47 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

As far as I know, it hasn't passed yet.  So, no coaches can 'use' it yet.

 

 

I get why they changed the OT rule, but frankly, it's unnecessary.  If a coach has the cajones to do this in OT, and take the chance of putting your opponent in to easy FG position to start if you can't convert on 4th and 15, then so be it.  The defense will need to hold for one down, then your offense goes to work already in scoring position, and with the current rule remaining that the first TD wins immediately, it would be quite the gamble by the coach calling for the attempt.  The stats for teams scoring TDs that start inside their opponent's territory is striking compared to the teams needing to go the length of the field.   

 

My biggest concern is the ticky tack 5 yard defensive holding call being an automatic first down.  The officials would need to be coached to make that call only to be made if a player is egregiously affected.  If they want to call it... give the 5 yards, but not the automatic conversion.  Similarly for DPI... if the infraction is beyond the first down marker, then sure, give them the conversion (again, only on egregious infractions), but if the infraction is short of the sticks, then the ball should be respotted and the offense should be forced to convert the new down... 4th and 10, 4th and 3, whatever.   The issue for me is the officiating of this down, not the coaches taking calculated risks.  

I know it hasn't passed.  It looks like it may but we will see.  I do think penalties are problematic but they're problematic at other times in games. I don't think you change the standard but I hope they don't make ticky tack calls.  The same could be said for a holding call on the o-line.  I mean too often those calls seem just as subjective.

Just now, NCiggles said:

I know it hasn't passed.  It looks like it may but we will see.  I do think penalties are problematic but they're problematic at other times in games. I don't think you change the standard but I hope they don't make ticky tack calls.  The same could be said for a holding call on the o-line.  I mean too often those calls seem just as subjective.

Agreed, and I'm against the ticky tack calls at those calls... and very much against the 3rd and 15 or 3rd and whatever becoming a first down with the 5 yard Def holding call.  Just give the 5 yards and replay the down.  Or make it 10 yards, like offensive holding... and replay the down.  No need for it to be an automatic first.  

But, unlike most calls at other times in games, calling ticky tack things on this type of scenario, it means an extra possession for one team.  That can dramatically shift the outcome of the game.  

When you enter the NFL in the shadow of one of the league’s best tight ends, it’s easy to be somewhat overlooked. That is the case with Goedert, who was immediately thrust into a role as TE2 despite being taken in the second round out of South Dakota State. The Eagles have run a heavy dose of two tight end sets to get both him and Zach Ertz on the field, and it’s pretty clear from those snaps that Goedert is a top-end TE in the NFL.

Since 2018, Goedert actually ranks fifth among qualifying tight ends in overall grade, ahead of Ertz. A big reason — outside of the obvious mismatch threats he poses as a receiver — is his elite play as a blocker for the position. Goedert’s 81.4 run-blocking gradesits sandwiched between Maxx Williams and George Kittle for second at the position over that same span. He is a complete tight end who would be a high-level primary option on most rosters in the NFL. 

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I don't have the Athletic and don't plan to subscribe.  I appreciate you sharing your takeaways.

But, to rebutt this a little.  In 2017, Carson had the deep threat piece with Torrey Smith... and Nelson Agholor actually played as a legitimate NFL WR.  He also had the benefit of a reliable running game, that teams had to respect.  They could hit you with Blount, Ajayi, and even Clement.  

In 2018, the deep threat went out in Week 1, never to return.  Agholor regressed back to being disappointing, not nearly as bad as in 2019 though.  And the leading rusher in 2018 was Josh Adams, as they lost Sproles (again), Ajayi (not surprisngly, given his issues coming to the NFL), and even Clement.  As a result, he was forced to rely on his TEs much more, and the team moved towards a 12 personnel which will impact YPA.  

