15 minutes ago, austinfan said:

JJaw ran a 4.49 at 225 lbs or so.

The problem with the Combine is players started training for it, and putting up less meaningful numbers. So you have guys putting up great numbers in shorts in a straight line out of a sprinter's stance, but who take a half second to get up to speed out of a vertical stance, etc. So they should run the 40 in pads from a football stance.

Since we have the technology to note many aspects of play right off film in a form that allows comparisons, the value of Combine tests is reduced.

And the 40 is probably the least useful test, but the other tests have reduced value b/c people train for them, especially the agility drills. 

At this point, I'd rather find some AI software that can measure velocity running specific routes that can measure how much a WR slows in and out of standard cuts.

And it depends, jumps matter more for linemen as a measure of leg explosion, but whether a WR jumps 38" or 42" is less important than whether he can high point the ball.

1. Pro Day times are GARBAGE. He didn't run at the combine because he knew he'd suck. That time is useless. 

2. Everything is equal for everyone. Everyone has to start the same exact way. Minor advantage to those who are better through years of experience at starting from that position. But guess what? Everyone is getting trained for it! Everyone has lots of time to work on their start! It's the same for everyone. 

3. The 40 relative to one's size and position has one of the strongest correlations to measureable NFL success.. Don't get it twisted; being bigger and faster makes you more likely to be good at a game that requires a lot of size and speed.

4. 40 times are just one measure of movement skills. It's not the end all be all... But this whole "let's discredit the 40" is getting out of hand

5. I don't disagree at all with your last point. 40 times and nfl success have the strongest correlation at offensive tackle and defensive end. WRs have much more skill components to it at that position compared to just the raw athleticism needed along the offensive and defensive lines. That said, the Ravens and Chiefs are two of the fastest teams in the NFL and are unstoppable on offense. We were the slowest. We need speed and lots of it

8 hours ago, UK Eagle said:

My present employer, big US tech company, had a big CSR/equality department 2 years ago,  but as they've screwed down on costs after a management change, that area has very much disappeared into thin air and is now an addition to a role, rather than the sole role+department.  I cant say I've noticed any difference in my day to day job, just less group emails to read.

And yeah, they offshored like crazy in the past 18 months...

In the Philippines where I reside 2 of the largest employment opportunities and better paid are call centers and online data entry work. This is because they speak English better and more than other 3rd world countries. I’m sure India is the same. Call center agent makes about $1.50 per hour and with some benefits ( but nothing compared to US and for sure Europe ), usually have to work night shifts. Data entry ( copy/paste, simple spreadsheets ) $3-4 per hour but no benefits and not so many hours. Most of these people work for US and Canadian businesses maybe some other English speaking countries like Britain, Australia and such but not sure. These are highly sought after jobs so good for the Philippines but probably bad for US and Canadian workers. Globalization, raising the standards of living where there is a drought of gainful employment. As you can guess the labor laws are virtually nil and even then not strictly enforced which is all brought about when the demand overruns the supply

 

8 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I think Jones is still the guy that he looked like pre-draft... but the question is between his ears and his hamstrings.   If he can clear his head, and has his legs in shape... I think he can really step up and show why he was so highly rated before his pre-draft injury.  Of course, he could just as easily relapse into a head case.

 

If he becomes the guy he was at Washington, this defensive backfield can be really strong.  Add Everson Griffin to a 1 or 2 year Chris Long type deal, and this pass defense might be special.

He played MUCH better at the end of last year.  Small sample of just a few games but it did look like he was turning a corner.  We'll see this year.

5 hours ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

I remember there being a horrible misspelling on one of those signs at the Vet. YOUR instead of YOU'RE...or THERE instead of THEIR. One of those common, stupid mistakes. I'm figuring, you had a whole week to make this sign, it took a lot of time to make, the least you could do is to make sure you spell the words correctly. 

The 2001 home game against the Giants, his sign read, ‘’Jim, your going home, guaranteed.’’

 

For the people not watching the Bulls documentary... 

If you’re having a bad year... just know that in 1984, Adidas turned down Michael Jordan. 

