13 minutes ago, Utebird said:

totally agree, murder can still be a question of moral relativism but in the case of Dorns death it was murder, and one can question the morale relativity of the looting and the root cause of the looting/rioting that led to the murder without minimizing the murder.

Dorn was the victim of people commiting a violent act, floyd was the victim of people who had taken an oath to uphold the law and protect the people they serve, looters took no such oath.

David Dorn’s death, the death of the Federal Officer in Oakland, the death of Arbery, the death of George Floyd were all acts of violence.  I don’t see the question of moral relativism in any of these cases.  All are bad.  

5 minutes ago, WentzFan11 said:

There’s not really a reason for the national anthem during games anyway. I’m sure it will be removed in the future. 

Removing it is more disrespectful than kneeling, imo. If both sides just showed a little more tolerance it would go a long way 

1 minute ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Removing it is more disrespectful than kneeling, imo. If both sides just showed a little more tolerance it would go a long way 

I don’t think it matters that much. As I said earlier, I’m sure veterans would prefer you give them the assistance they need rather than salute the flag. 
 

We as Americans talk big game about our veterans, yet they aren’t treated properly once discharged. 

8 minutes ago, WentzFan11 said:

I don’t think it matters that much. As I said earlier, I’m sure veterans would prefer you give them the assistance they need rather than salute the flag. 
 

We as Americans talk big game about our veterans, yet they aren’t treated properly once discharged. 

Not going to argue the second point. I just think it’s kinda ridiculous a compromise can’t be made so it’s just removed entirely. It’s like two kids who can’t play with the same toy so mom takes it away from both

31 minutes ago, Utebird said:

totally agree, murder can still be a question of moral relativism but in the case of Dorns death it was murder, and one can question the morale relativity of the looting and the root cause of the looting/rioting that led to the murder without minimizing the murder.

Dorn was the victim of people commiting a violent act, floyd was the victim of people who had taken an oath to uphold the law and protect the people they serve, looters took no such oath.

Nope.  Tragedy is tragedy.  I'm not about to rank them.  Both deaths were 100% unnecessary.  Both deaths were 100% senseless.  

16 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

David Dorn’s death, the death of the Federal Officer in Oakland, the death of Arbery, the death of George Floyd were all acts of violence.  I don’t see the question of moral relativism in any of these cases.  All are bad.  

Yup.

12 minutes ago, WentzFan11 said:

It’s insane to think about just how recent those things were. 
 

Crazy to imagine some are referring to this time period when chanting a certain slogan. 

You know, I still hear a lot of racism in folks the age of my father-in-law down there.  I am still proud my folks were somewhat active in the civil rights movement and when our neighborhood was assigned to an integrated school and all the kids from my elementary school had their parents charter a bus to take them to a segregated school, my folks sent my sister and me to the integrated school. It was the right thing to do.  
I recall years earlier as a kid in New Orleans at the grocery store seeing the colored water fountain.  Now, I was barely old enough to read the words.  Well to me, colored water was I just used the EMB's #1 Cliché.  I remember to this day hoping it was cherry and not lime.  As I went to get a drink, a man grabbed me and told me that was for n......., a word I had never heard, so I was confused.  My dad, all 5’ 6” of him, stood as tall as he could and said his son and anybody else should be able to drink from any fountain they wanted to and then leaned down and had a big drink.  I was crestfallen because it wasn’t colored water at all. Took a sip anyway.   Later that day, my folks sat my sister and me down and tried to explain segregation and why it was wrong.  I think from that day forward I heard a little more of the prejudice and discrimination around me.   

3 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Not going to argue the second point. I just think it’s kinda ridiculous a compromise can’t be made so it’s just removed entirely. It’s like two kids who can’t play with the same toy so mom takes it away from both

I agree, but you already have some networks not even showing the anthem on TV. No one wants to have the difficult conversations if they can just make the problem disappear. 

So funny the message board censor my sugar and packet flavor drink mix.   
 
We have made strides since my youth.  We will move forward.   I had dreamed that by this time In my life prejudice would be gone but have come to realize it is a slower journey than I had hoped for and we have to keep pushing into the wind.

