9 hours ago, ManuManu said:

Why would Doug even mention Taysom Hill and Lamar Jackson and say he talked to Marty about the Lamar role?

I think the Eagles probably can't (or won't) say out loud some of the other reasons for the Hurts pick.   So they are stuck making this Taysom Hill / Lamar Jackson argument the central theme of their public justification.    If you look at some of the justifications for this pick (that may all be true to some varying degree)

1. Wentz (unfortunately) has gotten hurt in multiple seasons and missed games (probably can't say that out loud)

2. The vast majority of QB picks in later rounds prove to be worthless (probably won't say that out loud)

3. Drafting a Backup QB (with potential starting ability) in Round 2 helps save big dollars on the salary cap over the next 4 seasons (probably won't say that out loud)

4. Jalen Hurts has a unique skillset to be used in some creative schemes with him and Wentz on the field at the same time (they can probably talk about this) 

 

4 minutes ago, obedt said:

It’s a discussion board. Shoot all kinds of 💩 on the blog

So your mind goes into the brain of Alshon, who I believe is still in a boot by the way and will be on PUP to start the year if he isn’t unloaded or cut.  And he’s now excited and wants to stay bc 1) JJAW sucks and 2) in his mind Hurts has a chance to threaten Wentz’s job. 

Riveting stuff bro. 

17 minutes ago, Rhinoddd50 said:

I actually don't understand how he fell that far.   When you look at his frame, his athleticism, his production, and the level he played at (SEC) that says Top 85 pick in almost every draft.   So I really have to wonder how bad his knee injury is.   Has the pandemic really prevented teams from getting accurate medical diagnosis?    I kind of find that hard to believe.

I hope the Eagles can get him back to full health.  If they do he could be their 3rd best OT easily.   And as you said, he definitely has starting potential (if healthy). 

I believe the last word on his knee status was... they found fluid in the knee at the Senior Bowl, which knocked him out there.  Not sure what happened at the Combine, but I'm guessing that they didn't see enough improvement by then to feel 100% confident, and then not being able to have his knee examined by their own doctors probably scared teams away.  I thought he was as high as a 3rd round pick, with clean medicals.  This pick might be a case of the Eagles taking advantage of the pandemic and the lack of information.  And let's say that he was a guy that they were debating when they grabbed Driscoll (both Auburn OTs), but decided to go Driscoll due to the medical red flag, then decided to trade back with Dallas and flipped those picks to still grab him and Toohill... not a bad return.  (I basically am focusing on those 2 as the true return of the trades, as the last two picks, in my mind, they'd be the players that the team wouldn't have selected had they not made those trades - although, maybe the reality is that Prince would have been selected instead of Quez Watkins, but given the extra picks, they could afford to double up there, and took Watkins due to the fact they assumed he'd be more likely to be drafted higher than Prince (given the medicals).  

48 minutes ago, Wentz_Era said:

Oh I know but it’s entirely likely this is a red shirt draft. With so much raw talent that needs coaching I’m hoping they’re up for the challenge! 

Agreed.  I wonder how much contact the coaches can have with these guys remotely when OTAs would have normally been... and work with Moorehead.  

 

And I wonder exactly how hungry Moorehead is as a coach... and I wonder what they could even do remotely.

16 minutes ago, greendestiny27 said:

He looks pretty good to me. Much better than Pumphrey already. I definitely don’t have the same vibe about him than I did with Pumphrey. 

He looks like a gamebreaker for sure.  I'm just not getting too excited about him just yet.  I remember how good Noelle Divine looked in his WVU film and couldn't do a thing in the NFL.  With that being said I can't wait to see him in camp and in the pre-season to see how he fairs against NFL teams.

33 minutes ago, obedt said:

I agree on point 2. I disagree that on 1 in most situations. Would much prefer to keep drafting day 3 qbs with the knowledge that most will not become even good backups without using a top 85 pick. 

Maybe.  

But let's play this out a little.   If you do keep throw draft picks away at Day 3 QB's every year, with almost zero chance of actually getting a player that will ever be good enough to step onto the field unless you are facing disaster...is that a good thing?   Is that a smart thing?   Or is that just a continuation of group think that might have worked in the 1990's but might be outdated now?