With RFID tracking, teams can figure out how fast a player truly is. So while Reagor is not a consistent 4.30 guy (even on tape), he's able to hit that top gear if it all breaks right.

32 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

 

That’s wrong, but funny. 

8 hours ago, austinfan said:

JJaw ran a 4.49 at 225 lbs or so.

The problem with the Combine is players started training for it, and putting up less meaningful numbers. So you have guys putting up great numbers in shorts in a straight line out of a sprinter's stance, but who take a half second to get up to speed out of a vertical stance, etc. So they should run the 40 in pads from a football stance.

Since we have the technology to note many aspects of play right off film in a form that allows comparisons, the value of Combine tests is reduced.

And the 40 is probably the least useful test, but the other tests have reduced value b/c people train for them, especially the agility drills. 

At this point, I'd rather find some AI software that can measure velocity running specific routes that can measure how much a WR slows in and out of standard cuts.

And it depends, jumps matter more for linemen as a measure of leg explosion, but whether a WR jumps 38" or 42" is less important than whether he can high point the ball.

I find the GPS tracking really interesting. While I don’t particularly care about max MPH, I would love to know the average mph for certain stretches, say 20-30 yards or 20-40 yards, etc. 

The 10-yard split is a great tool, I think too.  

10 hours ago, mattmcginley7 said:

Many great sprinters have higher BMI's relative to what you would think. Losing weight does not mean you'll be faster. Most great sprinters can squat near triple their bodyweight. The muscle and strength associated with the gains trumps losing weight

True but does muscle and strength gains trump the lost speed/ quickness?

Im not saying increased muscle mass leads to less speed but it did with reagor and with hightower as well.

13 minutes ago, RLC said:

With RFID tracking, teams can figure out how fast a player truly is. So while Reagor is not a consistent 4.30 guy (even on tape), he's able to hit that top gear if it all breaks right.

 

8 hours ago, The guy in France said:

Could Mailata 1 of the 2 if it came to that fearing a team stealing them off the PS. No Ward unless 1 is a returner. If Alshon was good to go towards the middle of the season I think he has to play with the sal cap hit plus his talent

Not sure. I assume eagles are going to keep 6 WR though theyve gone into games with just 3 so... and theyve usually kept 9-10 OL

I dont think jeffrey plays this year, if he does he starts the year on PUP

Desean is a lock Reagor as a 1st is of course a lock then id guess JJaW is a lock as well i cant see them giving up on a 2nd round after 1 season. Ward would be 3 for me unless he falls on his face but i dont see it. Then its hightower watkins and goodwin in that order to me because of goodwins age and injury history.

So id say if they keep 6 its desean reagor JJAW ward hightower watkins. If 5 then they risk watkins on the PS.

At tackle i cant see them risking Mailata on the PS, they value OT more than WR and kept Mailata on roster last 2 years.

Then there is Prince, Driscoll, pryor herbig, and, opeta. I imagine Opeta and Herbig would be safe on the PS but who knows.

Good players always get cut and i think every fan over values their cut players or PS players as a lot of those players arent re signed or signed off PS.

Im not sure how the extended PS works though either.

Well at least we're more of a QB factory than Denver...wow

 

5 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

Well at least we're more of a QB factory than Denver...wow

 

It's phrased in a way to not include John Elway, who played 100% of his career in Denver.

11 hours ago, mattmcginley7 said:

Sprinting is all about increasing stride length and/or stride frequency. When you have an insane strength to size ratio, you're increasing the stride length 

Yes and im not talking track speed im talking football speed.

Football speed as we all know is more than running in a straight line on a rubber track while wearing a singlet.

I think reagors and hightowers gained muscle mass or weight had negative impact on their football speed.

I think both will be faster football players at lighter weights.

Hightower played at around 175 lbs in college the heavier weight clearly affected his 40 time at the combine. I imagine hell slim down to be a faster quicker football player and same goes for reagor. The added weight didnt do him any favors and slimmed down for his pro day he looked faster and quicker. I imagine hes not going to play football at 207. 