In 2019, the deep threat once again went out in Week 1.  Agholor regressed even further, and they lost all semblance of a legitimate WR corps by about week 3.  Each week from that point on was a patch work of injured Alshon, inept Agholor, confused JJAW or completely unnecessary Mack Hollins.  Then they moved to bring back an injured Jordan Matthews, and then to bring in not one, not two but THREE different practice squad WRs to finish out the season, and won 4 straight with that cast of characters at WR.  One week they even had 40 year old Josh McCown running routes in practice due to the dearth of healthy talent at the WR position... Yet, they won 9 games, and made the playoffs.

These stats you are quoting are wonderful... except that they aren't really meaningful, as they don't take into account the constantly changing cast of characters around Wentz.  The passing game is about familiarity and knowing where the receiver is supposed to be, and the receiver actually getting there.  Wentz didn't have that, and finished the season with guys that he likely rarely worked with during the offseason, as they were so far down the depth chart.  

I'm not saying that Wentz is beyond criticism, but this criticism is fairly stacked against him.  Of course his YPA will be lower, when he doesn't have any speed options.  Of course, his accuracy and timing will suffer as Desean goes out, Alshon gets dinged and then goes out.  JJAW runs into his teammates.  Hollins cares more about ST than WR.  And then they bring in Jordan Matthews, Shelton Gibson, Greg Ward, Robert Davis and Deontay Burnett.    And as you point out, he did do well out of the pocket, because that's where the pure athleticism could take over and he wasn't bound to timing and the receivers being in the exact spot they are supposed to be at the exact right moment.  

Wentz missed a number of throws last year, missed some reads, and missed some opportunities.  That said, given the changing cast around him, the fact that he did take chicken s---- and turned it into chicken salad should be lauded.  I'd be interested much more in his mechanics being broken down than his stats.  Stats are almost always colored by the supporting cast.   

Don’t disagree.  I said that he didn’t have squat for WRs. Also a concern from that article was the running game out of 11 personnel was 29th. The run blocking was 14th but the pass blocking was 19th. I question the validity of the scoring system used on blocking but even NFL.com had similar rankings on blocking efficiency.  According to the article, Dillard was worst in missed blocks but there was that half game at RT.  Interestingly, while most Eagles OL have played multiple positions, Dillard really hasn’t.  He has been a LT.  

28 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

As far as I know, it hasn't passed yet.  So, no coaches can 'use' it yet.

 

 

I get why they changed the OT rule, but frankly, it's unnecessary.  If a coach has the cajones to do this in OT, and take the chance of putting your opponent in to easy FG position to start if you can't convert on 4th and 15, then so be it.  The defense will need to hold for one down, then your offense goes to work already in scoring position, and with the current rule remaining that the first TD wins immediately, it would be quite the gamble by the coach calling for the attempt.  The stats for teams scoring TDs that start inside their opponent's territory is striking compared to the teams needing to go the length of the field.   

 

My biggest concern is the ticky tack 5 yard defensive holding call being an automatic first down.  The officials would need to be coached to make that call only to be made if a player is egregiously affected.  If they want to call it... give the 5 yards, but not the automatic conversion.  Similarly for DPI... if the infraction is beyond the first down marker, then sure, give them the conversion (again, only on egregious infractions), but if the infraction is short of the sticks, then the ball should be respotted and the offense should be forced to convert the new down... 4th and 10, 4th and 3, whatever.   The issue for me is the officiating of this down, not the coaches taking calculated risks.  

I think the biggest thing they are going for is the scenario if Team A kicks a FG in OT, then uses the new onsides kick rule and succeeds, the game ends without the Team B ever touching the ball. Without any data like success % they want to eliminate the walk off win as much as they can. 

1 hour ago, greend said:

Am I confused by the untimed down part?

Perhaps. The game clock wouldn’t run, but the play clock would. 