3 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

You know, I still hear a lot of racism in folks the age of my father-in-law down there.  I am still proud my folks were somewhat active in the civil rights movement and when our neighborhood was assigned to an integrated school and all the kids from my elementary school had their parents charter a bus to take them to a segregated school, my folks sent my sister and me to the integrated school. It was the right thing to do.  
I recall years earlier as a kid in New Orleans at the grocery store seeing the colored water fountain.  Now, I was barely old enough to read the words.  Well to me, colored water was I just used the EMB's #1 Cliché.  I remember to this day hoping it was cherry and not lime.  As I went to get a drink, a man grabbed me and told me that was for n......., a word I had never heard, so I was confused.  My dad, all 5’ 6” of him, stood as tall as he could and said his son and anybody else should be able to drink from any fountain they wanted to and then leaned down and had a big drink.  I was crestfallen because it wasn’t colored water at all. Took a sip anyway.   Later that day, my folks sat my sister and me down and tried to explain segregation and why it was wrong.  I think from that day forward I heard a little more of the prejudice and discrimination around me.   

Thank you for sharing this.

14 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

You know, I still hear a lot of racism in folks the age of my father-in-law down there.  I am still proud my folks were somewhat active in the civil rights movement and when our neighborhood was assigned to an integrated school and all the kids from my elementary school had their parents charter a bus to take them to a segregated school, my folks sent my sister and me to the integrated school. It was the right thing to do.  
I recall years earlier as a kid in New Orleans at the grocery store seeing the colored water fountain.  Now, I was barely old enough to read the words.  Well to me, colored water was I just used the EMB's #1 Cliché.  I remember to this day hoping it was cherry and not lime.  As I went to get a drink, a man grabbed me and told me that was for n......., a word I had never heard, so I was confused.  My dad, all 5’ 6” of him, stood as tall as he could and said his son and anybody else should be able to drink from any fountain they wanted to and then leaned down and had a big drink.  I was crestfallen because it wasn’t colored water at all. Took a sip anyway.   Later that day, my folks sat my sister and me down and tried to explain segregation and why it was wrong.  I think from that day forward I heard a little more of the prejudice and discrimination around me.   

I’m dark skinned Hispanic and there are still areas in Philadelphia I don’t feel comfortable in. Just a few years ago some guy tried to run me over in his car as I walked around penny pack. 
 

I’ve had way too many racist encounters for a person in their 20s living in a progressive city. I can’t even imagine what some people deal with living in the South. 

You want to watch a good you tube video

Watch Candace Owens on George flyod

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

David Dorn’s death, the death of the Federal Officer in Oakland, the death of Arbery, the death of George Floyd were all acts of violence.  I don’t see the question of moral relativism in any of these cases.  All are bad.  

murder is bad yet still we attempt to justify it all the time.War is organized murder. Nations justify murder for their own reasons all the time. America justified genocide of native americans, how is it  different when a rioter/looter justifies taking life in an act of protesting injustice? 

I dont know the answers, i know violence doesnt stop violence it increases it and killing people in the name if injustice furthers injustice.

Its a mess but i wouldnt put the murder of dorns death in the same boat as floyds. Dorns life wasnt taken by public servants whom swore an oath to protect and serve.

There are so many videos like this from all over the Country. As each day passes it gets harder to believe it’s only a few bad apples. 

There’s also a video I won’t share of a cop pushing an old man and a group of cops walk past him as he bleeds from his head. Someone from the national guard comes to his aid. The cops claimed he tripped. 

I have no idea what can be done to fix this but it seems like we’ve reached a boiling point. 

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Nope.  Tragedy is tragedy.  I'm not about to rank them.  Both deaths were 100% unnecessary.  Both deaths were 100% senseless.  

Yup.

