I'm all for protesting it's what made this country what it is....but be respectful, dont destroy private  property.....that said, if law enforcement keeps over stepping their boundaries,  bull rush them ,they are out numbered by the thousands. 

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

We need to define rioters and protesters as I think if I was drawing a Vin diagram, there was some overlap. (The looters are criminals, period, to me.). Some of the arson was part of the group protesting.  Some of the spray painting was part of the group protesting.  Some of the group throwing things at the police were protesters. They may be "rioters” too.  I think that is factual based on my eye view of videos. I am trying not to generalize but merely state, I think there is some overlap.

I concur, I was generalizing. The protesters and the "serious" criminal activity are separate but yes there is some overlap.

1 hour ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

May see them do what Belichick has done.  Put Slay on their #2 and then double their #1.

And play Cover 1, which he does much more than Schwartz 

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

I actually see this as a sign of progress. If Brees is sincere, and I believe he is, then this is one more person, a person with some influence, who has increased understanding of the dynamics and issues here. I'm not asking him to do the Chris Long thing of putting his arm on Jenkins' shoulder, but I do think his thought process has been influenced for the better and the more tolerant. That's a good thing and I wouldn't be surprised if the Saints didn't benefit from all of this. Frank talk in the locker room about important stuff is a very good thing. My days in such venue were during the Vietnam War and we had a lot of those conversations. Sometimes very heated and we didn't always agree, but we worked it out, at least to the level of being able to function. Our guys were dying back then in large numbers (disproportionately black) for no good reason, not just being disrespected and being murdered in smaller numbers. Difference was volume. Worth mentioning here, a vastly disproportionate percentage of the homeless are both black and veterans. Now, THAT'S DISRESPECT!!

21 minutes ago, Iggles25 said:

An honest question to those posters more knowledgeable than I:

What immediate policy changes could be made to help diffuse the situation? 

https://www.fastcompany.com/90513105/these-are-8-simple-reforms-mayors-could-make-to-start-to-reduce-police-violence

1 hour ago, ManuManu said:

We’re talking about Kaepernick and kneeling during the anthem...

oh yeah I agree there too. His lack of respect for the flag and veterans. 

59 minutes ago, justrelax said:

So long as they're your standards, it would seem. They are not mine.

whether your standards are different than mine is besides the point. As long as we both hold everyone equally to our set standards. The problem is that there is a double standard. I dont support that. No one should. 

8 minutes ago, Iggles25 said:

An honest question to those posters more knowledgeable than I:

What immediate policy changes could be made to help diffuse the situation? 

I'm going to step back one level from your question, because I don't see the problem well enough defined to be addressable by specific individual policies.  The larger issue is that a considerable proportion of our population has reached the point where they essentially have no hope (have reached a place of "hopelessness").  That is true in the inner cities and thet is true in the coal mining regions throughout Appalachia (just to give two examples).  So, looking for ways to reduce the amount of hopelessness should be our goal.

One of the clear lessons of COVID 19 has been that our healthcare system is severely flawed ... producing a substantial portion of the hopelessness.  We need to keep the best of what we have ... doctors and hospitals with incentives to provide consistently high quality care, coupled with an "accounting" system that is simple to understand and consistently ad quickly gts fair payments to the healthcare professionals and organizations who provide the care.  The current infrastructure for submitting and paying claims runs well and should remain in the private sector.  That way many of the existing insurance companies would continue to operate as third-party claims administrators.  Their marketing departments would disappear, as would their actuarial departments.  By governmental policy (you did ask) the barriers to doing business in more than one state would end.  The actuarial risk pool would be nationwide.  I personalyn don't care if it is run by Warren Buffett (look at what he has already done with GEICO in other forms of insurance) or a governmental set of actuaries.

The vulnerabilities we have seen in the availability of certain healthcare supplies is both a challenge and an opportunity.  I'd love to see the government and private sector collaborate on a process for identifying those vulnerabilities, and embark on a plan to build domestic supply in communities where the inventory of hopelessness is high.  Retrain coal miners and automobile industry workers with the new skills necessary to work at new plants located in their community that make the healthcare supplies that have been so problematic during the COVID pandemic.  Bring hope to the communities that need the hope the most.

JMO

50 minutes ago, Allhaildawk said:

This is kind of my field. Didn’t happen...  I’m not going to comment over you on medicine, but it’s worth pointing out there is no evidence of this and no justifiable use of that force. 

I suppose you did not see the video but there sure is evidence. Undeniable evidence.

Of course it obviously wasnt justifiable use of force, what they did at the end. He was uncooperative but not threatening in any way. Theres no way he ever should have ended up dead. He probably deserved a little dead legger with the baton to weaken him up for a second so they could shove him in the car. Nothing more. (And before anyone thinks thats horrible and racist Id suggest the same treatment for a white person that causes the police to struggle for minutes trying to shove him in the car while he resists it as well).

As I was trying to find out before, after they gave up on getting him in the car because of his resistance, and they pinned him on the ground, Id really like to know what the next step was supposed to be. What were they waiting on? The only thing that makes sense to me is if there was a different vehicle with a larger door such as a van that they could more easily throw him in. But I dont know...

