choice."  I have no idea what your source for that is, or how you can make that conclusion.

Again, it is a collaborative process, which includes feedback loops (i.e., scouts getting info from coaches about what traits they are looking for in players, and coaches getting info from scouts on how the players rank on those traits), and you end up with all picks being "Eagles picks" (though it is also fair to call them "Roseman picks" since he facilitates the process and is the ultimate decision-maker).  Even within any group, there is not going to be concensus - some scouts will grade a player different than other scouts, and some coaches will grade a player different than other coaches -- all that is fed into the process, with the goal to come out with a board and a decision-making process for picks and trades that results in getting the best players possible.

I imagine the final stage of the process is not long before the draft (the day before probably) getting all the stakeholders in a room (i.e.,  the coaches, scouts and relevant front office people - probably something like 25-30 people) and hashing out the final board and ratings.  Then as the draft unfolds, Roseman makes decisions, consulting with the stakeholders, based largely on the board -- i.e., "it is 5 picks away from our pick and player X is a grade level above everybody else on our board -- should we sit tight and hope he falls to us, or trade up to grab him?", or "it is our pick next and we have four players with similar grades at the top of our board -- it seems like we should trade down, how far is everyone comfortable trying to trade down?"

It would certainly be possible as part of the draft day process for different stakeholders to disagree on a decision, but I have no idea how any of us would know what those disagreements are and between which stakeholders.

And here is a link about Lurie wanting Hurts...https://www.espn.com/blog/philadelphia-eagles/post/_/id/31237/eagles-owner-jeffrey-lurie-gone-too-far-quarterback-directives

And I agree that is probably basically how the process goes down.  The issue with Howie is, he's not strong enough in his own evaluations to "take charge" on a given pick.  

[EagleVA]

On 6/9/2021 at 4:57 PM, BayAreaLennie said:

Again, it is a collaborative process, which includes feedback loops (i.e., scouts getting info from coaches about what traits they are looking for in players, and coaches getting info from scouts on how the players rank on those traits),

If I were running a team, every draft I'd begin looking at the team's weaknesses, aka positions of need, only then would I start looking at players who play those positions,  that's how you build a football team.

How in the hell CB wasn't a priority is beyond me.