Its not about ranking its about persoective and taking away from a message. While dorns death was tragic and senseless lumping it in as equal impact of floyds death detracts from the message at hand of police brutality and racism. Its akin to saying "all lives matter" Which i agree all lives do matter but the focus right now is black lives matter. Its like if i broke my foot and the doctor put me in a body cast and when i asked why? He replied All bones matter. Yes all bones matter but putting me in a body cast isnt helpful. The focus now is on black lives matter because its an obvious issue, does that devalue the loss of other innocent death, absolutely not but if people were really upset about the loss of innocent death theyd protest every day, they would protest war and every little thing that leads to violence. I agree violence is senseless and all life has value but focusing on all lives matter detracts and deflects from the current issue.

7 minutes ago, WentzFan11 said:

There are so many videos like this from all over the Country. As each day passes it gets harder to believe it’s only a few bad apples. 
 

I have no idea what can be done to fix this but it seems like we’ve reached a boiling point. 

cops ,Military, para military are tools to protect the interests foreign and domestic of those in power.

6 hours ago, Iggles25 said:

An honest question to those posters more knowledgeable than I:

What immediate police changes could be made to help diffuse the situation? 

FYP

6 hours ago, Iggles25 said:

An honest question to those posters more knowledgeable than I:

What immediate police changes could be made to help diffuse the situation? 

FYP

2 hours ago, WentzFan11 said:

I’m dark skinned Hispanic and there are still areas in Philadelphia I don’t feel comfortable in. Just a few years ago some guy tried to run me over in his car as I walked around penny pack. 
 

I’ve had way too many racist encounters for a person in their 20s living in a progressive city. I can’t even imagine what some people deal with living in the South. 

I am sad to hear that.  I cannot imagine that experience.  

In college a group of us rented a house in a middle class black neighborhood. Unlike some who seem to suggest some reverse racism, we always felt welcome even though most of us were white.  I don’t know that I have ever been scared in any community though and I know that isn’t true for most darker skinned people (and women).  

But you know, most of my family are good loving folk that would bend over backwards to help others in need regardless of what they look like.  They got where they got through hard work and perseverance.  Any handouts would almost be invisible to all of us.   But, and this is the giant elephant in the room when we hear "white privilege”, none of us ever started out with a strike against us based on the color of our skin.   Maybe we need a better term but I think we understand the gist.  But I think many white folk that are paycheck to paycheck poor or worse have trouble with understanding they are privileged from their perspective. 

Since Matt visited us today, a little poetry:

---

"Judge Softly”

"Pray, don’t find fault with the man that limps,
Or stumbles along the road.
Unless you have worn the moccasins he wears,
Or stumbled beneath the same load.

There may be tears in his soles that hurt
Though hidden away from view.
The burden he bears placed on your back
May cause you to stumble and fall, too.

Don’t sneer at the man who is down today
Unless you have felt the same blow
That caused his fall or felt the shame
That only the fallen know.

You may be strong, but still the blows
That were his, unknown to you in the same way,
May cause you to stagger and fall, too.

Don’t be too harsh with the man that sins.
Or pelt him with words, or stone, or disdain.
Unless you are sure you have no sins of your own,
And it’s only wisdom and love that your heart contains.

For you know if the tempter’s voice
Should whisper as soft to you,
As it did to him when he went astray,
It might cause you to falter, too.

Just walk a mile in his moccasins
Before you abuse, criticize and accuse.
If just for one hour, you could find a way
To see through his eyes, instead of your own muse.

I believe you’d be surprised to see
That you’ve been blind and narrow-minded, even unkind.
There are people on reservations and in the ghettos
Who have so little hope, and too much worry on their minds.

Brother, there but for the grace of God go you and I.
Just for a moment, slip into his mind and traditions
And see the world through his spirit and eyes
Before you cast a stone or falsely judge his conditions.

Remember to walk a mile in his moccasins
And remember the lessons of humanity taught to you by your elders.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave
In other people’s lives, our kindnesses and generosity.

Take the time to walk a mile in his moccasins.”

1 hour ago, Utebird said:

murder is bad yet still we attempt to justify it all the time.War is organized murder. Nations justify murder for their own reasons all the time. America justified genocide of native americans, how is it  different when a rioter/looter justifies taking life in an act of protesting injustice? 