 

 

1 hour ago, justrelax said:

I believe its more complicated than that. There are jusifiable reasons why the whitey may be struggling and none of them have to be that he doesnt want to make it to the top. 

6 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I'm going to step back one level from your question, because I don't see the problem well enough defined to be addressable by specific individual policies.  The larger issue is that a considerable proportion of our population has reached the point where they essentially have no hope (have reached a place of "hopelessness").  That is true in the inner cities and thet is true in the coal mining regions throughout Appalachia (just to give two examples).  So, looking for ways to reduce the amount of hopelessness should be our goal.

One of the clear lessons of COVID 19 has been that our healthcare system is severely flawed ... producing a substantial portion of the hopelessness.  We need to keep the best of what we have ... doctors and hospitals with incentives to provide consistently high quality care, coupled with an "accounting" system that is simple to understand and consistently ad quickly gts fair payments to the healthcare professionals and organizations who provide the care.  The current infrastructure for submitting and paying claims runs well and should remain in the private sector.  That way many of the existing insurance companies would continue to operate as third-party claims administrators.  Their marketing departments would disappear, as would their actuarial departments.  By governmental policy (you did ask) the barriers to doing business in more than one state would end.  The actuarial risk pool would be nationwide.  I personalyn don't care if it is run by Warren Buffett (look at what he has already done with GEICO in other forms of insurance) or a governmental set of actuaries.

The vulnerabilities we have seen in the availability of certain healthcare supplies is both a challenge and an opportunity.  I'd love to see the government and private sector collaborate on a process for identifying those vulnerabilities, and embark on a plan to build domestic supply in communities where the inventory of hopelessness is high.  Retrain coal miners and automobile industry workers with the new skills necessary to work at new plants located in their community that make the healthcare supplies that have been so problematic during the COVID pandemic.  Bring hope to the communities that need the hope the most.

JMO

34 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Why?  The root cause to looting is to steal.   Even if it is to feed your starving child you are taking someone else’s property.  The root cause of arson is burning property.  Even if you are expressing rage over the reason for the protests.  Doesn’t make it lawful or right.  

I'm not sure that I agree with either of your root cause statements.  The "need" to steal is simply a symptom of a deeper problem.  Your example illuminates one such deeper cause, but in many cases the root cause is a lack of a moral compass on the part of the looter.

Regarding the expressing of rage, I agree with you that in most cases it isn't lawful, but whether it is right is a moral, not a legal judgment, and in many cases the laws are not right ... ot moral.

I've been bothered a lot about the use of the word "incident" to describe the death of Ahmaud Arbury and the death of George Floyd.  Arbury was not killed in an incident.  He was killed in an old-fashioned lynching.  Floyd was murdered.  He wasn't incidented.

Of all the people in the NFL, Drew Brees comes across as a genuinely decent human being, loyal to New Orleans when he had no reason to be and a leader. His comments highlight, in some respects, how different generations perceive the current mood, how they were brought up and their personal experience.  No one is wrong or right.

Perhaps, some of the younger African American players could some spend time listening to him outside of their social media bubble, understanding his perspective, as he does to them, rather than virtue signalling about how appalled they are (etc).  Shouting and demanding an apology because your feelings are hurt is something from Orwell's books and ultimately, does not make anything better in the long term.

The problem is, when outrage becomes a daily occurrence, when the wolf is in town, no one listens any more because they can't recognise the difference.

40 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

I'm all for protesting it's what made this country what it is....but be respectful, dont destroy private  property.....that said, if law enforcement keeps over stepping their boundaries,  bull rush them ,they are out numbered by the thousands. 

It may come to that

38 minutes ago, Iggles25 said:

An honest question to those posters more knowledgeable than I:

What immediate policy changes could be made to help diffuse the situation? 

A lot have to be cultural. Hear it or see it, speak out.  

But as to the police questions. Clear training and regulations on what actions are and are not allowed.  Body cams on at all times.  Independent body reviews all incidents where any weapon, including club, taser or gun, is drawn. Random audit of interactions by an independent body.   Consequences negotiated with the union.  Certain level for violations with a distinct action plan for each.  Accumulation to a certain level results in suspension and then termination.  Certain violations result in immediate suspension and focused termination subject to appeal rights.   Elect prosecutors that will prosecute crimes equally and fairly including abuse of power etc.   Statistical analysis of each officer arrest record by all factors that might result in discrimination.  
A strong look at what is criminal in this country.  Decriminalize vice like gambling, sex trade, marijuana, drug possession as opposed to trafficking etc.  Some crimes should be ticketed with an obligation to appear much like traffic violations.  Most traffic violations result in a citation not a ticket.   Allow a person being pursued for a traffic violation to proceed within the traffic laws until both the vehicle and the police reach a public place. Safer for both.   Traps need to be strongly monitored and avoided.  Perhaps require a warrant much like a wiretap does.  Eliminate no knock warrants.  Allow the expunging of criminal records over time.   Equal access to education as a right. Return of the right to vote after sentence is finished.  