3 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Don’t disagree.  I said that he didn’t have squat for WRs. Also a concern from that article was the running game out of 11 personnel was 29th. The run blocking was 14th but the pass blocking was 19th. I question the validity of the scoring system used on blocking but even NFL.com had similar rankings on blocking efficiency.  According to the article, Dillard was worst in missed blocks but there was that half game at RT.  Interestingly, while most Eagles OL have played multiple positions, Dillard really hasn’t.  He has been a LT.  

I would like to see Dillard’s stats or grades at LT just to see how much his disastrous half at RT affected it. 

1 hour ago, Mike030270 said:

A lot of you don't venture out of the blog

 

 

Would’ve been better if the launch went off at 03:28 just to troll the falcons since it’s falcon 9

32 minutes ago, The Holy Vagabond said:

If you could do the 4th and 15 to start overtime.....

 

what would be the point of the coin toss? 

Well, if you won the coin toss you wouldn't do it and if you lost you would gamble on a 4th and 15 for one play deep on your side of the field.

Note to self: Do not all-out blitz Lamar Jackson...

49 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Carson was 1st in QBR in 2017, 12th in 2018, 11th in 2019.  Dropping in net yards per attempt from 6 to 12 to 16th.  23rd in completion above expectation.  14th in percentage of throws on target. 25th in EPA against Cover 1 and 14th against Cover 3 yet only 16% of his throws were in tight windows. 24th in EPA on drop back on deep passes.  In the pocket 24th. Out of the pocket, which they seemed to realize later in the season, 4th.  It wasn’t just the receivers last year, Carson was a bit off.  Sheil had some interesting info in the article. 

meh. let's get him some real receivers and see what happens

11 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I would like to see Dillard’s stats or grades at LT just to see how much his disastrous half at RT affected it. 

Ditto.  From the article:

Up front, the Eagles are talented but old. They ranked 19th in ESPN’s pass-block win rate metric, and Wentz was hit or sacked on 20.1 percent of his pass plays, which also ranked 19th. Overall, Wentz got rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds on 40.5 percent of his dropbacks, which ranked just above league average. The Eagles will return (at least) four of five starters on the offensive line, and it could be all five if they determine Dillard (a 2019 first-round pick) is not ready and bring Peters back. Dillard started four games and played 337 snaps as a rookie. He had exclusively played left tackle in high school and college, but the Eagles tried him at right tackle for a game, and it was a disaster as he got benched at halftime. The rest of his snaps were at left tackle. He looked the part athletically but struggled with bull rushes and other power moves.

Overall, Sports Info Solutions had Dillard down for a blown block on 11.1 percent of his passing snaps. That ranked last out of the 92 offensive tackles who played at least 100 snaps. Peters, 38, showed signs of declining, but his rate of blown blocks on passing plays was 2.9 percent, which ranked 32nd. Whether the Eagles bring Peters back or go with Dillard, left tackle is going to be a question.

8 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I would like to see Dillard’s stats or grades at LT just to see how much his disastrous half at RT affected it. 

I thought it was super interesting when mosher on their last podcast talked about dillard with 4-5 scouts around the league. We had the same discussion on here before the draft about where he’d be compared to this year’s class of OT. He said they all told him outside of the top 3-4. It was the same topic we all had and went into on here. 

that said He also said dillard he put on weight according to his sources and is up 10-15 pounds. So that’s definitely good cause he needed too. 

dont Know if you read the article on the athletic (was a while ago) about his HS and college upbringing in the game. It had some rather curious things to say in it. 

Just now, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I thought it was super interesting when mosher on their last podcast talked about dillard with 4-5 scouts around the league. We had the same discussion on here before the draft about where he’d be compared to this year’s class of OT. He said they all told him outside of the top 3-4. It was the same topic we all had and went into on here. 

that said He also said dillard he put on weight according to his sources and is up 10-15 pounds. So that’s definitely good cause he needed too. 

dont Know if you read the article on the athletic (was a while ago) about his HS and college upbringing in the game. It had some rather curious things to say in it. 