I'm just posing the questions.   Not saying we disagree.

But think about Rounds 4-7 a little.   Especially Rounds 5-7.   Strategically there is almost a zero chance of finding even a decent QB there, let alone a true stud.   Whereas in Rounds 4-7, or even Rounds 5-7 there are numerous examples of teams finding quality role players and starters at other positions in those rounds.   Even All Pros sometimes.

These are just thoughts, I am not saying they are 100% correct.

And I am not justifying the pick of Hurts at #53.   It's just that this pick has made me think about general lessons to be gleaned from the draft over time. 

44 minutes ago, Rhinoddd50 said:

Also now that I have had some time to think about it some more I realize that while Points #1 and #2 are totally factual and logical, it's really not something Howie could or would openly say to the media to explain or justify the pick.    Any honest and open discussion on Jalen Hurts would require revealing insights on your roster and cap strategy publicly.   There is nothing to be gained by doing that for the Eagles.

it would shut up the fans, but you'd lose any competitive advantage AND drive the price of QBs in draft capital even higher.

Practice squad increases from 10 players to 12 this year. We have a lot of raw, talented players that need development. The loser of Hightower/Watkins could be on the PS. The loser of Bradley/Olson could be on the PS. Those high-upside swings are attractive at the end of the regular season for other teams for stashing, but not at the beginning when teams use the PS to help their roster during the season. 

Drafting for volume while PS roster sizes goes up is smart. Unsurprisingly, the smarter teams did this (Vikings, Patriots, etc).

22 minutes ago, hputenis said:

So your mind goes into the brain of Alshon, who I believe is still in a boot by the way and will be on PUP to start the year if he isn’t unloaded or cut.  And he’s now excited and wants to stay bc 1) JJAW sucks and 2) in his mind Hurts has a chance to threaten Wentz’s job. 

Riveting stuff bro. 

Man, go back to bed, roll over, and climb out the other side.  

1 minute ago, MediterraneanDiet said:

Man, go back to bed, roll over, and climb out the other side.  

😂😂 Good call. 

5 hours ago, ManuManu said:

They wanted to draft a QB. Perhaps one was surprisingly sniped from them in round 2. 

Whoa. 

Think the Pats want Herbert or thought they could get Hurts later. Fact they traded down suggests no love for Love.

Would you rather have Winston for one year, where you are looking again the following year, quite possibly for two QBs (with a possibility of no college football this year) at what cost or Hurt for four years at rookie scale.  If, and that is a big if because I am not a huge fan of Hurts, he pans out to be a serviceable backup, then it makes Howie look pretty smart trusting his analytics. 

 

Technical question: is there a way to delete tweets from a post you are responding to.  Every time I try it just opens Twitter for me.  

Is Don coming to the forum? 

4 hours ago, BirdGang45 said:

i think Rambo WR from OKLA might end up being better then Lamb

I have been watching him and I do like the way he snatches the ball and his body control.

1 hour ago, obedt said:

I agree on point 2. I disagree that on 1 in most situations. Would much prefer to keep drafting day 3 qbs with the knowledge that most will not become even good backups without using a top 85 pick.
 

To rationalize this, I think the Eagles are in a unique situation, partly by their own doing, partly not. They handed out the Wentz contract, so that ties them up into the situation you outlined in point 2. Not of their doing - Wentz has gotten injured a lot and has missed significant time and in key situations consistently. And Luck just retired after a similar career arc. I don’t doubt Pederson and Reich had conversations about Luck’s retirement. That set of circumstances is unique from every other front office. 
 

edit- adding on, I think the Eagles felt they had to have a real contingency plan for 2 years from now. 

I think one other challenge with the concept of drafting backups in the top 100 is, how many of those guys are wired to accept that role?  Maybe this guy is but I’d guess far less than 50% would. 
 

that’s something built into a guy you pick in the 5th round. Even if he dreams of being a full time starter, he understands his path is proving he can be a decent backup first. 