This will be unpopular but it is my opinion. Work away from a gun culture.  We are not the Wild West but even if it was, I have my great grandfather’s flintlock rifle.  Very few folks had pistols.  Shotguns and rifles are really all you need for hunting.  Before anyone throws the 2nd amendment at me, really look at the history of what was allowed under it until rather recently.  Statistics also show less suicides, family shootings or killings and accidental shootings in households where the guns are hunting rifles and shotguns.  

1 hour ago, justrelax said:

That's because all liberals are whack jobs. It's a redundancy. 

I also think we better define "common," so that all can agree as to what the word means. 

I was watching a Peter, Paul and Mary concert on PBS this weekend and someone (I can't remember who) referred to the audience as a reunion of the members of the "Nixon Enemies List"  Liberals have been whack jobs for a long, long time ... often they are blowing in the wind.

24 minutes ago, Connecticut Eagle said:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90513105/these-are-8-simple-reforms-mayors-could-make-to-start-to-reduce-police-violence

Wow, pretty simple and reduces 72%.

I'm out.  It's been real! 

One thing I have appreciated over the past few years is how people deal with the same intense/stressful situations in a different way. We all process information in different ways and this affects how we react and what we do.

Sometimes, we assume that the Police, etc operate in the same prescribed manner and are the same race/background, when in fact it can be very different. Thus, it makes it hard to train people to react the same way to every situation.  Theoretically, it's simple, in practicality, it's not.

26 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

oh yeah I agree there too. His lack of respect for the flag and veterans. 

You are just trolling today.   Everyone in my family that entered service swore to protect the Constitution.  The flag is a symbol.  I would argue I see more disrespect fro the flag at political rallies and on advertising around the country specific holidays by my reading of the Flag Code. Do you recognize how recent the Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance are?

42 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

 

He shouldn't have to do everything in his power to "make things right".  It's been his locker room for 15 years.  He's done more for the city of NO than any other player on the team.  We as white men can everything we can to try and understand the struggles of our black brothers and listen to them but we are not guilty for other peoples racism.  It isn't up to us to ask for forgiveness of other people's wrong doing.  I'm really getting sick of that narrative.  Might as well ask all the cities to forgive us for what the white Antifa kids are doing because you know...white.   

They can be disappointed.  Humans aren't going to agree on every living thing and that's OK.  We are going to have different beliefs, values and thoughts on issues we deal with.  Brees stated his and backed it up with reasoning.  He said nothing wrong.  He didn't tell anyone else they were wrong only that he disagreed!  That's it.  He answered a question.  He didn't voluntarily come out and say this.  He was interviewed.  

Even if I disagreed with Drew Brees, I would respect the fact that he laid out his beliefs in a 100% polite, respectful way.  He explained why and backed it up.

Malcolm Jenkins on the other hand comes back using a profanity heavy statement and ended it by telling his own teammate to "Shut the F Up".   

The sad fact is Brees IS going to do everything in his power to make it right but this will be held over his head all year and the rest of his career.  It won't take but a minute for people to bring it back and make him start over from ground zero.

 

 

55 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Why?  The root cause to looting is to steal.   Even if it is to feed your starving child you are taking someone else’s property.  The root cause of arson is burning property.  Even if you are expressing rage over the reason for the protests.  Doesn’t make it lawful or right.  

Whats the root cause of stealing???Whats the root cause of property damage???

13 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I'm not sure that I agree with either of your root cause statements.  The "need" to steal is simply a symptom of a deeper problem.  Your example illuminates one such deeper cause, but in many cases the root cause is a lack of a moral compass on the part of the looter.

Regarding the expressing of rage, I agree with you that in most cases it isn't lawful, but whether it is right is a moral, not a legal judgment, and in many cases the laws are not right ... ot moral.

I've been bothered a lot about the use of the word "incident" to describe the death of Ahmaud Arbury and the death of George Floyd.  Arbury was not killed in an incident.  He was killed in an old-fashioned lynching.  Floyd was murdered.  He wasn't incidented.

That’s fair.  Good to have your input. Drop in occasionally as you have been missed. 

16 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Wow, pretty simple and reduces 72%.

the "exhaust all other means before shooting" could be a big problem that results in a lot more officers losing life, or ending up behind bars when they shouldnt. 

Sometimes with a violent person coming at you you dont have time go complete the checklist to talk/deescalate, and if that doesnt work, use pepper spray, and if that doesnt work use a club, and if that doesnt work use a stun gun, and if that doesnt work then use your gun. 

I mean come on. Its just not realistic when an officer has a split second to react in a life or death situation where the fight or flight response is activated and he is going on survival instinct. 

8 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

You are just trolling today.   Everyone in my family that entered service swore to protect the Constitution.  The flag is a symbol.  I would argue I see more disrespect fro the flag at political rallies and on advertising around the country specific holidays by my reading of the Flag Code. Do you recognize how recent the Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance are?

Not conducive to a meaningful discussion. You gotta do better.