I'm not even sure he would be a first rounder if he was in this draft. He probably falls into the 2nd is my guess. 

20 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

I think the biggest thing they are going for is the scenario if Team A kicks a FG in OT, then uses the new onsides kick rule and succeeds, the game ends without the Team B ever touching the ball. Without any data like success % they want to eliminate the walk off win as much as they can. 

Don't care.   That means their defense failed twice.  Once to not stop them from scoring a FG... then again not stopping them from converting on the 4th and 15.  

 

But, hey, let's let it play out... the game doesn't end if the first team in your scenario scores a FG and then converts.  Because the OT rule does say that the game doesn't end on a FG, without both teams possessing the ball... so, the defense can still get a stop and get the ball back on a punt.  OR... let them score another FG, and still not end the game!  

5 minutes ago, greend said:

meh. let's get him some real receivers and see what happens

He has two of the best TEs in football and a RB that came close to ROY In part because of his pass catching.  I think we all pretty much felt like the O was a bit flawed last year.  I think Scagnarello will scheme some motion for Carson.  I think we have to see more out of the WRs than last year.  Lane had a down year from being banged up and it is time to move on from JP at LT.  One hopes in this isolation offseason that Dillard is working on strengthening as bull rushes were a challenge for him.  Hopefully he picked up some punch technique from Peters, who I really hope comes to camp as a coach not a player.  That said, Carson has to get In sync with his WRs.  We can’t see another season of starting slow every game. If I were Press and Doug, I would make every Eagles player read that article and ask themselves how they can personally get better and that starts with Carson.  

17 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

I'm not even sure he would be a first rounder if he was in this draft. He probably falls into the 2nd is my guess. 

It’s definitely possible still think he goes first but i don’t think it’s before the top 4. I think he had elite footwork and was an elite pass protector in college. But he didn’t have the run blocking aspect of the game at Wazzu which i think is part of the reason he fell last year besides a lot of teams believing he needed more muscle and i think there were some "issues” some teams had (like crying in the end zone in college and not necessarily loving playing but more of wanting to play according to the kapadia athletic article https://theathletic.com/1032468/2019/06/19/football-chose-him-how-andre-dillard-went-from-awkward-8th-grader-to-eagles-first-round-pick/?source=user_shared_article). I suggest Everyone read the article it’s pretty good and gives good insight into dillard even though it’s from last year.  

10 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Don't care.   That means their defense failed twice.  Once to not stop them from scoring a FG... then again not stopping them from converting on the 4th and 15.  

 

But, hey, let's let it play out... the game doesn't end if the first team in your scenario scores a FG and then converts.  Because the OT rule does say that the game doesn't end on a FG, without both teams possessing the ball... so, the defense can still get a stop and get the ball back on a punt.  OR... let them score another FG, and still not end the game!  

I'm not saying I agree, just think that's the mentality. And i think the game would end if they convert the onside kick. The rule says "each team must have an opportunity to possess the football" not that each team must touch the football. The 4th and 15 is replacing the kickoff which is Teams B's opportunity to possess the football. So if Team B fails, both teams had the opportunity and one team is winning, which means all criteria is met. 

Currently, a team can still go for a walk-off win by opening OT with an onsides kick, recovering and kicking a field goal. No one ever does because it's bat ish insane, but it could happen. I guess question is if its the same result when the same actions happen but out of order. 

I dunno

15 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

I'm not even sure he would be a first rounder if he was in this draft. He probably falls into the 2nd is my guess. 

If Austin Jackson can go in the top 20, so would Dillard IMO. 

16 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Agreed, and I'm against the ticky tack calls at those calls... and very much against the 3rd and 15 or 3rd and whatever becoming a first down with the 5 yard Def holding call.  Just give the 5 yards and replay the down.  Or make it 10 yards, like offensive holding... and replay the down.  No need for it to be an automatic first.  