Just now, purplefiggy said:

how many of those guys are wired to accept that role?

I think the hit rate of a second round QB is about 50% but that's coming in as the starter or at least with the intention that they take over as starter.

34 minutes ago, Rhinoddd50 said:

Maybe.  

But let's play this out a little.   If you do keep throw draft picks away at Day 3 QB's every year, with almost zero chance of actually getting a player that will ever be good enough to step onto the field unless you are facing disaster...is that a good thing?   Is that a smart thing?   Or is that just a continuation of group think that might have worked in the 1990's but might be outdated now?

I'm just posing the questions.   Not saying we disagree.

But think about Rounds 4-7 a little.   Especially Rounds 5-7.   Strategically there is almost a zero chance of finding even a decent QB there, let alone a true stud.   Whereas in Rounds 4-7, or even Rounds 5-7 there are numerous examples of teams finding quality role players and starters at other positions in those rounds.   Even All Pros sometimes.

These are just thoughts, I am not saying they are 100% correct.

And I am not justifying the pick of Hurts at #53.   It's just that this pick has made me think about general lessons to be gleaned from the draft over time. 

In the first part of your post, you reference little chance of  getting a player that will ever be good enough to step unto the field unless you are facing disaster- I’d argue there are guys found in rounds 4-7 that can still be developed into that. Sudfeld is one imho. Not a starter but a legit decent backup in most situations. 
 

I agree with a later statement that there is next to zero chance of finding a true stud that late, but being able to find a backup-level option, I don’t believe it to be an outdated notion. Thorson’s failure doesn’t make it an obsolete one.

 

You draft in the top 2 rounds if you project the QB as good enough to be a future starter. Hurts wasn’t drafted to only be a good backup. They see him as someone who can be developed into a starter, whether here or elsewhere.

7 hours ago, eaglesflyers#1 said:

Out of all of our WRs which are likely to play the slot?

I think Ward has the incumbent advantage as the traditional possession style of slot receiver. 
 

Reagor and Goodwin could get some snaps in the slot if we want to go with more speed on the field while still keeping a big target like Alshon or JJAW.

Ertz will get some action there as well.

I also wouldn’t rule out some looks for Killins in the slot if he makes the team. He has good hands for a RB. He would give you a deep threat, kind of a poor man’s Hamler, from the position and be very dangerous on jet sweeps.

I don’t think Hightower or Quez profile as slot receivers but I could be wrong.

The good news here is we have a ton of options, most of them having scary speed, so I don’t think we will have much trouble filling the role. It’s much harder to find good outside receivers.

Killins tape is a WOW!!! for a UDFA. Definitely better than Pumphrey, poster child of their college production philosophy.

Killins' size turned teams off, but look at the tape- hands and body control as a receiver and as a runner with moves, patience with blocks and directness into the hole between the tackles, and most importantly because of his size...

Turning speed into power for breaking tackles. Usually we only talk about speed to power for DEs, but it seems to apply here.

As soon as he hits the hole, he runs right by the LB trying to fill it LMAO

Wentz is a real competitor so this Hurts pick should fire him up.  Hoping he plays with a chip on his shoulder now and comes out firing like the Wentz of a few years ago.

2 minutes ago, TEW said:

I think Ward has the incumbent advantage as the traditional possession style of slot receiver. 
 

Reagor and Goodwin could get some snaps in the slot if we want to go with more speed on the field while still keeping a big target like Alshon or JJAW.

Ertz will get some action there as well.

I also wouldn’t rule out some looks for Killins in the slot if he makes the team. He has good hands for a RB. He would give you a deep threat, kind of a poor man’s Hamler, from the position and be very dangerous on jet sweeps.

I don’t think Hightower or Quez profile as slot receivers but I could be wrong.

The good news here is we have a ton of options, most of them having scary speed, so I don’t think we will have much trouble filling the role. It’s much harder to find good outside receivers.

I agree with all of this. Think if Killins can be developed it will be in a role other than a traditional RB. Wouldn’t count on it this year, but it would be fun to see. 
 

Agree on everything else that was said but that stuck out

4 hours ago, greend said:

Killins looks like what they expected Pumphreys to be.