I dont know the answers, i know violence doesnt stop violence it increases it and killing people in the name if injustice furthers injustice.

Its a mess but i wouldnt put the murder of dorns death in the same boat as floyds. Dorns life wasnt taken by public servants whom swore an oath to protect and serve.

Don’t look to me to justify sending young sons to die in battle from young sons.  Don’t look to me to justify modern warfare that included bombing civilians.  War is horrible and often unjust.  There is no less unjustness in the murder of Dorns than Floyd.  

I do ask the Christians in here perseverance when I reference the Old Testament.  God said, thou shalt not kill.  As far as I know He didn’t say war was better or death to an ex-cop protecting a friend was less than death by a cop abusing a prisoner.  Frankly as an agnostic, I never understood any distinctions by any Muslims, Jews or Christians on the commandment and Buddhists and Hindus on Ahimsa.  I suspect the thing about loving your neighbor didn’t just apply to the person next door too.  
 

1 hour ago, WentzFan11 said:

There are so many videos like this from all over the Country. As each day passes it gets harder to believe it’s only a few bad apples. 
 

I have no idea what can be done to fix this but it seems like we’ve reached a boiling point. 

The problem with the videos is the lack of context.  On its surface, this looks horrible. I don’t know why the woman was being restrained. Not convinced that was a deliberate grope as it didn’t look like it.  It’s possible these younger folk need to learn from us old folks. The most effective approach is to lie limp on the ground and make several of them pick up your limp body.  You are under no obligation to help them. If I was that gal, I would have been more than happy to oblige and lie limp on the ground.  

39 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

The problem with the videos is the lack of context.  On its surface, this looks horrible. I don’t know why the woman was being restrained. Not convinced that was a deliberate grope as it didn’t look like it.  It’s possible these younger folk need to learn from us old folks. The most effective approach is to lie limp on the ground and make several of them pick up your limp body.  You are under no obligation to help them. If I was that gal, I would have been more than happy to oblige and lie limp on the ground.  

I shared this specific video because it isn’t graphic, but still helps highlight the problem we’re facing. Though...Does it matter what that woman did? Their job is to defuse the situation. That’s a group of cops beating someone when there are more than enough officers to restrain her nonviolently. Thats not including the other woman who was pushed to the ground. There are many many more videos that are obviously an abuse of power if you want to see what’s going on.

6 hours ago, BigEFly said:

So funny the message board censor my sugar and packet flavor drink mix.   
 
We have made strides since my youth.  We will move forward.   I had dreamed that by this time In my life prejudice would be gone but have come to realize it is a slower journey than I had hoped for and we have to keep pushing into the wind.

That was like that on the old board, and aside from now being able to say Dick Vermiel’s name, they kept the board filters the same. Personally, I think they ought to do away with that one. 

4 hours ago, WentzFan11 said:

There are so many videos like this from all over the Country. As each day passes it gets harder to believe it’s only a few bad apples. 

There’s also a video I won’t share of a cop pushing an old man and a group of cops walk past him as he bleeds from his head. Someone from the national guard comes to his aid. The cops claimed he tripped. 

I have no idea what can be done to fix this but it seems like we’ve reached a boiling point. 

Those cops should be fired. That must be one tough chick too because the first several whacks of the baton seemed to have no effect on her. 

51 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Those cops should be fired. That must be one tough chick too because the first several whacks of the baton seemed to have no effect on her. 

That's the trouble with context. Who knows maybe she was on something. I was pretty surprised as well that she didn't go down. Honestly it didn't look like a grope to me, looked like a squirmy woman and a cop trying to control her. Not going to say anyone deserved to be fired until I know more.

7 hours ago, Utebird said:

Its not about ranking its about persoective and taking away from a message. While dorns death was tragic and senseless lumping it in as equal impact of floyds death detracts from the message at hand of police brutality and racism. Its akin to saying "all lives matter" Which i agree all lives do matter but the focus right now is black lives matter. Its like if i broke my foot and the doctor put me in a body cast and when i asked why? He replied All bones matter. Yes all bones matter but putting me in a body cast isnt helpful. The focus now is on black lives matter because its an obvious issue, does that devalue the loss of other innocent death, absolutely not but if people were really upset about the loss of innocent death theyd protest every day, they would protest war and every little thing that leads to violence. I agree violence is senseless and all life has value but focusing on all lives matter detracts and deflects from the current issue.