But, unlike most calls at other times in games, calling ticky tack things on this type of scenario, it means an extra possession for one team.  That can dramatically shift the outcome of the game.  

I've been pointing out the Torrey Smith issue since about mid season last year saying the biggest difference between 2017 and the last 2 campaigns is the absence of that element but you laid it out much better that I ever did - thank you.

 

No one likes ticky tack calls but it's better than the alternative. Refereeing is hard enough without asking them to assess the egregiousness - it's why facemask is now simply a 15 yard penalty. Too often players would practically have their head ripped off only to have a 2nd insult of it being called a 5 yard penalty (or not at all, yikes). OR a player barely passes his fingers over the facemask and gets hit with a 15 yard penalty. I prefer the new rule - take the guess work away from the Ref and if a player is getting hit for 15 yards on what would have been 5 - well you shouldn't grab the face mask.

On defensive holding - it has to be an automatic first down - and if it happens more than 5 yards down field than it should be a spot penalty and a first down. Here's why ... 

If it's only the yardage than every time a DB gets beat clean at the LOS without safety help he's going to reach out and hold (tackle the receiver if he can/ has to) - this is preferable to giving up a big play or TD. Again I don't want Refs to assess how bad the hold was. Holding IMO is holding - players shouldn't do it and the penalty should be a deterrent. THE ONLY exception I would consider is holding away from the play where the QB didn't see it. If it technically didn't have a bearing on the outcome than it should be just 5 yards with those yards determining down and distance. 

I'm not 100% in favor of "away from the play" either. Imagine 3rd and 8 from your own 30. WR A on the left running a skinny post - the QB is trying to look off the safety - so only in his peripheral does he see the DB pull down WR A who had a clean release and was about to run by. The QB dumps off to his "HOT" RB on the right - the hold was "away" from the play and the QB never really looked in that direction so the ref can't be sure the QB saw it. It's now 3rd and 3 instead of a TD - it's gotta be 1st and 10 for there to be any deterrent - players shouldn't hold and when they do they need to suffer consequences  - not be rewarded.

Dillard was a much better prospect than first-round pick Isaiah Wilson as well, although Tennessee prefers more power than finesse at OT.

Andre Dillard > Austin Jackson and Isaiah Wilson as prospects. It's not particularly close.

Last year, Tytus Howard and Kaleb McGary went in RD1. Bad tackles get pushed up. 

21 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Ditto.  From the article:

Up front, the Eagles are talented but old. They ranked 19th in ESPN’s pass-block win rate metric, and Wentz was hit or sacked on 20.1 percent of his pass plays, which also ranked 19th. Overall, Wentz got rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds on 40.5 percent of his dropbacks, which ranked just above league average. The Eagles will return (at least) four of five starters on the offensive line, and it could be all five if they determine Dillard (a 2019 first-round pick) is not ready and bring Peters back. Dillard started four games and played 337 snaps as a rookie. He had exclusively played left tackle in high school and college, but the Eagles tried him at right tackle for a game, and it was a disaster as he got benched at halftime. The rest of his snaps were at left tackle. He looked the part athletically but struggled with bull rushes and other power moves.

Overall, Sports Info Solutions had Dillard down for a blown block on 11.1 percent of his passing snaps. That ranked last out of the 92 offensive tackles who played at least 100 snaps. Peters, 38, showed signs of declining, but his rate of blown blocks on passing plays was 2.9 percent, which ranked 32nd. Whether the Eagles bring Peters back or go with Dillard, left tackle is going to be a question.

Are we overrating the Eagles O-line?  19th seems low for how much praise they get.  Dillard needs to come back stronger and ready to own that LT position. 

6 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

If Austin Jackson can go in the top 20, so would Dillard IMO. 

True. I guess it could go either way. I just question if the second best tackle lasts all the way to 22 in his draft, how does he fair when there is 3-4 ahead, and some others around him in the next. But I guess there are too many variable factors to compare it that way.