Not sure I agree.  I think Scott is more what we expected from Pumphreys.  Pumphreys was a heck of a runner in college.  He destroyed my Cougars when they played  I think Pumphreys was supposed to be Sproles 2.0   I think Scott is.  

People (not directed at you) that think Killens is challenging Scott for his role need to take another look at Scott.  Only thing they have in common is height and both have speed.  Scott is a jacked 203 with a great center of gravity.  I think Killens is likely another of those really fast munchkin RBs that on a single touch falls down.  Doug may be hoping for that Oregon kid D’Anthony Thomas, Black Mamba.  He and AR had him in KC.  Has bounced around the NFL.  I think the Ravens had him last year.  Thomas is a bit taller and probably ten pounds heavier. 

1 minute ago, BigEFly said:

Not sure I agree.  I think Scott is more what we expected from Pumphreys.  Pumphreys was a heck of a runner in college.  He destroyed my Cougars when they played  I think Pumphreys was supposed to be Sproles 2.0   I think Scott is.  

People (not directed at you) that think Killens is challenging Scott for his role need to take another look at Scott.  Only thing they have in common is height and both have speed.  Scott is a jacked 203 with a great center of gravity.  I think Killens is likely another of those really fast munchkin RBs that on a single touch falls down.  Doug may be hoping for that Oregon kid D’Anthony Thomas, Black Mamba.  He and AR had him in KC.  Has bounced around the NFL.  I think the Ravens had him last year.  Thomas is a bit taller and probably ten pounds heavier. 

We have a lead back (Sanders).

We have a power back (Warren or Holyfied)

We have a pass catching back (Scott or Killins)

That is how they are competing. Might each be a little different when you delve in to specifics, but both are competing for the same role. 

We are in position to just bring waves of speed to throw at the defense.

Reagor is going to be our Tyreek.

One of Hightower and Watkins is going to be our McLaurin.

Imagine lining up 4 wide with Jackson, Reagor, Watkins and Hightower.  They all run deep and we slip Sanders out of the backfield.

If we can just get the defense to respect the deep ball, then the middle opens up for Ertz, Goedert and Sanders to exploit linebackers at will.

3 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Not sure I agree.  I think Scott is more what we expected from Pumphreys.  Pumphreys was a heck of a runner in college.  He destroyed my Cougars when they played  I think Pumphreys was supposed to be Sproles 2.0   I think Scott is.  

People (not directed at you) that think Killens is challenging Scott for his role need to take another look at Scott.  Only thing they have in common is height and both have speed.  Scott is a jacked 203 with a great center of gravity.  I think Killens is likely another of those really fast munchkin RBs that on a single touch falls down.  Doug may be hoping for that Oregon kid D’Anthony Thomas, Black Mamba.  He and AR had him in KC.  Has bounced around the NFL.  I think the Ravens had him last year.  Thomas is a bit taller and probably ten pounds heavier. 

Agreed. Scott is a true RB. He might be undersized by NFL starter size standards, but he is built to take the punishment from a rotational role in the backfield.

Killins is a weapon more than a pure RB. He’s the kind of guy a coach needs to be creative with. Giving him 10-15 carries out of the backfield per game will get him hurt. 

You want Killins getting 2 or 3 carries out of the backfield, getting 2 or 3 catches out of the backfield, a carry on a jet sweep, and 1 or 2 catches as a slot receiver. He’s not someone I think can handle high volume. He’s an efficiency, big play guy. You get him some returns on special teams plus 6-8 creative touches on offense and you hope to get a couple big plays from that workload.

8 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

We have a lead back (Sanders).

We have a power back (Warren or Holyfied)

We have a pass catching back (Scott or Killins)

That is how they are competing. Might each be a little different when you delve in to specifics, but both are competing for the same role. 

Not sure I agree it’s a direct competition between Scott and Killins. Scott is a true RB for the rotation. If you have an injury, he can shoulder an increased work load.

Killins is more of a gadget guy. If, God forbid. Sanders missed extended time, Killins should not be expected to pick up much of the slack.