6 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

He played MUCH better at the end of last year.  Small sample of just a few games but it did look like he was turning a corner.  We'll see this year.

And yet he was benched in the playoff game, which was kind of telling, I think. With the chips on the line, they preferred he not be on the field. That's kind of unsettling for me, who has been a Jones supporter the entire time.

5 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

The 2001 home game against the Giants, his sign read, ‘’Jim, your going home, guaranteed.’’

What is that in reference too? Who is Jim?

10 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nah, its not a terrible take, but your takeaway from it was pretty poor.   Game tape speed matters.  How fast a guy is in shorts is irrelevant.   What matters is how that speed translates to the field.  

You built a nice straw man there though.  I'm not pushing for drafting 'slow' WRs, but I'm going to watch the games and see that speed on the field.  With technology today, you can learn true speed from the game film, the 40 is pretty worthless now.  Reagor, in real data, timed at a higher speed in a game than anyone in the NFL last year.  But his 40 time was 'disappointing'.   Big deal.  If you want speed, it's easy to find speed without relying on the Combined 40 time.  The 40 is a relic, dating back to when game film and measurement metrics weren't readily available.  But now, the measurements are easier, more relevant and more accurate than a silly track exercise in shorts.  This isn't high school or pee-wee, this is the NFL and the methods to properly measure speed is easily accessible... in games and in real situations, in pads, etc. 

Incidentally, I believe Rice was 4.6 at the Combine, but I don't remember him ever being caught from behind. 

Yup this. Emmitt smith Jerry rice brian westbrook all 4.6, 4.5 guys but how often those guys get caught from behind.

Track speed in the nfl is useful but not the end all be all.

These numbers are just glimpses.  No one will ever be proven right or wrong here.  It's silly when Afan uses strong language like ignore.  Afan himself has often used 40 times to rationalize and support certain additions.

It's information.  It can mislead and it can shed light depending on how you use it.  If a player is an absolute burner on tape and runs a 4.5, no, you don't take them off a draft board.  But you do question if their speed translates.  Or maybe they did just have a bad day.  

Metrics on top speed and 10 yard split in pads are nice too...but they can be equally misleading.  A player's usage and route tree in an offense impacts how many teams you even see them open it up to top speed, versus someone who is running go routes every play.  You've got guys running on every NCAA surface under the sun.  Useful information, yes, but it can mislead too.

2 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Yup this. Emmitt smith Jerry rice brian westbrook all 4.6, 4.5 guys but how often those guys get caught from behind.

Track speed in the nfl is useful but not the end all be all.

Westbrook is definitely not a 4.6 in pads, but when he got into the open field for a 40 yard sprint, you could see in the last 10 or so yards why his 40 was unspectacular.  Did it matter?  Not in the slightest.

And despite that poor 40, he still was better than any RB since Marshall Faulk and being a true WR in certain packages.  

11 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Westbrook is definitely not a 4.6 in pads, but when he got into the open field for a 40 yard sprint, you could see in the last 10 or so yards why his 40 was unspectacular.  Did it matter?  Not in the slightest.

And despite that poor 40, he still was better than any RB since Marshall Faulk and being a true WR in certain packages.  

Yup westbrook ran a 4.5 at the combine and emmitt smith a 4.6.

Neither of those 40 times held them back.

For westbrook his ability to hit full speed stop on a dime and reach full speed at an instant made him dangerous.

Emmitt smith meanwhile was able to maintain his speed through contact, he had great contact balance.

Neither were super fast guys like say herschel walker who had great track speed(4.35)  he was a more build up speed and not speed that he could stop or start like westbrook.

In a track meet herscel walker blows by both westbrook and smith but in football its a different story.

35 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

What is that in reference too? Who is Jim?

Jim Fassel who a year earlier made a mid season guarantee the Giants were going to the playoffs after a bad loss to Detroit I believe. He made good on that though that was the year they got crushed in the Super Bowl by the Ravens. 

 

 

"Starting caliber QB"

3 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

 

the greatest as far as I'm concerned.  It will be a shame if/when Belichick cheats his way past Shula's wins record.