Nope nope nope.  You can't go back into history, find injustices and use them to justify what's happening now.  Let me help you out.  The treatment of the Native Americans is a shameful one in the history of this country.  The treatment of black slaves is another blot on the country.  Both groups are working towards more equal treatment, but haven't gotten there yet.   But, let me help you with something... saying that all lives matter is not a deflection or a counter-movement against Black Lives Matter.  I try to live my life according to the commandment - love your neighbor as yourself.  (to give some context of that to BigEFly, its in the spoiler tag)

Spoiler

When Jesus said that was the second great commandment, he told a parable of 'the Good Samaritan'.  Today, that parable has lost most of his true meaning, because not nearly as many people today understand the context of that.  The Samaritans were descendants from the northern tribes of Israel, who intermarried with the groups that lived around them, directly against God's commandment not to, because it would pull them away from Him and they would start to follow after the foreign gods.  The Jews hated the Samaritans for having done this, literally hundreds of years before...  there was at that time a "racial" divide between the groups.  The Samaritans were banned from worship in the Temple in Jerusalem.  And as a result, the Samaritans hated the Jews just about as much as the Jews hated the Samaritans.  In the parable, a Jewish man is beaten and robbed by bandits, and a priest walks by him, then a Levite (a worker in the service of God)... both Jews didn't see that man as a neighbor, but rather as an obstacle to be avoided.  The third man, a Samaritan (aka, the most hated type of person in the eyes of the Jews) walks by, and he takes pity on the man, he gives first aid and comfort, puts him on his animal and drops him off at a local inn, giving instructions and money (roughly a month's salary) to cover the expenses for this man's recovery.  And he promises to return back that way and pay any more that might be needed to help the man heal.   That is how far the neighbor definition goes, according to Christ... it really means 'Love every one'.   Jesus later says we are to 'Love our enemies'.  And if you love your enemies, pretty soon, you find that you have none.  At least in how you feel about them, though they may feel that way about you.

 

So, I am not going to draw a line in the sand and say that this one matters, but that one doesn't.  David Dorn was a black man, killed in the streets, filmed on Facebook live.  George Floyd was a black man, killed in the streets, filmed on a cell phone.  Both lives are lost, both events are tragic.  One leads to rioting in the streets, causing more deaths... the other is barely discussed, because it happened as a direct result of the rioting in the streets.  And talking about that would mean that we'd have to widen our scope.  Its easy to point to George Floyd and say that's the only Black Life that Matters, but if Black Lives Matter, and that's the whole point of the rioting, looting, and other violence on the street... then David Dorn wouldn't be dead.  But, his black life didn't matter.  And like the Jewish man in the parable of Jesus... those who were supposed to be fighting FOR him, were the ones filming him and leaving him there on the street to die.

 

The rioting, looting and violence is what is taking away from the message.  I'll say no more on this matter, but I'll give the final word to this woman. 

 

Good conversation last night guys, really appreciate talking with guys who have different perspectives, just wish the rest of the country was able to have open dialogue to solve issues rather than resorting to violence and hate.  For the most part we are able to have open discussion, although frustrating at times, and listen to one another.  What brings us back together is our love for the Eagles.  Why can't the country left, right, moderate or whatever have these discussions and come back at the end because of our love for the country?

Unfortunately, we are going to see more double standards today as George Floyd's memorial service is televised.  For months Americans who lost their loved ones due to the virus were told no family gathering, no funerals and no mourning together.  Will be interesting to see if keep it small and keep distance or if they show us rows packed with people (Al Sharpton included).

 

Side note, this is the first weekend a big event I look forward to has been cancelled.  For the history buffs in here if you haven't gone to WW2 Weekend in Reading I highly suggest it.  I volunteer there and it's just an amazing experience.